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 COOL OUT ???

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:51 pm

I really doubt you can blame R-CALF for creating that monoploy[i][quote]

no, no...not meaning to imply that at all Jack; just created by creed; the strongest instinct of the seven deadlies...and just pointing out that one man`s monoploy is another man`s asset Smile
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:30 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:


Unfortunately they seemed to throw all that out the window after BSE in Canada in 2003 when they were only too happy to assist the packers assume complete control over the Canadian industry

How so???
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:55 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:


Unfortunately they seemed to throw all that out the window after BSE in Canada in 2003 when they were only too happy to assist the packers assume complete control over the Canadian industry

How so???

By lobbying and going to court to extend the closure of the border thereby ensuring the captive supply situation in Canada was made worse. By spreading lies about how many more cases of BSE Canada had than they were reporting (which they were never able to substantiate) as a means to keep the border closed.

What I don't understand is the dumping accusation. After the US border was reopened to imports of Canadian boxed beef, but still closed to live cattle exports the CDN based packers benefitted by being able to buy fed Canadian cattle way, way below the cost of production and ship the resulting beef into the hottest market the US had ever seen. Yet at that point R-CALF wasn't complaining about dumping because it obviously wasn't affecting their prices.

GF suspecting R-CALF was not a reflective and futuristic organisation - more a self centred, protectionist one.

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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:38 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:


Unfortunately they seemed to throw all that out the window after BSE in Canada in 2003 when they were only too happy to assist the packers assume complete control over the Canadian industry

How so???

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1470/is_200406/ai_n6434887/

U.S. packers get $41 million from Canadian BSE bailout
by Ian Elliott
More Articles of Interest

In the past year, the Canadian subsidiaries of two American agribusinesses received more than $41 million (Canadian) from the governments of Alberta and Canada to help them cope with the fallout from a case of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) first found in May 2003.

According to information released June 14 by the Alberta government, Lakeside Farm Industries Ltd., owned by Tyson, and Cargill Foods Ltd., owned by Minnesota-based Cargill, received $41.9 million in payouts from BSE compensation programs offered by the two senior levels of government. Lakeside was paid $32.9 million, and Cargill almost $9 million.

The subsidies were paid as part of six BSE compensation programs offered to Alberta industry over the past year. The programs paid out more...

The theory was the funding dollars would trickled down to the primary producers, the trickle evaporated before it made it, talk about US interets working both sides of the street.

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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:01 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
What I really have a problem with was R-CALF members (and specifically OT) spending much of 2003-2004 spreading lies about how many addition cases of BSE Canada had in addition to the ones reported. Pure and utter lies but OK as long as you were lining your pockets at other (Canadian) ranchers expense - eh OT?

If you have a bitch-- the ones you should be going after is your CFIA - because all I did was post the numbers and articles released by them which showed that BSE was still showing up- like this one:

Quote :
Additional Case of BSE Detected in Canada

On February 18, 2011, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) confirmed a BSE case in a dairy cow born in Alberta in 2004. It reported that no part of the affected animal carcass entered the human food or animal feed systems. CFIA identified the animal’s birth farm and initiated an investigation. The age and location of the infected animal are consistent with previous cases detected in Canada. The case was detected through the national BSE surveillance program, which continues to play an important role in Canada’s strategy to manage BSE. This case underscores the importance of maintaining the multiple "firewalls" in Canada and the United States designed to prevent animal and human exposures to the BSE agent, including particularly slaughter house and rendering plant controls that reduce the risk of specified risk materials (tissues of infected cattle most likely to transmit BSE) from entering into animal feed or human food.


And the estimated numbers that still existed came from your same CFIA and the WTO and OIE estimates of how many still exist in Canada and how many more years they will keep appearing...
I did see where the CFIA now does not report the number of total cases found when a new one shows up anymore ... I stopped keeping track when the number of cases was well into the 20's-- this # must be in the 30's now ...

Of maybe of more importance- I just read an article where Japan has found another case of BSE- which appears to be a different strain than ever before- and in the youngest animal it has ever been detected in - 23 months.....
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:18 pm

No - the lies I am referring to OT are the ones spread by you on the Agriville site in Canada under the name "willowcreek" . Time after time you were spreading lies that Canada was experiencing many times the instance of BSE that was being reported by CFIA and the OIE. These insinuations were also contained in some of the R-CALF press releases at the time. Nothing to do with truth, the facts, the science just dishonest bullshit so that you could continue to line your pockets at the expense of Canadian cattle producers. R-CALFs antics will not quickly be forgotton in Canada.
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:47 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:


Fill in the blips. I'll do the rest.

DV in the vicinity of the Border Cafe

Hope that pipline goes under the table eh.


The one for your oil or your water?



Or

I think I am goig to have a steak sandwich eh


Don't be dumping your scraps on my side, we're goin broke as it is.















































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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:55 pm

Where or what is the proven link between BSE and human illness?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:03 pm

Mike, good luck finding an answer to that one. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:11 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Where or what is the proven link between BSE and human illness?

It is deemed to be the most probable cause of vCJD in humans (a specific varient type of CJD that has been identified in Europe and elsewhere)

Here is what the World Health Organisation has to say about it;

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs180/en/

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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:11 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:
Mike, good luck finding an answer to that one. Smile

I think that is a reality search we all should be going after; instead of fortifying the perception...if it is a perception...but I`ll readily admit, I ain`t anxious to be the human experimental proof Smile
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:20 pm

I think you Canadians would do well to form your own R-CALF and fix your own problems instead of sittin on your nuts blaming the US producers. In 98 when our packer concentration was at close to 80% yours was even higher. Your problem. We tried to stop the flow of meat into the US after the 03 cow and even succeeded for a few months but that ruling was over turned. The packers were not dumping your meat into the US after 03 because they were selling it at our prices and those were above the costs of production. They were raping you, to be sure, but quit throwing rocks at the US and fix your own problems. Your dumbass government paid off the packers, not us. Your dumbass government stood by while the BSE cow from 1993 was rendered and put into animal feed and that is the root of all your BSE problems, not us. If your dumbass government would have had trade barriers against England for BSE in the 90's you would've never had a BSE problem to begin with. Again your problem.

Your BSE cow caused us to lose all of our export markets in the 2000s. Some markets we still have not been able to get back into but a funny thing happened. We lost all of our exports but we stopped all of our live cattle imports and once that happened our markets flourished. It was pretty easy to put a cost on the dumping you were doing into this country then.

Your government set up barriers to make it all but impossible for us to feed cattle in Canada with the bullshit excuse of Blue Tongue and Anaplas but then you bitch because we dare to trade in the same manner. Thats how your government trades and you say the antics of R-CALF will not soon be forgotten. Good.

I never wished this on you all. All we asked was that the rules of NAFTA, that were signed by Canada, be adhered to but I'm shit full of hearing about how we did all of this to you and you are still not trying to fix your own problems from within as far as I can see. Thats your choice but don't cuss us for trying to do that very thing and yes we were and still are protectionist. I want to protect my industry, my way of life, my family, and my country and I'll wear that badge proudly.

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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:24 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:
Mike, good luck finding an answer to that one. Smile

I think that is a reality search we all should be going after; instead of fortifying the perception...if it is a perception...but I`ll readily admit, I ain`t anxious to be the human experimental proof Smile

So what are you saying Mike, That you would like to eat beef from a country that doesn't have BSE? Wouldn't a country of orgin lable allow you to make that decision easier?
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:47 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:
Mike, good luck finding an answer to that one. Smile

I think that is a reality search we all should be going after; instead of fortifying the perception...if it is a perception...but I`ll readily admit, I ain`t anxious to be the human experimental proof Smile

Just like many down here don't still believe that a country with multiples of BSE cases- and scientific (OIE) estimates of many more cases to show up over many years don't think that beef/cattle from that country should be allowed exported into the US- at least without COOL labeling so the consumer can make an informed decision on whether they want to consume it or not...
No different than with some of the imported beef/cattle thru Mexico that have been shown to contain high levels of antibiotics/pesticides/chemical pollutants/diseases that have been long banned in the US...

The passing off of this imported beef/meat as a US product by the packers is nothing but fraud-- and in most states would be illegal except for the fact that the packer lobbyiest bought out USDA Federal interstate/intercountry rules trump State law.....

Its too bad the Packer lobbyiests $ have bought out the truth in labeling laws that most all the other products sold in the country already have.... Especially when its the food we feed our country with....

I can go to the store- and they have to identify the country where the shorts I buy comes from- but they don't have to identify the country the steak I buy comes from--- And can legally pass off product of another country as a US product ...... Sad
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:05 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:

The packers were not dumping your meat into the US after 03 because they were selling it at our prices and those were above the costs of production.

I'm still confused on what you define as dumping - does this indicate that boxed beef can never be dumped in a country because the importer will sell it at the prevailing price in the destination country? Can dumping only occur of live cattle and if so why as these cattle too will become beef that will be sold at the prevailing boxed beef price in the destination country? Further what is defined as the cost of production - the total cost of boxed beef by the time it leaves the packer, the price received by the seller of fed cattle or the price received by the rancher selling calves? How can you determine the cost of production in another country when most people don't know the cost of production on their own units?


Jack McNamee wrote:
So what are you saying Mike, That you would like to eat beef from a country that doesn't have BSE? Wouldn't a country of orgin lable allow you to make that decision easier?

Yep, but then Mike couldn't eat American beef - you do have BSE afterall, in fact your OIE BSE risk status is exactly the same as Canada's ie "controlled"
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:09 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
and scientific (OIE) estimates of many more cases to show up over many years

OK OT, I'd like to read the proof of how many more cases OIE are predicting for Canada and why then is the US lumped in with Canada in the "controlled" category if Canada is still facing such an epidemic? Could it be that the OIE aren't fooled by the lax surveillence standards in the US?
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:15 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:
Mike, good luck finding an answer to that one. Smile

I think that is a reality search we all should be going after; instead of fortifying the perception...if it is a perception...but I`ll readily admit, I ain`t anxious to be the human experimental proof Smile

So what are you saying Mike, That you would like to eat beef from a country that doesn't have BSE? Wouldn't a country of orgin lable allow you to make that decision easier?
Jack,
I think doesn`t have versus hasn`t been reported are two different things...I like my odds eating beef as well or better than any other product in regard to food safety...I wouldn`t trust a country of orgin label to change those odds any significant amount...but then again, maybe we take too much for granted...a look around at the people in a restaurant or a shopping mall and it`s obvious that too much food/calorie consumption is a far greater danger than food borne illness...been there, done that, which disallows me from critisizing LL for smoking Smile
I can`t make any sense the last few years out of the stance of R-Calf or NCBA ...I think it was a serious mistake by R-Calf to turn BSE into a health issue for use as a trade barrier, when it was inevitable that the USA would turn up BSE cows...and here NCBA is against COOL, but is always pushing national ID...which would be a greater burden than COOL in my unenlightened mind...
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:25 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:


Fill in the blips. I'll do the rest.

DV in the vicinity of the Border Cafe

Dennis, now I`m thinking the border line should not have been straight; instead a lot of zigs and zags to show that nothing is ever too "straight-forward" ...or maybe I should be glad the line is so narrow...so I can straddle it without splitting Smile
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:40 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I can`t make any sense the last few years out of the stance of R-Calf or NCBA ...I think it was a serious mistake by R-Calf to turn BSE into a health issue for use as a trade barrier, when it was inevitable that the USA would turn up BSE cows...and here NCBA is against COOL, but is always pushing national ID...which would be a greater burden than COOL in my unenlightened mind...


I agree 100% of what Jack said and while I can't say the border closure was in retaliation- because I think the difference between the countries on amounts of BSE was/is a true issue mainly because of the high incidence found in one area of Canada/Alberta--- but I can tell you the history with NAFTA and all the folks up here...

Back in the 90's after passage of NAFTA I was a Sheriff getting Court Order after Court Order to foreclose on ranchers (some during the age of the Freemen)- that couldn't make it with the cattle/farm prices-- while they watched semi after semi full of cattle burning up the highways coming south across the border .... And none were allowed north... This is about when NCBA originally came out with the COOL idea (which they later flipflopped on)...

Canadian cattle (which at most that time were much cheaper because of monetary valuation differences) were allowed almost free access to the US supposedly thru NAFTA-- but the Canadians and Canadian Stockgrowers declared that "All US Cattle are Diseased" - and even US cattle running side by side along the border with Canadian cattle were deemed "diseased" (Bluetongue and Anaplasmosis--and had to go thru testing and quarantine to be shipped north -even tho all scientific data said opposite and they were eventually proven wrong in years of testing from the northern states) ...

Many in our area that were barely hanging on by their knuckles saw that as an out and out "trade barrier" -and saw the dumping of cheap Canadian cattle as putting them out of business...Like Jack said- WTO agreed with the dumping challenge - and the closed border (which produced record high cattle prices in the US) showed the damage the Canadian imports created....
But the sad thing is that it was too late for those that had already been foreclosed on- or too far in debt to come back out...And a sad thing our government chose world trade on some highly lobbyied products at the sacrifice of many ranchers...
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:00 am

Dennis Voss wrote:



Maybe we could put Larry's grey elephant on the table and you guys could debate whether it's black or white.

TD, feeding peanuts to the elephant in the room.
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:02 am

Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I can`t make any sense the last few years out of the stance of R-Calf or NCBA ...I think it was a serious mistake by R-Calf to turn BSE into a health issue for use as a trade barrier, when it was inevitable that the USA would turn up BSE cows...and here NCBA is against COOL, but is always pushing national ID...which would be a greater burden than COOL in my unenlightened mind...


I agree 100% of what Jack said and while I can't say the border closure was in retaliation- because I think the difference between the countries on amounts of BSE was/is a true issue mainly because of the high incidence found in one area of Canada/Alberta--- but I can tell you the history with NAFTA and all the folks up here...

Back in the 90's after passage of NAFTA I was a Sheriff getting Court Order after Court Order to foreclose on ranchers (some during the age of the Freemen)- that couldn't make it with the cattle/farm prices-- while they watched semi after semi full of cattle burning up the highways coming south across the border .... And none were allowed north... This is about when NCBA originally came out with the COOL idea (which they later flipflopped on)...

Canadian cattle (which at most that time were much cheaper because of monetary valuation differences) were allowed almost free access to the US supposedly thru NAFTA-- but the Canadians and Canadian Stockgrowers declared that "All US Cattle are Diseased" - and even US cattle running side by side along the border with Canadian cattle were deemed "diseased" (Bluetongue and Anaplasmosis--and had to go thru testing and quarantine to be shipped north -even tho all scientific data said opposite and they were eventually proven wrong in years of testing from the northern states) ...

Many in our area that were barely hanging on by their knuckles saw that as an out and out "trade barrier" -and saw the dumping of cheap Canadian cattle as putting them out of business...Like Jack said- WTO agreed with the dumping challenge - and the closed border (which produced record high cattle prices in the US) showed the damage the Canadian imports created....
But the sad thing is that it was too late for those that had already been foreclosed on- or too far in debt to come back out...And a sad thing our government chose world trade on some highly lobbyied products at the sacrifice of many ranchers...

I think I hear a R Calf bawling, must be over spilled milk. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:04 am

Dylan Biggs wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:


Fill in the blips. I'll do the rest.

DV in the vicinity of the Border Cafe




OT, I hear a calf bawling.

Must be one of R calf's















































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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:07 am

OT, Its funny how you always conveniently leave out the fact that it was not only Canada requiring bluetongue and anaplasmosis testing at that time it was also some American states - why didn't you declare war on them?
Funny too how the current record high cattle prices in the US are happening at a time when the border is open to Canadian cattle heading south - how come it's not wrecking your prices now?

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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:25 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
OT, Its funny how you always conveniently leave out the fact that it was not only Canada requiring bluetongue and anaplasmosis testing at that time it was also some American states - why didn't you declare war on them?
Funny too how the current record high cattle prices in the US are happening at a time when the border is open to Canadian cattle heading south - how come it's not wrecking your prices now?

Could it be that with the Packers running the show for so many years- both in Canada and the US that the profit wasn't there- and the cattle population is the lowest its been since the 1970's... That and a very depressed US dollar that isn't buying as much as it did....
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PostSubject: Re: COOL OUT ???   Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:36 am

Dylan Biggs wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:


Fill in the blips. I'll do the rest.

DV in the vicinity of the Border Cafe




OT, I hear a calf bawling.

Must be one of R calf's



Dennis's picture reminds me of what Randy Kaiser and I agreed on- that if the two of us were allowed to be the International trade reps- and could sit down at a table with a bottle of good Canadian Rye- we could have solved the border issue/cattle trade issue in one good long session.... Wink

But there was a whole lot more politics involved- with the multinational meatpackers and import/export lobbyiests wanting to keep the water muddied and not wanting any type agreement- so they could leave it where they profiteered any which way..... Which over the years was at the expense of ranchers on both sides the border....
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