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 Shoshone Encore semen for sale

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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:32 am

Oldtimer wrote:
R V wrote:
IMHO contrarians are necessary for the registered business to continue. If everybody did it the same way, marketed the same, used the same goals, used similar genetics with similar performance, etc., why would you need or want any registered associations or multiple breeds? Human nature is to want to do something better (different) and we repeat most of the activities/mistakes of our predecessors. As experienced breeders leave the business for whatever reason, they open market space for new breeders that have to establish themselves to survive in the registered business. Much like the bull elk, some obtain dominance for whatever trait is advantagious at the time (For the elk it is usually bigger and stronger, but could be tolerates a certain parasite, got lucky or whatever.) and some have little or no "dominance," but are still successful and some never make it. Some are successful, but aren't satisfied... Contentment with your successes (despite the "failures" along the way) is "the gift from God" mentioned above. Some call this the circle of life, but I think there is more to it than that.

Back to the point, contrarians do things different for their individual reasons and usually attract others with similar thought processes or the outliers looking for change, a beginning or dissatisfied with the status quo. Count me in this latter group. Oddly, without LL being in the registered business, I don't think this forum would have existed. Here is my simple take on this, but I don't know all the details/specifics and am not trying to make anything up and Mike please correct any mistakes that are worth correcting. I feel it is a common story repeated over and over in the cattle business and other businesses as well.

Mike goes to LL's sale to purchase a bull to improve his stock. He likes some of the results, but not all. Was it because he didn't get the best (more expensive) bull or not. He also tried "better" (one or more of the current dominant breeders at the time) genetics and liked them a lot less. He decided to try a better (more expensive) bull from LL. In this process of trial and error, he got to know LL and compared what he knew (life experience related to cattle and to people) to what he was learning and .... (Now you are taking time to read my ramblings. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Very Happy)


Without the AAA, the first connection would not have been made and this story of Mike and LL would have never begun. I don't think Mike would have driven that far and spent that money at that time in his career without his want/need of a registered bull "to move his program forward." Without LL's cattle/gene pool, I would have not gone to visit Mike... and the cyle continues. Was it an illusion that started this process? It is only an illusion if the cattle don't make the purchaser's cattle "better." We can debate the details, but these are my thought tonight.

Contrary thoughts and the discussions that causes me to think, keep me coming back and to spend my time here in this forum. "Thinking," the excercise of the mind, actually helps men to live longer in my experience, but they also need the "work" for this to be true. I hope to make fewer mistakes by "learning," but I still have to breed the cattle and take care of them to see if it works. Anyway, just trying to voice more reasons why I feel the AAA does serve a useful purpose and why I disagree with them for not registering cattle.

I pretty much agree- and without trying to impose cattle politics into the conversation I will repeat what I stuck on a thread on 5BarX regarding BOD campaigning...

In the last week I've received 6 politicking letters/pamphlets from board candidates that extort their great accomplishments in their having 10-20-30 years of ALL AI and /or top dollar boughten cattle that have performed greatly in the cattle shows around the country- and how well their big dollar cattle or big dollar part interest owned cattle did in Alabama, Missouri, Oklahoma, Ohio or whoever knows cattle shows/sales----ALL REPRODUCERS AND NO BREEDERS- all tied to or supporting the importance of the show world- which makes me wonder if the Board still represents/or wants to represent the hundreds of angus folks out there with herds that have utilized years of their own breeding/bloodlines (many of which were smart enough to miss the current genetic crash) that produce great seedstock for thousands of commercial folks that use Angus genetics......

Please go back and reread Robert Groom's letter as it is different then the others I have received.
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CW



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Join date : 2010-10-06
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:43 am

