Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Backroad Breeders

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:34 pm

the point I`m trying to get to is to justify my current thoughts on registration/pedigrees, and all the traditional stuff registered breeders have done and still do...Instead of AAA being put on probation, I`ve put a lot of traditional methods of breeding cattle on probation until I see I`m failing without them; thinking that the only thing I`m really giving up is "saleability" in the registered game...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MikeJ



Posts : 18
Join date : 2010-09-25
Location : central Montana

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:49 pm

edited - off topic


Last edited by MikeJ on Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : off topic)
Back to top Go down
Tom D
Admin


Posts : 535
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:58 pm

I weaned calves at my home farm the other day, and I weighed every calf and every cow, even recips. I made my own little spreadsheet yesterday morning that shows the weaning weights, the weights adjusted to 205 days, the cow weight, and the percentage between the two. I've carried that sheet with me the past two days, glancing at it throughout the day as I do my chores and come and go through the cattle. It's very interesting to see which cows I thought were doing great that really weren't, and vice-versa. Today I thought to myself, Am I learning how to breed cattle or Am I learning how not to breed cattle? What's the difference between the two? Which is more important? Any sage advice?
Back to top Go down
Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:53 am

We all have to make those decisions for ourselves.

I have a hard time figuring out why to weigh anything. We haven't had any significant rain for nearly three months. The grass has been dormant for two months. The calf weights will not impress anyone. The calves are healthy and doing well, the cows are in good shape, but dry and short does not produce what green and growing will produce. Weight is mostly nutrition and management. I have cows to harvest my grass. Their performance varies with the year. This is normal.

If I were to try to impress someone with weights, at what cost would it be and to what benefit would it lead. I have had up to 849 pound weaning weights. It didn't help me select better cattle and I remember the feed bill as much as the monster calves.



I haven't convinced myself why to weigh cows again. Last time I weighed them it just ended up causing confusion. How can bulls that are too small produce cows that are too big?

This was the first year we didn't even get the calf scale out of the basement. The cows appreciated it as much as we did. All three kids could watch calves born on green dew covered grass in the crisp morning air of May and just enjoy it.

The AAA will get a few hundred less out of me this year with no weights- which is 100% due to their decision to withold EPD's. MMI will get a few thousand less out of me this year for DNA. I will just continue to enjoy cows doing what cows were made to do. Nothing more, nothing less.
Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:09 am

Keystone wrote:
We all have to make those decisions for ourselves.

I have a hard time figuring out why to weigh anything. We haven't had any significant rain for nearly three months. The grass has been dormant for two months. The calf weights will not impress anyone. The calves are healthy and doing well, the cows are in good shape, but dry and short does not produce what green and growing will produce. Weight is mostly nutrition and management. I have cows to harvest my grass. Their performance varies with the year. This is normal.

If I were to try to impress someone with weights, at what cost would it be and to what benefit would it lead. I have had up to 849 pound weaning weights. It didn't help me select better cattle and I remember the feed bill as much as the monster calves.



I haven't convinced myself why to weigh cows again. Last time I weighed them it just ended up causing confusion. How can bulls that are too small produce cows that are too big?

This was the first year we didn't even get the calf scale out of the basement. The cows appreciated it as much as we did. All three kids could watch calves born on green dew covered grass in the crisp morning air of May and just enjoy it.

The AAA will get a few hundred less out of me this year with no weights- which is 100% due to their decision to withold EPD's. MMI will get a few thousand less out of me this year for DNA. I will just continue to enjoy cows doing what cows were made to do. Nothing more, nothing less.
well put as always Kent; most all data collection is, as DF implies, about creating proof to sell something for more money...the best proof of my genetics and management style is my bank account...should we make all registered breeders reveal a financial statement like we do politicians? that disclosure hasn`t made better government...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Tom D
Admin


Posts : 535
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:17 pm

I disagree about data collection. I think breeding is half art and half science. When most people start out, they try to do everything with science because they haven't developed any artistic talent yet. If you never get beyond this science only stage you never become a breeder. And you probably create a lot of really crappy cattle in the process. Mike is right that time is the most valuable commodity in cattle breeding, the only way to learn the "art" side is with time, experience, and learning from your mistakes. This brings me to why I weigh. It is not to show everyone else how great I am (Jim), it is to show myself where I need to improve. It is a system of checks and balances to make sure that I correctly develop my artistic side and don't continue down a wrong path under false illusions. I'm sure that there are some experienced breeders that can always guess a BW to within 2 or 3 pounds, a weaning weight to within 10 or 20, and a cow weight to within 50, but I can't yet. And most guys that think they can are full of shit. So I weigh because it helps me to hone my craft and exposes my mistakes (breeding and management) so that I can learn from them. When I look at my data, I'm usually in the pasture not at the computer. I'm looking at relationships between cow weights and birth weights and weaning weights, trying to figure out the trends and if they match the EPD's. I look forward to the day when I can rely on the artist inside me to create beautiful, consistant, efficient little cows; but until then I'd better keep double checking. A Picasso by any other name is just a weird, ugly painting. geek
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:45 pm

