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 Shoshone Encore semen for sale

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R V



Posts : 74
Join date : 2010-10-04

PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:18 pm

MKeeney wrote:

Sitz? should an image, type, or lineage come to mind? it didn`t for me...Ron, as I continue to hassle you a bit because I know you, let me ask why the 4 ? Are you going to take the best from the 4; the femininity of the Shoshones, the guts of the Falloons, the range adaptation of the "true N-bars", and I guess the crafty-crossing of the Sitz, and outdo them all?


These are the best cows that I have, so that is where I am starting. Hopefully the genes will be synergistic (Gotta dream a little now and then Very Happy ), but there is a lot of diversity, so it is going to take time. I would prefer to have a couple LL cows or Keeney cows with a lot of LL in the breeding, but they have not been available. The linebred nature and the desired type of your or LL cows would be the ones that would speed up the process a lot. I guess I should clarilfy this from the above statement.

In regards to Sitz, some of my better cows are out of Sitz Alliance 6595 and I am planning on using them and there is one other cow that has a different Sitz bull in the pedigree. She is also the dam of my senior herd sire. (He is out of Falloon's 41/97 bull.) Sitz Alliance 6595 isn't perfect, but he has been useful in my environment. His daughters were the only AI calves to make it.

There is also a little NBar thrown in with several of the cows as well. There is also a 5522 daughter that I am planning on flushing to Viking. I really am hoping that this will work. I guess Viking will be the Shoshone bull that I will use since I have a little semen on him and he has several traits that I like. I know there are other Shoshone bulls that you like better, but they are not available to me.

You know that I like more guts than Larry. I think it is an asset for effective grazing in our region. Mr. Falloon has been linebreeding for a long time with a plan and I like the bull that I have currently and may use the 41/97 bull again, but will probably use a son. I don't anticipate that I will outdo anybody, but hopefully I will be able to make some useful cattle. Maybe with a little more luck, at least one of my children will continue with this plan when I am done.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:28 pm

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

Sitz? should an image, type, or lineage come to mind? it didn`t for me...Ron, as I continue to hassle you a bit because I know you, let me ask why the 4 ? Are you going to take the best from the 4; the femininity of the Shoshones, the guts of the Falloons, the range adaptation of the "true N-bars", and I guess the crafty-crossing of the Sitz, and outdo them all?


These are the best cows that I have, so that is where I am starting. Hopefully the genes will be synergistic (Gotta dream a little now and then Very Happy ), but there is a lot of diversity, so it is going to take time. I would prefer to have a couple LL cows or Keeney cows with a lot of LL in the breeding, but they have not been available. The linebred nature and the desired type of your or LL cows would be the ones that would speed up the process a lot. I guess I should clarilfy this from the above statement.

In regards to Sitz, some of my better cows are out of Sitz Alliance 6595 and I am planning on using them and there is one other cow that has a different Sitz bull in the pedigree. She is also the dam of my senior herd sire. (He is out of Falloon's 41/97 bull.) Sitz Alliance 6595 isn't perfect, but he has been useful in my environment. His daughters were the only AI calves to make it.

There is also a little NBar thrown in with several of the cows as well. There is also a 5522 daughter that I am planning on flushing to Viking. I really am hoping that this will work. I guess Viking will be the Shoshone bull that I will use since I have a little semen on him and he has several traits that I like. I know there are other Shoshone bulls that you like better, but they are not available to me.

You know that I like more guts than Larry. I think it is an asset for effective grazing in our region. Mr. Falloon has been linebreeding for a long time with a plan and I like the bull that I have currently and may use the 41/97 bull again, but will probably use a son. I don't anticipate that I will outdo anybody, but hopefully I will be able to make some useful cattle. Maybe with a little more luck, at least one of my children will continue with this plan when I am done.
A good place to start is with what you got on hand; as Mr. Falloon wrote to me, "we don`t need everyone doing the same thing"
I like you explaining your plans; means you have one Smile I have been questioning you not only for my information, but for your justification as well...keeps us thinking Smile
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:15 am

An open question: If N Bar was a linebred herd with strick culling and good selection, why do folks gernerally discuss only 3 or 4 bulls from the orignial program? If Mr. Falloon has been linebreeding and strickly culling for years, why do people speak of the 41/97 bull the most and not use any of the other bulls without the same anticipation?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:29 am