Do we still live in a time where reputation cattle sell themselves and not on the hype of a "promoted" program? I personally think that there are not near the number of true stockmen in the industry today, compared to say 25 years ago. I realize the industry is in a different state then it was then, but my point being that the true commercial operator then, being cows or stockers, could visually appraise livestock "better" because that was all they had to go by. Today we have a measure for almost everything whether we need it or not, and maybe the art of visual appraisal has declined because seeing is no longer confidently believing unless there's verified info to say we're right. More people today don't make a living fulltime from their livestock and maybe thats why. In my area, feeders base their calf purchases on dollars per head to maintain their spread (and rightly so) and care little about the source of the calves. I work for an order buying outfit and know not to many ask to get so and so's calves again because they did so well the year before. With cows, most farmers here have small herds and invest little in genetics and management. I hope I'm not straying off topic and maybe my ramblings pertain to my geographic area, but I still believe it would be tough today to just start up and make a go of it on developing reputation cattle without somehow causing a little motion and promotion in the industry Rolling Eyes
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:08 am

If I were to show a pedigree of any of my cows younger than 8 years of age few folks would have ever heard of the names and would wonder why my name shows up so much. Then there would be the crowd that would say not enough grow because of the epd's. I was told a month ago that while a cow and calf pair looked damn good how can he make any money off of them with a pedigree that was not full of AI animals. They don't like to hear the word commercially they can make money(if their management practices so allow). I still want to know who made who but not sure I want to keep paying salaries at AAA for that.
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:55 pm

Mark Day wrote:
If I were to show a pedigree of any of my cows younger than 8 years of age few folks would have ever heard of the names and would wonder why my name shows up so much. Then there would be the crowd that would say not enough grow because of the epd's. I was told a month ago that while a cow and calf pair looked damn good how can he make any money off of them with a pedigree that was not full of AI animals. They don't like to hear the word commercially they can make money(if their management practices so allow). I still want to know who made who but not sure I want to keep paying salaries at AAA for that.

I agree...Fees goin from $30 to $80 without the A J was a slap in the face....It's not the $80 it's the principle. If we all abstained for one year......
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Oldtimer

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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:04 pm

patb wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
R V wrote:
IMHO contrarians are necessary for the registered business to continue. If everybody did it the same way, marketed the same, used the same goals, used similar genetics with similar performance, etc., why would you need or want any registered associations or multiple breeds? Human nature is to want to do something better (different) and we repeat most of the activities/mistakes of our predecessors. As experienced breeders leave the business for whatever reason, they open market space for new breeders that have to establish themselves to survive in the registered business. Much like the bull elk, some obtain dominance for whatever trait is advantagious at the time (For the elk it is usually bigger and stronger, but could be tolerates a certain parasite, got lucky or whatever.) and some have little or no "dominance," but are still successful and some never make it. Some are successful, but aren't satisfied... Contentment with your successes (despite the "failures" along the way) is "the gift from God" mentioned above. Some call this the circle of life, but I think there is more to it than that.

Back to the point, contrarians do things different for their individual reasons and usually attract others with similar thought processes or the outliers looking for change, a beginning or dissatisfied with the status quo. Count me in this latter group. Oddly, without LL being in the registered business, I don't think this forum would have existed. Here is my simple take on this, but I don't know all the details/specifics and am not trying to make anything up and Mike please correct any mistakes that are worth correcting. I feel it is a common story repeated over and over in the cattle business and other businesses as well.

Mike goes to LL's sale to purchase a bull to improve his stock. He likes some of the results, but not all. Was it because he didn't get the best (more expensive) bull or not. He also tried "better" (one or more of the current dominant breeders at the time) genetics and liked them a lot less. He decided to try a better (more expensive) bull from LL. In this process of trial and error, he got to know LL and compared what he knew (life experience related to cattle and to people) to what he was learning and .... (Now you are taking time to read my ramblings. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Very Happy)


Without the AAA, the first connection would not have been made and this story of Mike and LL would have never begun. I don't think Mike would have driven that far and spent that money at that time in his career without his want/need of a registered bull "to move his program forward." Without LL's cattle/gene pool, I would have not gone to visit Mike... and the cyle continues. Was it an illusion that started this process? It is only an illusion if the cattle don't make the purchaser's cattle "better." We can debate the details, but these are my thought tonight.

Contrary thoughts and the discussions that causes me to think, keep me coming back and to spend my time here in this forum. "Thinking," the excercise of the mind, actually helps men to live longer in my experience, but they also need the "work" for this to be true. I hope to make fewer mistakes by "learning," but I still have to breed the cattle and take care of them to see if it works. Anyway, just trying to voice more reasons why I feel the AAA does serve a useful purpose and why I disagree with them for not registering cattle.