Tom D wrote:
I disagree about data collection. I think breeding is half art and half science. When most people start out, they try to do everything with science because they haven't developed any artistic talent yet. If you never get beyond this science only stage you never become a breeder. And you probably create a lot of really crappy cattle in the process. Mike is right that time is the most valuable commodity in cattle breeding, the only way to learn the "art" side is with time, experience, and learning from your mistakes. This brings me to why I weigh. It is not to show everyone else how great I am (Jim), it is to show myself where I need to improve. It is a system of checks and balances to make sure that I correctly develop my artistic side and don't continue down a wrong path under false illusions. I'm sure that there are some experienced breeders that can always guess a BW to within 2 or 3 pounds, a weaning weight to within 10 or 20, and a cow weight to within 50, but I can't yet. And most guys that think they can are full of shit. So I weigh because it helps me to hone my craft and exposes my mistakes (breeding and management) so that I can learn from them. When I look at my data, I'm usually in the pasture not at the computer. I'm looking at relationships between cow weights and birth weights and weaning weights, trying to figure out the trends and if they match the EPD's. I look forward to the day when I can rely on the artist inside me to create beautiful, consistant, efficient little cows; but until then I'd better keep double checking. A Picasso by any other name is just a weird, ugly painting. geek
everyone needs to measure what they find usefully commensurate with the effort involved that they require to help them improve their cattle be it weight, measure, count, whatever...I know you are sincere in your above post because you aren`t selling something....
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
OAK LANE FARM



Posts : 95
Join date : 2010-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:55 am


My son is looking at investing is a small draft of Gary Funk cattle so we went on an inspection trip yesterday. The Shoshone influenced cattle looked good as always.
Back to top Go down
OAK LANE FARM



Posts : 95
Join date : 2010-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:01 am


This is a typical Lodge of Wye grandaughter at Gary Funk's. He must have about 15 out of the John Cotton bred bull and they look good to me. This is the Lodge of Volga 816 bull.


Last edited by OAK LANE FARM on Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:13 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Keystone wrote:
We all have to make those decisions for ourselves.

I have a hard time figuring out why to weigh anything. We haven't had any significant rain for nearly three months. The grass has been dormant for two months. The calf weights will not impress anyone. The calves are healthy and doing well, the cows are in good shape, but dry and short does not produce what green and growing will produce. Weight is mostly nutrition and management. I have cows to harvest my grass. Their performance varies with the year. This is normal.

If I were to try to impress someone with weights, at what cost would it be and to what benefit would it lead. I have had up to 849 pound weaning weights. It didn't help me select better cattle and I remember the feed bill as much as the monster calves.



I haven't convinced myself why to weigh cows again. Last time I weighed them it just ended up causing confusion. How can bulls that are too small produce cows that are too big?

This was the first year we didn't even get the calf scale out of the basement. The cows appreciated it as much as we did. All three kids could watch calves born on green dew covered grass in the crisp morning air of May and just enjoy it.

The AAA will get a few hundred less out of me this year with no weights- which is 100% due to their decision to withold EPD's. MMI will get a few thousand less out of me this year for DNA. I will just continue to enjoy cows doing what cows were made to do. Nothing more, nothing less.
well put as always Kent; most all data collection is, as DF implies, about creating proof to sell something for more money...the best proof of my genetics and management style is my bank account...should we make all registered breeders reveal a financial statement like we do politicians? that disclosure hasn`t made better government...

What percent of your success is genetic and what percent is management style? Holding genetics constant, what is the variation in profit due to management style?
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:51 pm

well, weaning weight accounts for 5% of the variation in profitability...but longevity/replacement costs second behind number one factor in profitability ,feed costs{ primariliy management}
so, again, I opt for things I can change genetically to minimize problems...I guess that creates longevity...in the cow, and me Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:00 pm

In the data that states weaning weight accounts for 5% of the variation in profit, what is the range in weaning weights? What is the range in longevity?
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:58 am

df wrote:
In the data that states weaning weight accounts for 5% of the variation in profit, what is the range in weaning weights? What is the range in longevity?
http://pas.fass.org/content/17/4/295.full.pdf
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:37 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
In the data that states weaning weight accounts for 5% of the variation in profit, what is the range in weaning weights? What is the range in longevity?
http://pas.fass.org/content/17/4/295.full.pdf