EddieM wrote:
An open question: If N Bar was a linebred herd with strick culling and good selection, why do folks gernerally discuss only 3 or 4 bulls from the orignial program? If Mr. Falloon has been linebreeding and strickly culling for years, why do people speak of the 41/97 bull the most and not use any of the other bulls without the same anticipation?

good questions; would the answer be that everyone is always interested in the rarity of the outlier? I mentioned the same in regard to Cole Creek "Cedar" ; seems we think we can use the outlier, and still capture the traits of the average of the genepool..I`m pretty sure we can`t...
people here may speak of 41/97 the most from the Falloon program; partly because he is one of few availiable...but the Pinebank programme is not to stick to one bull too long...41/97 is about average growth in the breed in NZ Breedplan...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:24 pm

Ron,
Can you sell a linebred bull in MO that doesn`t meet the typical looks and performance that producers are accustomed to? will being registered help?
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:10 pm

Ron,
Can you sell a linebred bull in MO that doesn`t meet the typical looks and performance that producers are accustomed to? will being registered help?


Mike,

With the current cows and the fact that I am just making the foundational crosses, the performance does not appear to be a problem yet, but the sample is small. The bull calf that I am keeping back to use on heifers still shows heterosis and is growing well on grass. In fact, he is performing better thus far than I anticipated (secondary to his light birth weight and genetics and in the long run I don't know if this is good or bad, but currently I am impressed.) and his mother is holding her flesh well. He is out of one of my foundational cows and the bull is a linebred son of one of the other cows (The sire is mostly of NBar breeding and linebreeding more along Lents description and I am sure that inbreeding coefficient would not be that high.) It will be at least 5 years before there will be any meaningful numbers of linebred calves will be born and the numbers will still be small. Most of my foundational calves will be produced by ET and I will start flushing again in ~6 weeks.

The bulls that I have sold thus far and the ones that I am making will sale much better as registered calves and several of them will be saling outside of my region. I hope to realize part of the initial expenses by taking advantage of the "rarity" of the initial crosses. Very Happy I am also establishing cooperation with proven breeders to help sale bull calves for more value. This requires that they be registered. If I average close to you or Larry, I will be successful or very successful in this process. If there are only a few bulls, I will need to keep them for my own use.

Hopefully, I will have time later tonight to revisit one of my other thoughts/questions from above that "got missed." pirat

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:18 pm

please do Ron; I`m enjoying the banter exploring the difference in our thoughts...just don`t get too involved typing, and start typing pedigrees in the ER charts Smile
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:30 am

A different thought, but I think relevant. Neither you nor Larry would have had your current success without the credibility that AAA gave you when you were starting out and through the beginnings of your programs. You both have progressed where you can live with or without AAA, but it was still a necessary ingredient for your success in the beginning as it gave you credibility then. You both have earned the name and the respect that you have, but without a breed association, you wouldn't have gotten out of the gates. We (new breeders) are faced with this same predicament as we get started. We would also like to start with the best genetics that we can afford. You and Larry + our early experiences have convinced several of us "children" that we were looking for/starting with the wrong cattle. What is a kid to do?

As I think about this concept, I believe it is one of the reasons that we disagree about the importance of registrations. Maybe this wasn't worded the best, but I think it is important. Please remember that I am tired and should be in bed, so this probably won't be as well thought out as I would like.

I think that for the new/unproven breeder, being a registered breeder is very important to help "establish the program" and create/begin validity. None of us can create registered stock out of thin air. We have to start with registered cattle that were bred by someone else. Everyone starts with cattle that they did not breed. If nothing else, the papers show that someone cared enough about the cattle to keep track of the cow, sire and birth date of the current animal and that the cow and sire were registered by a cattle association that has someone who keeps track of these records.

A cattle association gives the opportunity for and provides the appearance of a premium product. I believe this was true for LL in the beginning, as well as for you, to sale bulls at any sort of a premium over sale barn prices. Once you have an established commercial market, registration may no longer be needed. Most new breeders don't have an established market and have higher input needs - purchasing initial land, breeding stock, equipment, etc. vs proven breeders who usually have part of these expenses paid for. This makes us "the kids" a little more desperate. New breeders not only depend on previous breeders for the cattle to start their herds, but for advice on how to succeed (Like most things in life, we rarely get good advice the first time or if we do, we think we can do it better.). Most of us, Mike and LL included, have been trapped by "what glitters" (frame, milk, maternal, carcass, efficient...) at some point and usually towards the beginning of the process and think we can do "it" better. To stay in the business everyone has to find "their nitch." There is much work and money involved and unless you find something that works for you, there are better places to spend your time and money.

Several of you, including Mike and LL, are nearing the end of your careers and don't have the above needs. You also know what works for you. The only reason that I can see to register cattle would be if you felt it was "worthwhile" for whatever reason- $$, completeness, passing something better to the next generation, etc. If you have a large enough following and can make enough $$ without papers or if you don't need more $$, the only reason is for the next generation of breeders or completeness.

Thus our needs are on the opposite sides of the spectrum, but we always have our wants.

I am too tired and must stop for now.

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:51 am

Quote :
will being registered help?

One of the first questions in the phone calls for the last two bulls that I sold. One wanted the papers and one wanted to see the papers. Both are commercial only.

I think that Ron is hitting on something with the reputation and established breeder issue.

Quote :
Can you sell a linebred bull in MO that doesn`t meet the typical looks and performance that producers are accustomed to?

Isn't that why you show them the female sibs and relatives so that they understand that they are getting quality maternal breeding? And if they want more terminal, we can all do some Model B types with AI on cows that are not the cream but would still be an economic blunder to sell. Larry mentioned that his maternal line bulls are more masculine. Would a visit to the bull pen to see what Junior will look like one day not be an educational field trip? I guess I'm talking "program" rather than individual.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:12 am

[quote="EddieM"]
Quote :
will being registered help?

One of the first questions in the phone calls for the last two bulls that I sold. One wanted the papers and one wanted to see the papers. Both are commercial only.

I think that Ron is hitting on something with the reputation and established breeder issue.

[quote]
Tradition; not reputation...yes, several ask about papers here, but the good producers don`t ; they ask or specify the results they want, and are wise enough to know the papered pedigrees in their hand have nothing to do with assurance of those results.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:12 am

What gives them the assurance, is it not your reputation or the past experiences that they have with your cattle? Would that past experience not be the reputation of your cattle?

Either tradition or reputation; would I want to sell a bull or not? I kind of enjoyed it! Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:36 am

EddieM wrote:
What gives them the assurance, is it not your reputation or the past experiences that they have with your cattle? Would that past experience not be the reputation of your cattle?

Either tradition or reputation; would I want to sell a bull or not? I kind of enjoyed it! Smile
the point is..it is not the registration paper that gives reputation...just the traditional appearance of reputable genetics
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:01 am

R V wrote:
A different thought, but I think relevant. Neither you nor Larry would have had your current success without the credibility that AAA gave you when you were starting out and through the beginnings of your programs. You both have progressed where you can live with or without AAA, but it was still a necessary ingredient for your success in the beginning as it gave you credibility then. You both have earned the name and the respect that you have, but without a breed association, you wouldn't have gotten out of the gates. We (new breeders) are faced with this same predicament as we get started. We would also like to start with the best genetics that we can afford. You and Larry + our early experiences have convinced several of us "children" that we were looking for/starting with the wrong cattle. What is a kid to do?

As I think about this concept, I believe it is one of the reasons that we disagree about the importance of registrations. Maybe this wasn't worded the best, but I think it is important. Please remember that I am tired and should be in bed, so this probably won't be as well thought out as I would like.

I think that for the new/unproven breeder, being a registered breeder is very important to help "establish the program" and create/begin validity. None of us can create registered stock out of thin air. We have to start with registered cattle that were bred by someone else. Everyone starts with cattle that they did not breed. If nothing else, the papers show that someone cared enough about the cattle to keep track of the cow, sire and birth date of the current animal and that the cow and sire were registered by a cattle association that has someone who keeps track of these records.

A cattle association gives the opportunity for and provides the appearance of a premium product. I believe this was true for LL in the beginning, as well as for you, to sale bulls at any sort of a premium over sale barn prices. Once you have an established commercial market, registration may no longer be needed. Most new breeders don't have an established market and have higher input needs - purchasing initial land, breeding stock, equipment, etc. vs proven breeders who usually have part of these expenses paid for. This makes us "the kids" a little more desperate. New breeders not only depend on previous breeders for the cattle to start their herds, but for advice on how to succeed (Like most things in life, we rarely get good advice the first time or if we do, we think we can do it better.). Most of us, Mike and LL included, have been trapped by "what glitters" (frame, milk, maternal, carcass, efficient...) at some point and usually towards the beginning of the process and think we can do "it" better. To stay in the business everyone has to find "their nitch." There is much work and money involved and unless you find something that works for you, there are better places to spend your time and money.

Several of you, including Mike and LL, are nearing the end of your careers and don't have the above needs. You also know what works for you. The only reason that I can see to register cattle would be if you felt it was "worthwhile" for whatever reason- $$, completeness, passing something better to the next generation, etc. If you have a large enough following and can make enough $$ without papers or if you don't need more $$, the only reason is for the next generation of breeders or completeness.

Thus our needs are on the opposite sides of the spectrum, but we always have our wants.

I am too tired and must stop for now.


All I really can expound upon is my perspective, start up breeders that run registered cattle on the coat tails of a larger more superficially successful breeders are a dime a dozen they buy into the program at often a substantial start up cost, the less qualified have to find new ways to market like say.... halter broke black bulls from top bloodlines hand combed on a daily basis when I get home from work ect...

The more qualified struggle to get there foot in the door and some buyers start to go to their sales as it becomes apparent they breed as good of quality for less money... so there sales averages go up and they are very glad to see all of their hard work and planning paid off, the more they make the more the figure they can spend on bulls from there mentors herd. Problem is there is only so much room at the top and this is the point I often see breeders exit.

I know being a commercial producer is fairly low on the totem pole but what would happen to a young start up breeder that started with commercial cows instead, less money out in the start. Learns how to make good money in the cattle business keeping his own pedigrees so he has paper to show that he cares Razz , although I think tissue would suffice Smile

Neighbours start to show up asking about his cows and wanting bulls.... they can’t create commercial cattle out of thin air either..... Smile

I have no interest in selling breeding stock, even to my family and I could make good money doing so at this point. After getting to know Mike and Larry I would consider sell breeding stock but only under a Tru-Line evaluated strain type system.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:08 am

r=orange]A different thought, but I think relevant. Neither you nor Larry would have had your current success without the credibility that AAA gave you when you were starting out and through the beginnings of your programs.
I must reiterate as you seem to ignore what I just said...There is great difference between Larry and my economic and genetic achievement. While the above could maybe be said of Larry; it certainly cannot be said of me. My profitability has been as a commercial cattleman; extra profit from the registered business has been miniscule in the overall farm profitability. The money I spent pursuing "registered" genetics, was less than many commercial cattlemen unneccessarily spend, and my greatest benefit from those expenditures was commercial benefit in improving the herd; not a "registered windfall." Spending more a couple of times, benefitted me even less.


You both have progressed where you can live with or without AAA, but it was still a necessary ingredient for your success in the beginning as it gave you credibility then.
Only in appearances because of the foolishness of cattleman previously mentioned in replying to Eddie.

You both have earned the name and the respect that you have, but without a breed association, you wouldn't have gotten out of the gates.
most registered breeders don`t like me; many commercial cattlemen think I`m crazy; a dumbass county agent said I wasn`t a cattle breeder...a breed association has had nothing to do with me being a profitable farmer/cattleman...hard work and management has been.

We (new breeders) are faced with this same predicament as we get started. We would also like to start with the best genetics that we can afford. You and Larry + our early experiences have convinced several of us "children" that we were looking for/starting with the wrong cattle. What is a kid to do?

As I think about this concept, I believe it is one of the reasons that we disagree about the importance of registrations. Maybe this wasn't worded the best, but I think it is important. Please remember that I am tired and should be in bed, so this probably won't be as well thought out as I would like.

I think that for the new/unproven breeder, being a registered breeder is very important to help "establish the program" and create/begin validity. None of us can create registered stock out of thin air. We have to start with registered cattle that were bred by someone else. Everyone starts with cattle that they did not breed. If nothing else, the papers show that someone cared enough about the cattle to keep track of the cow, sire and birth date of the current animal and that the cow and sire were registered by a cattle association that has someone who keeps track of these records.
create illusions of validity; my mission is to invalidate illusions.


A cattle association gives the opportunity for and provides the appearance of a premium product.
appearances; appearances...human nature always upholding appearances...

I believe this was true for LL in the beginning, as well as for you, to sale bulls at any sort of a premium over sale barn prices. Once you have an established commercial market, registration may no longer be needed. Most new breeders don't have an established market and have higher input needs - purchasing initial land, breeding stock, equipment, etc. vs proven breeders who usually have part of these expenses paid for. This makes us "the kids" a little more desperate. New breeders not only depend on previous breeders for the cattle to start their herds, but for advice on how to succeed (Like most things in life, we rarely get good advice the first time or if we do, we think we can do it better.). Most of us, Mike and LL included, have been trapped by "what glitters" (frame, milk, maternal, carcass, efficient...) at some point and usually towards the beginning of the process and think we can do "it" better. To stay in the business everyone has to find "their nitch." There is much work and money involved and unless you find something that works for you, there are better places to spend your time and money.

Several of you, including Mike and LL, are nearing the end of your careers
my breeding career has just begun; the first near 50 years were my educationaal time...I`m trying to save you that educational time; I can lead you beside the still waters, but only you can drink...

and don't have the above needs. You also know what works for you. The only reason that I can see to register cattle would be if you felt it was "worthwhile" for whatever reason- $$, completeness, passing something better to the next generation, etc. If you have a large enough following and can make enough $$ without papers or if you don't need more $$, the only reason is for the next generation of breeders or completeness.
yes, I have the next generation in my best interest; a reason I`m making this move to "unregister"...and I`m beginning to have great misgivings about my decision to continue to supply a few registered cattle/semen to past customers out of gratitude for their past support; maybe it is time they are weaned as well...if you can`t make enough money commercially with the cattle you have, what is their benefit as registered cattle? my expressed goal is to make seedstock more reliable, and to supply it for less money.

Thus our needs are on the opposite sides of the spectrum, but we always have our wants.

I am too tired and must stop for now.

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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:17 pm

This little round of banter has become rather entertaining for me....trying to figure out what my own perspective or interpretation of the need for registered cattle......and I think Mike's last post held the answer, for me at least, Seedstock is what Registered used to mean to me. I think it is about time Seedstock, is capable of standing on it's own merits, without the need for being registered.....a rather easy sell on the female side, bulls can be a bit more challenging of a sale, at least at a premium anyhow. I have seen females be discounted for being registered, it is not an altogether uncommon occurence.

Tradition is the only reason, at this time, for me to continue on the registered path, as it just seems a shame for me, at this stage, to nullify the works of 4 previous generations.......as with most people, I cannot agree with the association on all things, but I am limiting how much money they do get from me, partly out of laziness, to report all the crap they want.

Life is Good

Bootheel

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:55 pm

Bootheel wrote:
This little round of banter has become rather entertaining for me....trying to figure out what my own perspective or interpretation of the need for registered cattle......and I think Mike's last post held the answer, for me at least, Seedstock is what Registered used to mean to me. I think it is about time Seedstock, is capable of standing on it's own merits, without the need for being registered.....a rather easy sell on the female side, bulls can be a bit more challenging of a sale, at least at a premium anyhow. I have seen females be discounted for being registered, it is not an altogether uncommon occurence.

Tradition is the only reason, at this time, for me to continue on the registered path, as it just seems a shame for me, at this stage, to nullify the works of 4 previous generations.......as with most people, I cannot agree with the association on all things, but I am limiting how much money they do get from me, partly out of laziness, to report all the crap they want.

Life is Good

Bootheel

Everyone needs to do what they are comfortable with; if I was getting rich in the registered business; I likely wouldn`t quit...but then again, given my attitude of "no miracles", if I was getting rich, it would be at someone`s un-neccessary expense, and I`m not comfortable with that...enough is truly...enough. My particular {peculiar?}attitude is all part of nature`s human distribution and the balance thereof Smile
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:11 pm

Several of you, including Mike and LL, are nearing the end of your careers
my breeding career has just begun; the first near 50 years were my educationaal time...I`m trying to save you that educational time; I can lead you beside the still waters, but only you can drink...

Thanks again for taking the time! We also agree on most issues. Again, I think you have achieved more that you give yourself credit, but I agree LL has accomplished more. He has been "on the right track" for more years and has a different market. Matching either success financially would be great. Yours would pay for the farm and allow some more fun trips to visit other breeders/farms and LL's would also allow me to buy more land. The water has been cool and refreshing! Very Happy

I had fun last night and would like to post more, but work beckons!
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:03 am

This little round of banter has become rather entertaining for me....trying to figure out what my own perspective or interpretation of the need for registered cattle......and I think Mike's last post held the answer, for me at least, Seedstock is what Registered used to mean to me. I think it is about time Seedstock, is capable of standing on it's own merits, without the need for being registered.....a rather easy sell on the female side, bulls can be a bit more challenging of a sale, at least at a premium anyhow. I have seen females be discounted for being registered, it is not an altogether uncommon occurence.

Tradition is the only reason, at this time, for me to continue on the registered path, as it just seems a shame for me, at this stage, to nullify the works of 4 previous generations.......as with most people, I cannot agree with the association on all things, but I am limiting how much money they do get from me, partly out of laziness, to report all the crap they want.

Life is Good

Bootheel


Thanks for the input and positive outlook! If you get the chance, please message me with your phone number and/or directions from Springfield. I would like to visit this fall.
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:12 am

R V wrote:
Several of you, including Mike and LL, are nearing the end of your careers
my breeding career has just begun; the first near 50 years were my educationaal time...I`m trying to save you that educational time; I can lead you beside the still waters, but only you can drink...

Thanks again for taking the time! We also agree on most issues. Again, I think you have achieved more that you give yourself credit, but I agree LL has accomplished more. He has been "on the right track" for more years and has a different market. Matching either success financially would be great. Yours would pay for the farm and allow some more fun trips to visit other breeders/farms and LL's would also allow me to buy more land. The water has been cool and refreshing! Very Happy

I had fun last night and would like to post more, but work beckons!
I have achieved a lot ; mostly learning from, not costly, but time consuming experience...Funny, what I have most valuable and willing to give away, no one wants...maybe I should be charging for admission to Keeney`s Corner, then it would be more greatly appreciated as having merit; just like over priced registered cattle...
I know plenty more than I`ve ever applied; learning without application is useless...because Larry has been on the right track longer and has a more predictable product; how wonderful an opportunity that I can save time; catch up immediately, by buying whatever I want from the herd...and presto, just like that, propelled 30 years into the future in the direction I want to go...the closest thing to a time warp factor I`ve ever experienced Exclamation
Exciting things are happening; the times, they are a changin...we`re going to make some different and better things happen, or die trying. I intend to be a part of the future for the rest of my life, instead of clinging to the safety net of the past...
the man who goes alone, can start today; the man who needs a travel companion, must always wait until another is ready...I`m not waiting on you Ron Smile
for
Some men see things as they are and ask why; I dream of things that never were and ask why not
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:47 am

“The key is to just get on the bike, and the key to getting on the bike… is to stop thinking about ‘there are a bunch of reasons I might fall off’ and just hop on and peddle the damned thing. You can pick up a map, a tire pump, and better footwear along the way.”
-Dick Costolo, founder of Feedburner.com

“The critical ingredient is getting off your butt and doing something. It’s as simple as that. A lot of people have ideas, but there are few who decide to do something about them now. Not tomorrow. Not next week. But today. The true entrepreneur is a doer, not a dreamer.”
-Nolan Bushnell, founder of Atari & Chuck E. Cheese’s

“It doesn’t matter how many times you fail. It doesn’t matter how many times you almost get it right. No one is going to know or care about your failures, and neither should you. All you have to do is learn from them and those around you because all that matters in business is that you get it right once. Then everyone can tell you how lucky you are.”
-Mark Cuban, owner of the Dallas Mavericks, co-founder of Broadcast.com, founder of HDNet



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R V



Posts : 74
Join date : 2010-10-04

PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:50 pm

MKeeney wrote:
R V wrote:
Several of you, including Mike and LL, are nearing the end of your careers
my breeding career has just begun; the first near 50 years were my educationaal time...I`m trying to save you that educational time; I can lead you beside the still waters, but only you can drink...

Thanks again for taking the time! We also agree on most issues. Again, I think you have achieved more that you give yourself credit, but I agree LL has accomplished more. He has been "on the right track" for more years and has a different market. Matching either success financially would be great. Yours would pay for the farm and allow some more fun trips to visit other breeders/farms and LL's would also allow me to buy more land. The water has been cool and refreshing! Very Happy

I had fun last night and would like to post more, but work beckons!
I have achieved a lot ; mostly learning from, not costly, but time consuming experience...Funny, what I have most valuable and willing to give away, no one wants...maybe I should be charging for admission to Keeney`s Corner, then it would be more greatly appreciated as having merit; just like over priced registered cattle...
I know plenty more than I`ve ever applied; learning without application is useless...because Larry has been on the right track longer and has a more predictable product; how wonderful an opportunity that I can save time; catch up immediately, by buying whatever I want from the herd...and presto, just like that, propelled 30 years into the future in the direction I want to go...the closest thing to a time warp factor I`ve ever experienced Exclamation
Exciting things are happening; the times, they are a changin...we`re going to make some different and better things happen, or die trying. I intend to be a part of the future for the rest of my life, instead of clinging to the safety net of the past...
the man who goes alone, can start today; the man who needs a travel companion, must always wait until another is ready...I`m not waiting on you Ron Smile
for
Some men see things as they are and ask why; I dream of things that never were and ask why not

Fortunately I am still learning as I just figured out how to reply to a quote without copying and pasting. Very Happy

Your response is awesome and I hope sincere. It is good to see that I have contributed something to you as well. You probably don't remember our conversion, but it is nice to see a part of my thought process/conversation, but written by you. You have contributed more to me and I again thank you for that. In the learning process, it is important to learn from the teacher/mentor what you do and don't like and emulate the good and try to avoid the bad. You have helped change me in both directions and I feel these changes are for the good. Hence, why I am here and commenting.

I have never asked you to wait on me, but I hope I get to see "the different and better things!" I don't hold a grudge against you. It would be a wasted effort and a grudge only hurts the one who holds it. I likewise am looking to the future, but also am trying to help some from the past along the way. It is too easy to miss the little things.

Hopefully you won't forget that the companions usually make the trip more memorable.

Also, from my observations at your sale, you are "rich in what is important." I noted that you took the time to teach and people listened, you had many friends and supporters and comradery was noted. Best of all, you were working with your family, friends and neighbors. Your wife and daughter were priceless and both seemed to adore you and your accomplishments. Very few have these luxuries my friend, very few.

The verses below are from the funeral of a patient and friend that I attended yesterday. I added verses 9-13 because I felt they were appropriate as well. I was a pall bearer at the funeral and it was nice to see his family and hear about some of the positive things that he done. Unfortunately, the staff at the clinic only knew him as a grumpy old man. (No inferences intended. It was just sobering to know that a man had done such good things, but was only known for his bitterness and the resultant grouchiness for the many years that we took care of him. I only saw the truly good side of him in the last few days before he died and he died with my respect. Fortunately for me, I was privileged to be there.)

Ecclesiastes 3

Everything Has Its Time

1 To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:
2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.


The God-Given Task

9 What profit has the worker from that in which he labors? 10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
12 I know that nothing is better for them than to rejoice, and to do good in their lives,
13 and also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labor—it is the gift of God
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:45 am

yelp, being a contarian can be a rather lonely task; just ask Larry..but thanks to the communication reach of the internet, we`ve found enough to form a co-op of contrarians Smile ...and...our time is now Exclamation
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:50 pm

IMHO contrarians are necessary for the registered business to continue. If everybody did it the same way, marketed the same, used the same goals, used similar genetics with similar performance, etc., why would you need or want any registered associations or multiple breeds? Human nature is to want to do something better (different) and we repeat most of the activities/mistakes of our predecessors. As experienced breeders leave the business for whatever reason, they open market space for new breeders that have to establish themselves to survive in the registered business. Much like the bull elk, some obtain dominance for whatever trait is advantagious at the time (For the elk it is usually bigger and stronger, but could be tolerates a certain parasite, got lucky or whatever.) and some have little or no "dominance," but are still successful and some never make it. Some are successful, but aren't satisfied... Contentment with your successes (despite the "failures" along the way) is "the gift from God" mentioned above. Some call this the circle of life, but I think there is more to it than that.

Back to the point, contrarians do things different for their individual reasons and usually attract others with similar thought processes or the outliers looking for change, a beginning or dissatisfied with the status quo. Count me in this latter group. Oddly, without LL being in the registered business, I don't think this forum would have existed. Here is my simple take on this, but I don't know all the details/specifics and am not trying to make anything up and Mike please correct any mistakes that are worth correcting. I feel it is a common story repeated over and over in the cattle business and other businesses as well.

Mike goes to LL's sale to purchase a bull to improve his stock. He likes some of the results, but not all. Was it because he didn't get the best (more expensive) bull or not. He also tried "better" (one or more of the current dominant breeders at the time) genetics and liked them a lot less. He decided to try a better (more expensive) bull from LL. In this process of trial and error, he got to know LL and compared what he knew (life experience related to cattle and to people) to what he was learning and .... (Now you are taking time to read my ramblings. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Very Happy)

Without the AAA, the first connection would not have been made and this story of Mike and LL would have never begun. I don't think Mike would have driven that far and spent that money at that time in his career without his want/need of a registered bull "to move his program forward." Without LL's cattle/gene pool, I would have not gone to visit Mike... and the cyle continues. Was it an illusion that started this process? It is only an illusion if the cattle don't make the purchaser's cattle "better." We can debate the details, but these are my thought tonight.

Contrary thoughts and the discussions that causes me to think, keep me coming back and to spend my time here in this forum. "Thinking," the excercise of the mind, actually helps men to live longer in my experience, but they also need the "work" for this to be true. I hope to make fewer mistakes by "learning," but I still have to breed the cattle and take care of them to see if it works. Anyway, just trying to voice more reasons why I feel the AAA does serve a useful purpose and why I disagree with them for not registering cattle.
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:11 pm

R V wrote:
IMHO contrarians are necessary for the registered business to continue. If everybody did it the same way, marketed the same, used the same goals, used similar genetics with similar performance, etc., why would you need or want any registered associations or multiple breeds? Human nature is to want to do something better (different) and we repeat most of the activities/mistakes of our predecessors. As experienced breeders leave the business for whatever reason, they open market space for new breeders that have to establish themselves to survive in the registered business. Much like the bull elk, some obtain dominance for whatever trait is advantagious at the time (For the elk it is usually bigger and stronger, but could be tolerates a certain parasite, got lucky or whatever.) and some have little or no "dominance," but are still successful and some never make it. Some are successful, but aren't satisfied... Contentment with your successes (despite the "failures" along the way) is "the gift from God" mentioned above. Some call this the circle of life, but I think there is more to it than that.

Back to the point, contrarians do things different for their individual reasons and usually attract others with similar thought processes or the outliers looking for change, a beginning or dissatisfied with the status quo. Count me in this latter group. Oddly, without LL being in the registered business, I don't think this forum would have existed. Here is my simple take on this, but I don't know all the details/specifics and am not trying to make anything up and Mike please correct any mistakes that are worth correcting. I feel it is a common story repeated over and over in the cattle business and other businesses as well.

Mike goes to LL's sale to purchase a bull to improve his stock. He likes some of the results, but not all. Was it because he didn't get the best (more expensive) bull or not. He also tried "better" (one or more of the current dominant breeders at the time) genetics and liked them a lot less. He decided to try a better (more expensive) bull from LL. In this process of trial and error, he got to know LL and compared what he knew (life experience related to cattle and to people) to what he was learning and .... (Now you are taking time to read my ramblings. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Very Happy)

Without the AAA, the first connection would not have been made and this story of Mike and LL would have never begun. I don't think Mike would have driven that far and spent that money at that time in his career without his want/need of a registered bull "to move his program forward." Without LL's cattle/gene pool, I would have not gone to visit Mike... and the cyle continues. Was it an illusion that started this process? It is only an illusion if the cattle don't make the purchaser's cattle "better." We can debate the details, but these are my thought tonight.

Contrary thoughts and the discussions that causes me to think, keep me coming back and to spend my time here in this forum. "Thinking," the excercise of the mind, actually helps men to live longer in my experience, but they also need the "work" for this to be true. I hope to make fewer mistakes by "learning," but I still have to breed the cattle and take care of them to see if it works. Anyway, just trying to voice more reasons why I feel the AAA does serve a useful purpose and why I disagree with them for not registering cattle.

I pretty much agree- and without trying to impose cattle politics into the conversation I will repeat what I stuck on a thread on 5BarX regarding BOD campaigning...

In the last week I've received 6 politicking letters/pamphlets from board candidates that extort their great accomplishments in their having 10-20-30 years of ALL AI and /or top dollar boughten cattle that have performed greatly in the cattle shows around the country- and how well their big dollar cattle or big dollar part interest owned cattle did in Alabama, Missouri, Oklahoma, Ohio or whoever knows cattle shows/sales----ALL REPRODUCERS AND NO BREEDERS- all tied to or supporting the importance of the show world- which makes me wonder if the Board still represents/or wants to represent the hundreds of angus folks out there with herds that have utilized years of their own breeding/bloodlines (many of which were smart enough to miss the current genetic crash) that produce great seedstock for thousands of commercial folks that use Angus genetics......
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:28 am

what was is misunderstood; what is is subject to debate; and what will be because
is pure conjecture on all our parts...but I`ve every reason to believe the move to no registration will be a very positive step to begin a refocus on what is important in cattle breeding...and 20, maybe 30 years from now, we`ll play the same what if game and view this occurence in a very positive light. So far, I feel the argument against has been very short-sighted, somewhat selfish, and causes me to ask everyone who are you breeding cattle for?
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