I pretty much agree- and without trying to impose cattle politics into the conversation I will repeat what I stuck on a thread on 5BarX regarding BOD campaigning...

In the last week I've received 6 politicking letters/pamphlets from board candidates that extort their great accomplishments in their having 10-20-30 years of ALL AI and /or top dollar boughten cattle that have performed greatly in the cattle shows around the country- and how well their big dollar cattle or big dollar part interest owned cattle did in Alabama, Missouri, Oklahoma, Ohio or whoever knows cattle shows/sales----ALL REPRODUCERS AND NO BREEDERS- all tied to or supporting the importance of the show world- which makes me wonder if the Board still represents/or wants to represent the hundreds of angus folks out there with herds that have utilized years of their own breeding/bloodlines (many of which were smart enough to miss the current genetic crash) that produce great seedstock for thousands of commercial folks that use Angus genetics......

Please go back and reread Robert Groom's letter as it is different then the others I have received.

Pat-- I haven't gotten one from Robert-- and while I'm only an alternate, so not voting- and because of it being my busy time of the year with inspecting/shipping will not be at the convention (can't afford to go just party/hobnob)- but from what I've gleaned of Roberts beliefs from this and other boards- he is one I could support...

He at least is not afraid to think outside the box- stand up for what he believes- and seems to somewhat fit the "contrarian" model that may be what is needed... He and Leo could be two I could support....
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:22 pm

good posts Craig and Mark..In today`s BS world of 50 bucks and you are cattle breeder, pedigree and registration papers are about selling cattle, not improving cattle.
Pedigree is ancestry; and ancestry is important and useful to those who had knowledge of the ancestry...the below pedigree on a favorite cow has some value to me because I am remotely familiar with some of the individuals, but very important to Larry because he knew them all.

#787 born 3/27/07 sired by #242 Not Reg yet (#242 sired by Lawrence 840 #14635003 out of cow 766 #14634988). (13th generation in our herd)
736 born 4/23/05 sired by Elmo .
764 born 2/20/03 sired by Ekalak.
718 born 4/20/00 sired by Link ).
752 born 3/8/95 sired by Prince.
723 born 2/27/92 sired by Ben.
714 born 3/20/90 sired by 106 (Laser 2310).
767 born 5/8/85 sired by Quent.
722 born 2/2482 sired by Beauigan
LJB7 born 4/3/80 sired by Leukas of Wye
JB7 born 5/14/78 sired by Titan
B7 born 10/18/70 sired by Beaufort of Wye
#7 the purchased cow born 3/8/64 (4454375)


[/size] I find it kinda odd that it seems some of those most adamant about pedigree, are most adverse to EPDS...when EPDS in most instances tell far more than pedigree about the animal...

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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:25 pm

shilow angus wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
If I were to show a pedigree of any of my cows younger than 8 years of age few folks would have ever heard of the names and would wonder why my name shows up so much. Then there would be the crowd that would say not enough grow because of the epd's. I was told a month ago that while a cow and calf pair looked damn good how can he make any money off of them with a pedigree that was not full of AI animals. They don't like to hear the word commercially they can make money(if their management practices so allow). I still want to know who made who but not sure I want to keep paying salaries at AAA for that.

I agree...Fees goin from $30 to $80 without the A J was a slap in the face....It's not the $80 it's the principle. If we all abstained for one year......
or just decided to first and foremost be cattle breeders
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:50 pm

To add to what Craig said it is interesting to note one local barn won't say,''These calves are sired by Joe Blow's bulls etc.'' I think they got some complaints they were endorsing one breeder over another. Still some reputation cattle sell better then others but as much as anything they tend to come in bigger bunches and tend to have fewer problems. I seriously doubt the genetics play a big role in price [unless they are absolute dogs]. There are a lot of commercial guys wasting money on bulls they could buy down the road for thousands less.
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:01 pm

MKeeney wrote:
shilow angus wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
If I were to show a pedigree of any of my cows younger than 8 years of age few folks would have ever heard of the names and would wonder why my name shows up so much. Then there would be the crowd that would say not enough grow because of the epd's. I was told a month ago that while a cow and calf pair looked damn good how can he make any money off of them with a pedigree that was not full of AI animals. They don't like to hear the word commercially they can make money(if their management practices so allow). I still want to know who made who but not sure I want to keep paying salaries at AAA for that.

