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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Backroad Breeders   Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:03 pm

The internet gives everyone a presence and opportunity to display their product on a more even footing with the outfits bankrolled with ready cash from outside the cattle business. While some cherish the rich and famous breeders, I`ve always been for the little guy, the underdog, who with his own money {or lack thereof} stays the course, and improves his cattle. He is the lifeblood of the breed, while the rich is the lifeblood of the registered associations and societies.
With all the searching for great cattle, the hottest semen, or the oldest and rarest, this is a story about, by his own admission, a herd built from culls.
Tom Gay {Will G} and his family have bought a few cattle and bulls from us for at least 20 years now; and a couple of weeks ago, I finally got my act together and paid Tom a visit.
I was half way there when I dropped off a couple of bulls in this Eastern Ky area; typical of the small farms of the area.

These hills had not been strip mined, just cleared of trees and sown in grass, and because of the soil and terrain...the grass is always thirsty. Harold has bought three bulls from me now; I`m pretty sure farming isn`t his sole income. But in typical EKY fashion, he keeps things to himself; probably a distrust of outsiders from prohibition days Smile
Arriving at Tom`s near Oneida, KY, and home of the Oneida Baptist Institute{a place/school for troubled kids; many DC foreign diplomats kids Tom tells me}, I looked up to see how much Blue Sky there was in store for us...clear as a crystal Smile

Joe Dunkum, long time friend , and cattle breeding ally, made the trip as well.

through the creekside pastures, the cattle go up to the strip mine grass in the hills. We didn`t drive up; afraid we would meet a coal truck on the way down...coal is King. The bottom creek has been flooded with strip waste several times, yet the fish and minnows persist.

the 12 year old double bred Encore cow that has given rise to Tom`s linebreeding program..

Tom has the courage to use the inbred`s though they be less phenotypically pleasing than some of his other calves...

same lineage; less inbreeding

the Bonsma type cow was never taught to me in Livestock Judging; instead, a steer conformation with a cow head was the ideal,,,,I think Professor Bonsma would be pleased with this cow...

another shot

sometimes it takes the neighbors Gelbvieh bull jumping the fence to insure everything is working like a Tru-Line masterpiece Smile

the kind that most everyone wants in Ky; the kind very few need...

because Tom`s cows run maybe 10 to 20 per group on various little farms he rents in the creek bottoms; he needs 5 or 6 bulls...saves money by using his own. This one had already looked at him kinda cross-eyed or something, so he was likely breeding his last cows..

this fall calved linebred two year old tells me things are progressing on schedule ...no glamour, no advertising, respect in the community because he makes a living the old fashioned way...he earns it...and do his cattle...the old fashioned way...commercially

A good trip, and a good education for me...time still the most expensive requirement to breed good cattle...

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:13 pm

just read SS new post etc; pat`s dna etc stuff...
Question...will, or how long, will the Tom Gay`s, Mike Keeney`s, even Larry Leonhardt`s survive the oncoming technological revolution? if so, how?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:53 pm

mike

someone will need to supply females to produce the end market cattle? Who will produce the maternal lines needed for locally adapted cattle that can be AI'ed to produce the ideal feedlot cattle with exceptional carcass quality? I would not be supprised to find that cows like those pictured bred to select bulls that are of similiar type with certian traits that will enhance the the final product without ruining the cow? The bulls may be selected out of the same herds or families but with the DNA confirmed traits.
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:43 pm

Thanks for the kind words mike...Glad you and Joe came by. I can take no credit for the angus cattle here they all trace back to you and Joe.. And thanks for 20 years of no nonsense cattle breeding advice....The bonsma type cow pictured is out of an encore grandson and frazier daughter . Her bull calf is sired by a linebreed encore bull.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:56 pm

shilow angus wrote:
Thanks for the kind words mike...Glad you and Joe came by. I can take no credit for the angus cattle here they all trace back to you and Joe.. And thanks for 20 years of no nonsense cattle breeding advice....The bonsma type cow pictured is out of an encore grandson and frazier daughter . Her bull calf is sired by a linebreed encore bull.

This is a humbleness which must end among the likes of you and some other folks I respect greatly using Shoshone genetics etc...Once you own the cattle; what you accomplish with the cattle is your work and to your credit...It is very important to me that everyone accepts this attitude of "once you own them; they are yours", and you deserve ALL the credit for any accomplishment...very important to me, because in like fashion, neither am I going to accept blame for what happens past my gate anymore as well Smile
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:59 pm

I helped gather , wean and weigh today at Keith Medalen's. As I drove home I thought about how my cattle and my advice had contributed to Keith's good cattle. We always compare our own cattle to those we see and Keith's surely compare very favorably to mine, heck they are probably better. There is no greater satisfaction than the success of our customers. Keith is a sort of Backroad Breeder- maybe even backwards by AA standards but his disciplined pursuit of real world qualities has paid off .


Last edited by OAK LANE FARM on Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:07 pm

OAK LANE FARM wrote:
I helped gather , wean and weigh today at Keith Medalen's. As I drove home I thought about how my cattle and my advice had contributed to Keith's good cattle. We always compare our own cattle to those we see and Keith's surely compare very favorably to mine, heck they are probably better. There is no greater satisfaction than the success of our customers. Keith is a sort of Backroad Breeder- maybe even backwards by AA standards but his disciplined pursuit of real world qualities has paid off .
in money or satisfaction from cattle improvement?
I don`t know any registered breeders that have made any noteworthy money buying my stock; my recommendation for a registered breeder would be buy poorer quality stock where the reputation is bigger
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:06 am

Interesting pictures, interesting country Mike - can't believe how green things still are though given the time of year. Long time since we were that green and it was -14C here yesterday am Shocked
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:15 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Interesting pictures, interesting country Mike - can't believe how green things still are though given the time of year. Long time since we were that green and it was -14C here yesterday am Shocked
we have 4 seasons here Iain; where you just have one Smile It is actually extremely dry this fall; grass would be growing right now if we had some water...
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:47 am

The pay off Mike, is in breeding cattle that serve commercial beef production and that have allowed Keith to stay in business. I have a picture of Keith's heifer calves that I will post tonight if you don't mind sharing your Back Roads thread some more.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:03 am

OAK LANE FARM wrote:
The pay off Mike, is in breeding cattle that serve commercial beef production and that have allowed Keith to stay in business. I have a picture of Keith's heifer calves that I will post tonight if you don't mind sharing your Back Roads thread some more.
oh absolutely; share this thread, or do a specific one...the genetic, and more importantly, financial management ideas of successful, long term operations should be shared by everyone; who knows when we might glean something applicable to our own operations...
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:36 am

Good cattle, good management, good folks, but I saw one major flaw......not a picture one of a good dog. pale Crying or Very sad
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:57 pm


These heifers are the Medalen heifers sired by several Cole Creek bulls , Oak Lane Prince Encore, Oak Lane Monarch, and several other bulls
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:12 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Good cattle, good management, good folks, but I saw one major flaw......not a picture one of a good dog. pale Crying or Very sad


It gets worse.....Not only no cow dogs I sold my horse last year Shocked
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:15 pm

shilow angus wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
Good cattle, good management, good folks, but I saw one major flaw......not a picture one of a good dog. pale Crying or Very sad


It gets worse.....Not only no cow dogs I sold my horse last year Shocked
a four wheeler is the Eastern horse replacement..nice thing, dogs can ride them... Smile
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:38 pm

MKeeney wrote:
shilow angus wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
Good cattle, good management, good folks, but I saw one major flaw......not a picture one of a good dog. pale Crying or Very sad


It gets worse.....Not only no cow dogs I sold my horse last year Shocked
a four wheeler is the Eastern horse replacement..nice thing, dogs can ride them... Smile


Sure the truth Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:03 pm

shilow angus wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
shilow angus wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
Good cattle, good management, good folks, but I saw one major flaw......not a picture one of a good dog. pale Crying or Very sad


It gets worse.....Not only no cow dogs I sold my horse last year Shocked
a four wheeler is the Eastern horse replacement..nice thing, dogs can ride them... Smile


Sure the truth Very Happy

For shame, might as well just move to town and get a cat geek
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:17 pm

OAK LANE FARM wrote:

These heifers are the Medalen heifers sired by several Cole Creek bulls , Oak Lane Prince Encore, Oak Lane Monarch, and several other bulls
question...since the heifers as a group appear to be similiar in type and size, is it really of any value to know the sires involved, or is this just the traditional we promote and sell registered stock? Which name has the most significance to the buyer, Cole Creek bulls , Oak Lane Prince Encore, Oak Lane Monarch, Keith Medalen?
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:22 pm

MKeeney wrote:
OAK LANE FARM wrote:

These heifers are the Medalen heifers sired by several Cole Creek bulls , Oak Lane Prince Encore, Oak Lane Monarch, and several other bulls
question...since the heifers as a group appear to be similiar in type and size, is it really of any value to know the sires involved, or is this just the traditional we promote and sell registered stock? Which name has the most significance to the buyer, Cole Creek bulls , Oak Lane Prince Encore, Oak Lane Monarch, Keith Medalen?


If the names do not mean anything, why have we been cussing the effects of inbreeding, outcrossing, crossbreeding and such, for eternity it would seem?

Without the names, are they still inbred? outcrossed?
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:54 pm

wonder how many look at a pedigree to see if it`s inbred/linebred etc...or to see if they can spot some bulls they have heard or read of sometime before? a great selling point in these state supported commercial heifer sales is the % bred to AI bulls; they don`t name the bulls, just say AI bred...great assumption eh?
which had the greatest influence on making these calves uniform...the dams or the sires? I vote for the dams...half the genetics, and 100% of the raising...
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:39 am

Joe, kinda a sleepless night in KY...too many dogs barking Smile ...gee, that could be the name of a Sniff the Wind son someday Smile
OK, when we buy seed corn, what are we told about it?
suggested population, emergence, drought resistance, height, days to maturity, standability, etc...a list of expected results, but NO PEDIGREES...
I just read another stupid slur of epd`s at Advantage...EPD``s, NOT PEDIGREE, are the closest thing we beef producers have to compare to seed corn in the way of information...it is the producer who ultimately must buy and plant at a rate that best matches his environment and the cost of the nutrition to make that crop weighed against the selling price...
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:09 am

MKeeney wrote:
Joe, kinda a sleepless night in KY...too many dogs barking Smile ...gee, that could be the name of a Sniff the Wind son someday Smile
OK, when we buy seed corn, what are we told about it?
suggested population, emergence, drought resistance, height, days to maturity, standability, etc...a list of expected results, but NO PEDIGREES...
I just read another stupid slur of epd`s at Advantage...EPD``s, NOT PEDIGREE, are the closest thing we beef producers have to compare to seed corn in the way of information...it is the producer who ultimately must buy and plant at a rate that best matches his environment and the cost of the nutrition to make that crop weighed against the selling price...

Outside of cloning, the greatest genetic scenerio to provide the greatest predictibility of a future calf crop is to use closebred parentstock.
All other genetic parallels to breeding corn are irrelevant.
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:22 am

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Joe, kinda a sleepless night in KY...too many dogs barking Smile ...gee, that could be the name of a Sniff the Wind son someday Smile
OK, when we buy seed corn, what are we told about it?
suggested population, emergence, drought resistance, height, days to maturity, standability, etc...a list of expected results, but NO PEDIGREES...
I just read another stupid slur of epd`s at Advantage...EPD``s, NOT PEDIGREE, are the closest thing we beef producers have to compare to seed corn in the way of information...it is the producer who ultimately must buy and plant at a rate that best matches his environment and the cost of the nutrition to make that crop weighed against the selling price...

Outside of cloning, the greatest genetic scenerio to provide the greatest predictibility of a future calf crop is to use closebred parentstock.
All other genetic parallels to breeding corn are irrelevant.
predictability of what? they aren`t genetic parallels; my parallels above are decision making pararells
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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:29 am

MKeeney wrote:
dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Joe, kinda a sleepless night in KY...too many dogs barking Smile ...gee, that could be the name of a Sniff the Wind son someday Smile
OK, when we buy seed corn, what are we told about it?
suggested population, emergence, drought resistance, height, days to maturity, standability, etc...a list of expected results, but NO PEDIGREES...
I just read another stupid slur of epd`s at Advantage...EPD``s, NOT PEDIGREE, are the closest thing we beef producers have to compare to seed corn in the way of information...it is the producer who ultimately must buy and plant at a rate that best matches his environment and the cost of the nutrition to make that crop weighed against the selling price...

Outside of cloning, the greatest genetic scenerio to provide the greatest predictibility of a future calf crop is to use closebred parentstock.
All other genetic parallels to breeding corn are irrelevant.
predictability of what? they aren`t genetic parallels; my parallels above are decision making pararells

I did not correctly read you post, Mike. Embarassed
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Backroad Breeders   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:14 pm

MKeeney wrote:
OAK LANE FARM wrote:

These heifers are the Medalen heifers sired by several Cole Creek bulls , Oak Lane Prince Encore, Oak Lane Monarch, and several other bulls
question...since the heifers as a group appear to be similiar in type and size, is it really of any value to know the sires involved, or is this just the traditional we promote and sell registered stock? Which name has the most significance to the buyer, Cole Creek bulls , Oak Lane Prince Encore, Oak Lane Monarch, Keith Medalen?
The heifers were for the most part extremely uniform. The most important information is Medalen which represents 30 years of thoughtful disciplined breeding. Some might consider Keith to be a bit of a radical but I know he prefers to think of himself as a stubborn Norweigen. Keith's cattle do real world extremely well.
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