I did not see a weaning weight range. Would 500-600 lbs probably catch these herds or would you expect them to be a bit bigger (or smaller)?
Back to top Go down
OAK LANE FARM



Posts : 95
Join date : 2010-09-25

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:54 am


These heifers are by a Wye-Shoshone influenced bull at Funk Angus Ranch , MT
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:15 pm

OAK LANE FARM wrote:

These heifers are by a Wye-Shoshone influenced bull at Funk Angus Ranch , MT
is Gary breeding parent or production stock these days?
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
shilow angus



Posts : 57
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:36 pm

MKeeney wrote:
The internet gives everyone a presence and opportunity to display their product on a more even footing with the outfits bankrolled with ready cash from outside the cattle business. While some cherish the rich and famous breeders, I`ve always been for the little guy, the underdog, who with his own money {or lack thereof} stays the course, and improves his cattle. He is the lifeblood of the breed, while the rich is the lifeblood of the registered associations and societies.
With all the searching for great cattle, the hottest semen, or the oldest and rarest, this is a story about, by his own admission, a herd built from culls.
Tom Gay {Will G} and his family have bought a few cattle and bulls from us for at least 20 years now; and a couple of weeks ago, I finally got my act together and paid Tom a visit.
I was half way there when I dropped off a couple of bulls in this Eastern Ky area; typical of the small farms of the area.

These hills had not been strip mined, just cleared of trees and sown in grass, and because of the soil and terrain...the grass is always thirsty. Harold has bought three bulls from me now; I`m pretty sure farming isn`t his sole income. But in typical EKY fashion, he keeps things to himself; probably a distrust of outsiders from prohibition days Smile
Arriving at Tom`s near Oneida, KY, and home of the Oneida Baptist Institute{a place/school for troubled kids; many DC foreign diplomats kids Tom tells me}, I looked up to see how much Blue Sky there was in store for us...clear as a crystal Smile

Joe Dunkum, long time friend , and cattle breeding ally, made the trip as well.

through the creekside pastures, the cattle go up to the strip mine grass in the hills. We didn`t drive up; afraid we would meet a coal truck on the way down...coal is King. The bottom creek has been flooded with strip waste several times, yet the fish and minnows persist.

the 12 year old double bred Encore cow that has given rise to Tom`s linebreeding program..

Tom has the courage to use the inbred`s though they be less phenotypically pleasing than some of his other calves...

same lineage; less inbreeding

the Bonsma type cow was never taught to me in Livestock Judging; instead, a steer conformation with a cow head was the ideal,,,,I think Professor Bonsma would be pleased with this cow...

another shot

sometimes it takes the neighbors Gelbvieh bull jumping the fence to insure everything is working like a Tru-Line masterpiece Smile

the kind that most everyone wants in Ky; the kind very few need...

because Tom`s cows run maybe 10 to 20 per group on various little farms he rents in the creek bottoms; he needs 5 or 6 bulls...saves money by using his own. This one had already looked at him kinda cross-eyed or something, so he was likely breeding his last cows..

this fall calved linebred two year old tells me things are progressing on schedule ...no glamour, no advertising, respect in the community because he makes a living the old fashioned way...he earns it...and do his cattle...the old fashioned way...commercially

A good trip, and a good education for me...time still the most expensive requirement to breed good cattle...



Mike I weighed In the The bull that looked at me cross-eyed.. Smile ..1150 lb at 19 months old ....Weined at 600 lb wintered on fescue hay 5lb hulls/corn gluton till mid march Then grass only. Weighed 950 in june when turned in with 13 heifers....Real world results from the land of fescue and commercial cattle.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:50 pm

Tom,
I should have bleached the green color out of those pictures; then you could have made those weight gains like the registered breeders...ever notice that it never rains at registered breeders farms/ranches...everything their cattle do is always despite drought...damn cattle always fat; but always suffering from a drought...if we brought them drought ravaged registered cattle to good ole warm Kentucky; we could dry lot them year round, and think of the beef they would produce...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
shilow angus



Posts : 57
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:56 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Tom,
I should have bleached the green color out of those pictures; then you could have made those weight gains like the registered breeders...ever notice that it never rains at registered breeders farms/ranches...everything their cattle do is always despite drought...damn cattle always fat; but always suffering from a drought...if we brought them drought ravaged registered cattle to good ole warm Kentucky; we could dry lot them year round, and think of the beef they would produce...