I agree...Fees goin from $30 to $80 without the A J was a slap in the face....It's not the $80 it's the principle. If we all abstained for one year......
or just decided to first and foremost be cattle breeders

Sure the truth...
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:19 pm

My understanding of the pro AAA perspective leads me to the conclusion that one needs the AAA to make more money and gain notoriety and perhaps maintain tradition; keeping track of pedigree can be done by individual breeders so I don’t buy that as a reason. There may be other reasons that depend on the AAA that I missed...?

So that leads me to the question of, how will we know we have enough money and notoriety to consider ourselves a success and at who expense? (I have asked myself this same question in my own personal paradigm many times scratch )

And if we reach that successful stage, which I’ll assume is a fair bit better than the average full time registered producer who would run around break even. And say for example we become some of the most recognized names in the industry king and sell bulls for 10’s of thousands and average $3500 or more, how will we justify the bulls values to our customers?

So then at least for me Mike’s repeated question “who are you breeding cattle for?” becomes very relevant to the discussion. How would we market our cattle at those prices to the registered sector and more importantly for me, the commercial guy? After all there just cows.... Smile

Or will we at some point walk away from the money and the fame and start down a less traveled road of things more tangible and be content with enough....?

There are more than enough very credible breeders that have taken cows right out of the middle of the Shoshone and KA herds to make the genes available to the young breeder that wants to keep up the special brand of paper the AAA produces and go on to help change the direction of the AAA problem being IMO it’s a circular motion....

Papers or not to move forward from here would mean breeders stabilizing their own strains to provide more reliable parts “That can REGULARLY produce beef animals, which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labour give the highest possible and longest lasting net returns. Not just for ourselves, but moreso for the commercial producers.”
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:40 pm

Quote :
Pedigree is ancestry; and ancestry is important and useful to those who had knowledge of the ancestry.

How much do you have to know to be useful ... or maybe even be harmful? What data has Larry kept on each individual over the many years that he has found to be most helpful to him?


Last edited by Mark Day on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:48 pm

Quote :
That can REGULARLY produce beef animals, which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labour give the highest possible and longest lasting net returns. Not just for ourselves, but moreso for the commercial producers
.[b]

This only works if they buy your product. Somehow, someway you must get their attention to come look and then to buy.
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CW



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:33 pm

In reguards to Hilly's comment about those that rise to the top, can they walk away and take the road less travelled? My opinion would be not likely as I think most get a taste of the money and try to run the con until they are no longer the flavor of the day. By that point, they've burned to many bridges or their equity trying for that one last great sale. If your truly concerned about breeding cattle that will work for the commercial man than you would have to have a good sense of the economics of that side of the fence and be operating in a manner accomodating to that. Selling to a purebred herd could be lucrative but most of the big shots here all sample the same AI bulls anyways so why bother. It's a race to see who has the first service to or the first daughter of etc etc Rolling Eyes I would guess that unless you play that game your home bred genetics which could be much better at alot of things just won't appeal to many. I've had personal experience there as I'm not a player on the ring circuit and can sell surplus cows and heifers for more dollars through commercial sales- those guys don't care about the names in the pedigree . But one big sale would be nice..... Twisted Evil
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:22 pm

MKeeney wrote:
what was is misunderstood; what is is subject to debate; and what will be because
is pure conjecture on all our parts...but I`ve every reason to believe the move to no registration will be a very positive step to begin a refocus on what is important in cattle breeding...and 20, maybe 30 years from now, we`ll play the same what if game and view this occurence in a very positive light. So far, I feel the argument against has been very short-sighted, somewhat selfish, and causes me to ask everyone who are you breeding cattle for?


I don't doubt that you will be more content breeding nonregistered cattle and I respect your decision. This switch has been fairly common in my part of the world and profitability and contentment are the usually reasons. Most of these breeders were never "successful" in the registered business and I think you were/are. Nonetheless, I still think the new breeders need an association to make connections and to get their start... including you. Where is the contrarian? You usually think and are open-minded and give excellent insight, but on this discussion it appears that you are the one being short-sighted and selfish and have not shared your insight. I think I understand most your reasons, but is there something more than experience and frustration? Is there something else that I am missing? Is it something we should all do?

In regards to the cattle, I am breeding them for me - my own satisfaction and experimentation. If I think they are good enough, some of the bulls should be available. If they are not good enough or if I can't market them, we will both be saling commercial cattle.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:11 am

Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
That can REGULARLY produce beef animals, which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labour give the highest possible and longest lasting net returns. Not just for ourselves, but moreso for the commercial producers
.[b]

This only works if they buy your product. Somehow, someway you must get their attention to come look and then to buy.
Somehow {the truth}, someway {the truth} you must get their attention to come look, and then to buy{the truth}
if the truth doesn`t work, who needs the hassle?
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:39 am

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
what was is misunderstood; what is is subject to debate; and what will be because
is pure conjecture on all our parts...but I`ve every reason to believe the move to no registration will be a very positive step to begin a refocus on what is important in cattle breeding...and 20, maybe 30 years from now, we`ll play the same what if game and view this occurence in a very positive light. So far, I feel the argument against has been very short-sighted, somewhat selfish, and causes me to ask everyone who are you breeding cattle for?


I don't doubt that you will be more content breeding nonregistered cattle and I respect your decision. This switch has been fairly common in my part of the world and profitability and contentment are the usually reasons. Most of these breeders were never "successful" in the registered business and I think you were/are. Nonetheless, I still think the new breeders need an association to make connections and to get their start... including you. Where is the contrarian? You usually think and are open-minded and give excellent insight, but on this discussion it appears that you are the one being short-sighted and selfish and have not shared your insight. I think I understand most your reasons, but is there something more than experience and frustration? Is there something else that I am missing? Is it something we should all do?

In regards to the cattle, I am breeding them for me - my own satisfaction and experimentation. If I think they are good enough, some of the bulls should be available. If they are not good enough or if I can't market them, we will both be saling commercial cattle.
yes, Ron, as much as some of my associates would like to be hermits, they can`t be entirely; total solitude is not really a natural human condition imo...so even I do need an association; but I need an association that has my goals foremost in mind; responds to my needs, that I have a voice in, and that I can learn from other members. I have applied for membership to that association; I hope to be foundation member number 1, simply for the great honor of it after having applied some 27 years ago; a long wait, because you have to be a cattle breeder to join this association; that is a helluva lot more fee than AAA charges. This association will always be small in membership because the membership fee is too costly, and the rewards may only be self-satisfaction of having made your best effort in a noble cause.
I teach every day; but like the tree falling that no one hears; is there noise?...because no one listens, was there any educational benefits? Admantly yes Exclamation I LEARN A LOT.
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:44 pm

MKeeney wrote:
R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
what was is misunderstood; what is is subject to debate; and what will be because
is pure conjecture on all our parts...but I`ve every reason to believe the move to no registration will be a very positive step to begin a refocus on what is important in cattle breeding...and 20, maybe 30 years from now, we`ll play the same what if game and view this occurence in a very positive light. So far, I feel the argument against has been very short-sighted, somewhat selfish, and causes me to ask everyone who are you breeding cattle for?


I don't doubt that you will be more content breeding nonregistered cattle and I respect your decision. This switch has been fairly common in my part of the world and profitability and contentment are the usually reasons. Most of these breeders were never "successful" in the registered business and I think you were/are. Nonetheless, I still think the new breeders need an association to make connections and to get their start... including you. Where is the contrarian? You usually think and are open-minded and give excellent insight, but on this discussion it appears that you are the one being short-sighted and selfish and have not shared your insight. I think I understand most your reasons, but is there something more than experience and frustration? Is there something else that I am missing? Is it something we should all do?

In regards to the cattle, I am breeding them for me - my own satisfaction and experimentation. If I think they are good enough, some of the bulls should be available. If they are not good enough or if I can't market them, we will both be saling commercial cattle.

yes, Ron, as much as some of my associates would like to be hermits, they can`t be entirely; total solitude is not really a natural human condition imo...so even I do need an association; but I need an association that has my goals foremost in mind; responds to my needs, that I have a voice in, and that I can learn from other members. I have applied for membership to that association; I hope to be foundation member number 1, simply for the great honor of it after having applied some 27 years ago; a long wait, because you have to be a cattle breeder to join this association; that is a helluva lot more fee than AAA charges. This association will always be small in membership because the membership fee is too costly, and the rewards may only be self-satisfaction of having made your best effort in a noble cause.
I teach every day; but like the tree falling that no one hears; is there noise?...because no one listens, was there any educational benefits? Admantly yes Exclamation I LEARN A LOT.


You are an excellent teacher and one must be an excellent learner to be an excellent teacher, but I apparently did a poor job wording this question/hypothesis. I was referring to the above hypothesis that a new breeder needs an association at the beginning of their career to provide the appearance of validity and to provide the opportunity of cattle raisers and breeders to begin relationships and that this is one useful purpose/use of AAA/registration papers. (Obviously, the AAA does a lot that I feel is useless and possibly harmful, but those activities may help others, so that is AAA's problem.) I feel this hypothesis is true, but this "need" becomes "an option" later in one's career as the successful breeder has developed all of the associations that they need ---> ie. friends, foes, customers, etc. This hypothesis was also meant to help us think about/delineate why young breeders feel there is a need for registered cattle and why we hate to see "good" cattle that are registerable fall out of this category. With the advent of the internet and forums like this, this "need" for AAA/breed association should become an option earlier in one's career, but only if "good" information is shared. Hopefully, your Association goes well and I may have the qualifications to join in 20 - 30 years, but we won't know until then.

Similes are always intriguing, but I would answer yes to both. The extended answer would require an essay. Sleep
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:24 pm

I`ve kinda always wondered why we encouraged youth to show cattle to get them interested in the cattle business; when to establish a meaningful and profitable career as a cattle producer, they would have to unlearn most everything shows teach them?
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:35 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I`ve kinda always wondered why we encouraged youth to show cattle to get them interested in the cattle business; when to establish a meaningful and profitable career as a cattle producer, they would have to unlearn most everything shows teach them?

Not trying to downgrade the seedstock business, but some of the most profitable cattlemen I've met made most of their money buying mismanaged calves and straightening them out. A positive slide is rather attractive. Why would anyone want to breed cattle? Not everything is about the most financial return.
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:24 pm

MKeeney wrote:
good posts Craig and Mark..In today`s BS world of 50 bucks and you are cattle breeder, pedigree and registration papers are about selling cattle, not improving cattle.
Pedigree is ancestry; and ancestry is important and useful to those who had knowledge of the ancestry...the below pedigree on a favorite cow has some value to me because I am remotely familiar with some of the individuals, but very important to Larry because he knew them all.

#787 born 3/27/07 sired by #242 Not Reg yet (#242 sired by Lawrence 840 #14635003 out of cow 766 #14634988). (13th generation in our herd)
736 born 4/23/05 sired by Elmo .
764 born 2/20/03 sired by Ekalak.
718 born 4/20/00 sired by Link ).
752 born 3/8/95 sired by Prince.
723 born 2/27/92 sired by Ben.
714 born 3/20/90 sired by 106 (Laser 2310).
767 born 5/8/85 sired by Quent.
722 born 2/2482 sired by Beauigan
LJB7 born 4/3/80 sired by Leukas of Wye
JB7 born 5/14/78 sired by Titan
B7 born 10/18/70 sired by Beaufort of Wye
#7 the purchased cow born 3/8/64 (4454375)


[/size] I find it kinda odd that it seems some of those most adamant about pedigree, are most adverse to EPDS...when EPDS in most instances tell far more than pedigree about the animal...



Mike,

I was curious about the pedigree. Do you have 736's registration number so that I could look it up? I also noticed on another thread that another new breeder/"kid" had a great time looking at your cattle and learning from you during the trip. It is good to hear that you are still teaching. Hopefully, I will have time for more questions/thoughts later tonight. If you have the time, I would still like your thoughts on the above hypotheses. I actually feel they are theorums, but would like to hear your objective responses.

Thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:44 pm

I don`t have the registration; but more importantly I have her descendents to learn from..tell me, what would you know more if you had her papers? would it mean more than saying Shoshone? It doesn`t to me; why you?
As to your theorems?, you may well be right...without Shoshone, there`ll still be plenty of registered cattle for whoever for whatever reason they wish to pursue...it`s been covered well why I don`t need or want to be part of the game anymore...
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:23 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I don`t have the registration; but more importantly I have her descendents to learn from..tell me, what would you know more if you had her papers? would it mean more than saying Shoshone? It doesn`t to me; why you?

...the below pedigree on a favorite cow has some value to me because I am remotely familiar with some of the individuals, but very important to Larry because he knew them all.

The fact that she is one of your favorite cows is all I needed to know. I would like to look back and see "the paint and brushes that made this picture" and to see the painter(s). I suspect she is a Picasso.

As to your theorems?, you may well be right...without Shoshone, there`ll still be plenty of registered cattle for whoever for whatever reason they wish to pursue...it`s been covered well why I don`t need or want to be part of the game anymore...


I know that you "don't want to be part of the game anymore," but I am actually trying to delineate some of the differences between inexperienced and experienced breeders and their need or lack of need of a registered association. If we (inexperienced breeders) want to continue to breed and register, what other pearls did you learn over time? A few that have stuck thus far. Management, management, management, raise them like your commercial man, raise an optimum cow in your environment and not an extreme cow, honesty (all have good and bad traits), inbreeding allows more consistency, and...
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:52 pm

I have been out of the loop for the past week, as something or someone ate or lost or stole my wireless device. I am trying to catch up, I humbly beg forgiveness, for skipping class once again.

In the meantime, I have completed reading 3 books that were started, and 3 new ones, now starting "The Time it Never Rained" by Elmer Kelton. A contrarion in his own right, that would be a welcome fit in this discusion forum.

RV, I will get back to you.....not much to see here, just cows eating grass.

Mike K, just got your email.....will be in contact.

Once again, carry on gentlemen
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:40 am

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I don`t have the registration; but more importantly I have her descendents to learn from..tell me, what would you know more if you had her papers? would it mean more than saying Shoshone? It doesn`t to me; why you?

...the below pedigree on a favorite cow has some value to me because I am remotely familiar with some of the individuals, but very important to Larry because he knew them all.

The fact that she is one of your favorite cows is all I needed to know. I would like to look back and see "the paint and brushes that made this picture" and to see the painter(s). I suspect she is a Picasso.

As to your theorems?, you may well be right...without Shoshone, there`ll still be plenty of registered cattle for whoever for whatever reason they wish to pursue...it`s been covered well why I don`t need or want to be part of the game anymore...


I know that you "don't want to be part of the game anymore," but I am actually trying to delineate some of the differences between inexperienced and experienced breeders and their need or lack of need of a registered association. If we (inexperienced breeders) want to continue to breed and register, what other pearls did you learn over time? A few that have stuck thus far. Management, management, management, raise them like your commercial man, raise an optimum cow in your environment and not an extreme cow, honesty (all have good and bad traits), inbreeding allows more consistency, and...
The fact that she is one of your favorite cows is all I needed to know. I would like to look back and see "the paint and brushes that made this picture" and to see the painter(s). I suspect she is a Picasso.
instead of paint and brushes making the picture, flips of the coin of colors made it...therefore, the same paint and brush swipes, can produce an ugly cartoon next time...the only thing that would make the picture more repeatable is a two-headed coin...inbreeding.
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:42 am

Bootheel wrote:
I have been out of the loop for the past week, as something or someone ate or lost or stole my wireless device. I am trying to catch up, I humbly beg forgiveness, for skipping class once again.

In the meantime, I have completed reading 3 books that were started, and 3 new ones, now starting "The Time it Never Rained" by Elmer Kelton. A contrarion in his own right, that would be a welcome fit in this discusion forum.

RV, I will get back to you.....not much to see here, just cows eating grass.

Mike K, just got your email.....will be in contact.

Once again, carry on gentlemen
Joe, I was surely getting concerned; ready to call; afraid the dogs might have conspired against you...good having you back!
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