Not bragging on the bull.....Just pointing out in the real world 900 lb weaning and 1300 lb yearling weights are not necessary....
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:53 pm

shilow angus wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Tom,
I should have bleached the green color out of those pictures; then you could have made those weight gains like the registered breeders...ever notice that it never rains at registered breeders farms/ranches...everything their cattle do is always despite drought...damn cattle always fat; but always suffering from a drought...if we brought them drought ravaged registered cattle to good ole warm Kentucky; we could dry lot them year round, and think of the beef they would produce...


Not bragging on the bull.....Just pointing out in the real world 900 lb weaning and 1300 lb yearling weights are not necessary....
especially when the goal is commercial profit; not registered hyperbole...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
shilow angus



Posts : 57
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:24 pm

MKeeney wrote:
shilow angus wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Tom,
I should have bleached the green color out of those pictures; then you could have made those weight gains like the registered breeders...ever notice that it never rains at registered breeders farms/ranches...everything their cattle do is always despite drought...damn cattle always fat; but always suffering from a drought...if we brought them drought ravaged registered cattle to good ole warm Kentucky; we could dry lot them year round, and think of the beef they would produce...


Not bragging on the bull.....Just pointing out in the real world 900 lb weaning and 1300 lb yearling weights are not necessary....
especially when the goal is commercial profit; not registered hyperbole...


Correct.....That was my point.


Back to top Go down
PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:40 pm

I have no problem with 900 lb weaning weights as long as it is done on the same feed resources I am using now Very Happy Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Oldtimer

avatar

Posts : 308
Join date : 2010-10-04
Location : Northeast Montana

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:59 pm

Quote :
MKeeney wrote:
The internet gives everyone a presence and opportunity to display their product on a more even footing with the outfits bankrolled with ready cash from outside the cattle business. While some cherish the rich and famous breeders, I`ve always been for the little guy, the underdog, who with his own money {or lack thereof} stays the course, and improves his cattle. He is the lifeblood of the breed, while the rich is the lifeblood of the registered associations and societies.

Maybe one of the MKeeney quotes I most agree with....

I have always bought from the smaller breeder- and the person working on their own rather than put my money into the corporate/big time breeders--- mainly for two reasons--number 1 is that I think they know their cattle 10 times better than the Big timers that have to hire all the managers and shit shovel folks-- and number 2 is that those are the folks I support and believe in too that will maintain the breed- no matter if they stay with the registered cattle or not...

I still believe the "best" bulls ever have been in some commercial cattlemens pasture- never recognized- and that many of these bulls raised by these smaller breeders are the undiscovered "diamonds in the rough'-- but without the emotion, commotion, and big dollar promotion some of the best herds and breeding programs are overlooked....Just like much of the C H - John Hamilton bloodlines were unknown but to a small area-but are now being found to be so good...

Be it the current local folks like Greg from Cole Creek- Taylor Orr - Gary Funk- Lee Humbert- Glen Meir- Brent McCrae-Jack McNamee-Don Jones- Tom Depuyt- the Deboos -the Voss's or whoever-- I just like dealing with folks that know their cattle- even tho I don't always totally agree with their cattle breeding program or direction-- they are the folks I still will support....

Steer calves and commercial heifers sold thru the ring the other day- heifers sold for $25 higher than the tops in Billings the day before Very Happy Very Happy just because someone knew where they came from-- and while sitting at the ring selling the steer calves I probably sold 2 or 3 bull calves for the son... Very Happy Very Happy (Only wish we had a dozen "fool proof" heifer bulls)-- hottest item going now- with all the old cow sellout with the high cull cow prices (which is going to mean a replacement chase)..


Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:59 am

Just spent a couple of days touring KY cattle backroads with Hilly; he`s probably dizzy from the curves in the road we encountered yesterday...but he sure knows his directions breeding cattle. We were in a nice herd of Polled Herefords yesterday; just one "close the herd and tight breed" step away from having Tru-line potential in my assessment...and just a 50 mile step away for me to create a lot of BWF cows if I ever get in the notion.
www.jmsvictordomino.com
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:53 pm

As the year starts drawing to a close; the travels done with no money spent yet for cattle;
I find myself feeling rather fortunate that my cattle are Unwanted Smile The wait for these
heifers to develop was a bit trying at times; it was one thing to buy back the best
Felix son I`ve seen for $1500 to use; but it is more difficult to use a bull that no
one would give $1500 for
...RobertMac should be proud; I finally let nature select
me a bull...human nature, that is Smile



Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   

Back to top Go down
 
Backroad Breeders
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 3Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Backroad Breeders
» Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there
» Registered Breeder Birman Kittens
» RABBIT'S, just how deep the hole?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: farm and ranch life-
Jump to: