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 Shoshone Encore semen for sale

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jbob



Posts : 23
Join date : 2010-10-08

PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:45 pm

I agree they have probably paid there dues. And for what, so the AAA can use there/our money to screw things up. I get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J.Bob Hould
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R V



Posts : 74
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:09 pm

I think the middle A is for alimony. Very Happy I had the privilege of visiting with Mike multiple times last year and got to go to his fall sale and see his cattle. He took the time to educate both when we visited on the phone and while we looked at his cattle. Unfortunately, I have only gotten to visit with Larry once and have only seen one thread here that he started, but he seems to spend more time in education and have a strong passion for his cattle. I really like his thoroughness (and the bull that I saw at Mike's). It just seems out of character for these men to toss away years of improvement as they near the end of the careers. It is their privilege, but it is our loss. To make it worse the alimony payments are inconsequential to their programs. Hopefully, we will make fewer mistakes as we learn from them. I actually am in hopes that they co-write a book (actually a series) because a lot of what they teach will take time to process.
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Hilly



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Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:12 pm

I can’t for the life of me figure out what registration papers have to do with continuation of a thought process and the improvement of beef production. scratch

I don’t see that Larry or Mike have any genes that could be patented due to the fact that they are not exclusive to their herds “There just cows”.

The fact that the direction of the association appears to be as close to opposite the direction people like Mike, Larry and others here have taken, tells me the fasts way to “toss it all to the wind” would be to associate themselves with the AAA.

The bulls I bought from Larry have all the pedigree and more information on families, types, function and ancestry then I could get from any registration paper.

I would think us “kids” could look at these independent strains the same as we would a new breed or a not so well known breed like Matt and Iain are working with, the pedigrees are just as trust worthy or arguably more so then those of a big association but the cattle will have to stand on their own merits when talking individual strains or breeds.... as they don't have all the distractions of a three ring circus clown

Of course I see potential for joint marketing ventures between strains such as say..... Tru-line Wink
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:37 pm

I can’t for the life of me figure out what registration papers have to do with continuation of a thought process and the improvement of beef production.

It provide validity for the breeder - particularly the new breeder. It has nothing to do with the thought process, but can be used to look back at previous thought processes of the breeder and can be used for improvement.

I don’t see that Larry or Mike have any genes that could be patented due to the fact that they are not exclusive to their herds “There just cows”.

The genes in their cows are not patented, but they have done a much better job of arranging them and eliminating deletrious genes.

The fact that the direction of the association appears to be as close to opposite the direction people like Mike, Larry and others here have taken, tells me the fasts way to “toss it all to the wind” would be to associate themselves with the AAA.

Each breeder gets to decide how they want to breed their cows and which cows they register. The "mainstream" was heading the other way, but which of us cares about them anyway.

The bulls I bought from Larry have all the pedigree and more information on families, types, function and ancestry then I could get from any registration paper.

Combine that with a AAA pedigree and it would be invaluable the new breeder, but it might take him/her a lifetime to figure that out.

I would think us “kids” could look at these independent strains the same as we would a new breed or a not so well known breed like Matt and Iain are working with, the pedigrees are just as trust worthy or arguably more so then those of a big association but the cattle will have to stand on their own merits when talking individual strains or breeds.... as they don't have all the distractions of a three ring circus

Of course I see potential for joint marketing ventures between strains such as say..... Tru-line

Also at some point, I would really like to come visit and see your cattle. I think you are also from the "Show Me" state.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:08 pm

Why would I want other breeders to mix up what I've spent so much time on trying to restore some genetic order

Who will continue the lines in which some of the genetic order has been restored?
cattle breeders

Hopefully, you both have found suitable successors for the registered cattle.
There are no registered cattle to find successors for; only a gene pool.

(I would like to use both of your genetics, but I don't have the knowledge nor experience to be such a person.)
hows does one gain cattle experience except by owning cattle?

Also for the best cattle (presuming persistent progress) there will be no pedigree to follow the progress over time.
...lack of a registration paper does not preculde a pedigree; although a pedigree does not mark progress, or a path to progress
Once you and Larry are gone or unable to breed cattle, the cattle will presumably be sold as commercial cows
That`s the way they are being sold right now; for more money than cattle with registration papers net in most sales

and those gains will quickly be lost.
Probably faster than in the registered arena, but I agree that this is breeder dependent.
Commercial breeders would be far more likely to maintain a gene pool than registered breeders...

Trying to purchase older semen or semen on current bulls or purchasing available cows/heifers will at least allow some of those genes to survive.
I`ve never known any cattle genes to go missing
If both are available, then there will be much less to mix up. Just let time and nature take her course - as with the Falloon cattle.
Falloon doesn`t sell any breeding females period; time and nature doesn`t set the course, breeders do.

(Unfortunately, this would require more capital than I have available.)
one needs about $1500 to buy a good bull here; and I sold some nice open heifers today for $825/hd...
I think the goodness would prevail if we can stay out of the way.
the registered rarity game won`t stay out of the way...

I also think that both of your cattle lines would survive over time - just like the Anxiety line for Mr. Lents.
Survival of a gene pool is dependent upon the breeder; not the quality of the gene pool.

A different thought, but I think relevant. Neither you nor Larry would have had your current success without the credibility that AAA gave you when you were starting out and through the beginnings of your programs.
Don`t include me in the same genetic accomplishments as Larry; I am always commercial cattleman first and foremost...if I had depended on registered cattle for a living; I would not still be farming...ever spraddled out on a tobacco tier rail Ron, with sweat running down the crack of your ass? AAA oversteps in the role of a breed association has made them my competition more than they were ever an asset.

You both have progressed where you can live with or without AAA, but it was still a necessary ingredient for your success in the beginning as it gave you credibility then.
You earn your credibility; no one gives you credibility; especially not an organization.

You both have earned the name and the respect that you have, but without a breed association, you wouldn't have gotten out of the gates.
BS; see above regarding tier rails; or follow Larry Leonhardt`s daily farming routine yet today

We (new breeders) are faced with this same predicament as we get started. We would also like to start with the best genetics that we can afford.
Wye Plantation sells registered cattle; Larry bought bulls early there; cows from various breeders long forgotten. I started with $125/hd registered heifers; Tom Gay {backroad breeders} started with supposed bottom animals{commercial price plus paper cost} from here 15/20 years ago, and has a fine, self-sustaining herd of linebred Encore genetics...

You and Larry + our early experiences have convinced several of us "children" that we were looking for/starting with the wrong cattle. What is a kid to do? Question
grow up and take responsibility for your desired genetic direction[/quote]
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:32 pm

Quote :
I think the middle A is for alimony. Very Happy I had the privilege of visiting with Mike multiple times last year and got to go to his fall sale and see his cattle. He took the time to educate both when we visited on the phone and while we looked at his cattle. Unfortunately, I have only gotten to visit with Larry once and have only seen one thread here that he started, but he seems to spend more time in education and have a strong passion for his cattle. I really like his thoroughness (and the bull that I saw at Mike's). It just seems out of character for these men to toss away years of improvement as they near the end of the careers. It is their privilege, but it is our loss. To make it worse the alimony payments are inconsequential to their programs. Hopefully, we will make fewer mistakes as we learn from them. I actually am in hopes that they co-write a book (actually a series) because a lot of what they teach will take time to process.

I`m a mere student; and a slow learner to boot; and not a creator of ideas or an author...at best an editor..
I haven`t tossed anything away; the genes are still right here and better than ever...I invite you to join the likes of Hilly and I and move a step beyond papers to gene pools; why linger in the past when you can be part of the future?...I`ve never been as excited or pleased when a young breeder drove 300 plus miles today to buy "model A heifers"...He`ll have a model A bull on them come spring if I have to loan it to him...another changed breeder will be here next weekend; same scenario...I`ve never been as excited about the next gene importation from Larry; sadly, dumbly, some of it has been here for 8 years and I just recently appreciated it correctly; now to concentrate it
knowing what I know today; damned if I would waste any money to start breeding with registered cattle period...I`d buy a set of commercial cows that best suited my goals; and off I would go...as long as you cling to a security blanket, you can never go further than the blanket maker lets you...
edit..oh gee, i just proofed this more throughly...
toss away years of improvement
oh my, no Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation ...instead the gene pool is being enhanced, and methodogy employed that will encourage continuity for years and years to come...


Last edited by MKeeney on Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jbob



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:35 pm

RV, I tried to warn you!!!!!!!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing

J.Bob Hould
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:54 pm

If you want to belong to an association and want to breed Shoshone cattle then just become associated with LL and Mike. A registration certificate, or lack of one, doesn't change a calf's DNA.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:09 pm

Hilly wrote:
I can’t for the life of me figure out what registration papers have to do with continuation of a thought process and the improvement of beef production. scratch

I don’t see that Larry or Mike have any genes that could be patented due to the fact that they are not exclusive to their herds “There just cows”.

The fact that the direction of the association appears to be as close to opposite the direction people like Mike, Larry and others here have taken, tells me the fasts way to “toss it all to the wind” would be to associate themselves with the AAA.

The bulls I bought from Larry have all the pedigree and more information on families, types, function and ancestry then I could get from any registration paper.

I would think us “kids” could look at these independent strains the same as we would a new breed or a not so well known breed like Matt and Iain are working with, the pedigrees are just as trust worthy or arguably more so then those of a big association but the cattle will have to stand on their own merits when talking individual strains or breeds.... as they don't have all the distractions of a three ring circus clown

Of course I see potential for joint marketing ventures between strains such as say..... Tru-line Wink
yes,a given... now be thinking of the packaging and the delivery system...
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:10 pm

R V wrote:
I can’t for the life of me figure out what registration papers have to do with continuation of a thought process and the improvement of beef production.

It provide validity for the breeder - particularly the new breeder. It has nothing to do with the thought process, but can be used to look back at previous thought processes of the breeder and can be used for improvement.

Validity of what? I am learning fast that most people follow by example myself included.

You can spend as many days as you wish looking through their records of what they did in the past if you are so inclined, but I have found that a simple pedigree is a poor indicator of thought process... the more I listen to pass reasoning’s behind planed matings and often unexpected results both good and bad.


I don’t see that Larry or Mike have any genes that could be patented due to the fact that they are not exclusive to their herds “There just cows”.

The genes in their cows are not patented, but they have done a much better job of arranging them and eliminating deletrious genes.

“Better” is in the eye of the beholder, for me it is not so much about the cows as much as it is the concepts but amazingly the cows are quite useful for their purpose. Smile


The fact that the direction of the association appears to be as close to opposite the direction people like Mike, Larry and others here have taken, tells me the fasts way to “toss it all to the wind” would be to associate themselves with the AAA.

Each breeder gets to decide how they want to breed their cows and which cows they register. The "mainstream" was heading the other way, but which of us cares about them anyway.

The bulls I bought from Larry have all the pedigree and more information on families, types, function and ancestry then I could get from any registration paper.

Combine that with a AAA pedigree and it would be invaluable the new breeder, but it might take him/her a lifetime to figure that out.

Combine that with an AAA pedigree and you would increase the odds that the new breeder will get washed down mainstream and the chance that he will spend his whole life swimming back to where he started. Larry and Mike have been there done that and they are telling us there may be a better way... but like all youngsters we tend to have to give it a try ourselves.

I would think us “kids” could look at these independent strains the same as we would a new breed or a not so well known breed like Matt and Iain are working with, the pedigrees are just as trust worthy or arguably more so then those of a big association but the cattle will have to stand on their own merits when talking individual strains or breeds.... as they don't have all the distractions of a three ring circus

Of course I see potential for joint marketing ventures between strains such as say..... Tru-line

Also at some point, I would really like to come visit and see your cattle. I think you are also from the "Show Me" state.

Visitors are always welcome, but there is not much to see Embarassed ... On second thought I think I have some CAA and AAA registration papers of some very expensive cattle around here somewhere unfortunately few have progeny out in the pastures Razz


Last edited by Hilly on Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:26 pm

I really wonder just how many want to join an association in creating seedstock that have greater genetic predictability and will sell purposedly for less money to commercial cattlemen?
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:08 am

Mike, thanks for taking the time to respond! I don't want to be an irritant, but appreciate the chance to comment. I am still learning from your responses. Hopefully, Larry will take the time as well. The only time I was at your farm was at a registered sale, but I appreciate the hours of non-cattle hard work that it takes to keep a farm in the black or at least mine and it appears that most of us have to do non-cattle work to build a herd. An oddity in this thread is that you have actually registered many more cattle in the past 2 years than I have. (There were more registerd cattle in your sale than I have registered.) I have the info. I just don't know if the cattle are good enough to register, but I have sold the culls as commercial cattle and they have done pretty well.

Why would I want other breeders to mix up what I've spent so much time on trying to restore some genetic order
Who will continue the lines in which some of the genetic order has been restored?
cattle breeders

These cattle are not available to the registered breeders and if "the gene pool" follows most in history, it will, unfortunately, disappear.

(I would like to use both of your genetics, but I don't have the knowledge nor experience to be such a person.)
hows does one gain cattle experience except by owning cattle?

Like on most issues, we agree. I think I am gaining experience and moving in the right direction, but only time will tell. I also feel that my registered cattle would benefit greatly from registered cattle from you and/or Larry. I respect the fact that you and Larry have NO RESPONSIBILITY to provide these genetics/cattle, but the truth is that they would advance my program.

Commercial breeders would be far more likely to maintain a gene pool than registered breeders...

This would not be the case in my region, but must be true in yours.

I`ve never known any cattle genes to go missing

I know of several mutations that are due to deletions/missing genes, but that is part of my job. In this case, we were discussing the concentration of desired genes.

If both are available, then there will be much less to mix up. Just let time and nature take her course - as with the Falloon cattle.
Falloon doesn`t sell any breeding females period; time and nature doesn`t set the course, breeders do.

Good point, but this would be the way that I would breed these cattle and I would want to keep all the cows and let nature decide which ones to cull in my environment.

the registered rarity game won`t stay out of the way...

This argument is bothersome to me because "the game" is with the $$ players and not breeders IMHO. I believe that those of us on this site are breeders or are trying to become "good" breeders. The only rarity in the cattle/pedigrees mentioned here have been created by you or LL in the past few years since you two have decided not to provide semen and/or certificates. AGAIN, THIS IS YOUR RIGHT, but it is your decision and you have created this "rarity." I will again state that I wish that you two would find a successor or return to the registered business for us "kids."

I would not still be farming...ever spraddled out on a tobacco tier rail Ron, with sweat running down the crack of your ass?

No, but I have worked multiple 100+ hour weeks and after nights without sleep, had that happen while I was coding a smoker and trying to keep him alive at 6 am in the morning. I doubt if you have ever had to tell a wife/children that daddy didn't make it. Hard work is hard work no matter where you are working.

AAA oversteps in the role of a breed association has made them my competition more than they were ever an asset

They have been excellent marketers, but I don't know this part of your and/or LL's history well enough to know why they are the enemy. It seems like they are trying to move forward and are exposing the problems that were hidden for years.

You and Larry + our early experiences have convinced several of us "children" that we were looking for/starting with the wrong cattle. What is a kid to do?
grow up and take responsibility for your desired genetic direction

I am in this process and is the reason why I am taking the time to post and trying to learn more. You and, indirectly, LL have changed my direction and I thank you for that.

bounce I am shocked that Mizzou beat Oklahoma. bounce

I have been watching the game while I have been responding and when I decided to preview, I see that there have been several responses. Hopefully, I will survive in the meantime. Very Happy











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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:18 am

Visitors are always welcome, but there is not much to see ... On second thought I think I have some CAA and AAA registration papers of some very expensive cattle around here somewhere unfortunately few have progeny out in the pastures

Ahhh! We are kindred spirits and have made some of the same mistakes! Very Happy Your thought processes have contributed to my education and I have enjoyed the friendliness of your responses on 5BarX. Fortunately, this forum seems much more friendly. Thanks!

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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:29 am

I really wonder just how many want to join an association in creating seedstock that have greater genetic predictability and will sell purposedly for less money to commercial cattlemen?

I had heard that LL had given up on this idea. Is it still viable?

Also of note, the average of your sale last year and LL's are much above the average registered sales in my area and would be outstanding in my book.


p.s. I am still learning how to reply to these posts, so I am sorry that there are so many.

Thanks again!
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:52 am

If you want to belong to an association and want to breed Shoshone cattle then just become associated with LL and Mike. A registration certificate, or lack of one, doesn't change a calf's DNA.

_________________
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Anyone can sort. Very few really breed.


I was hoping that spending time on this forum was an association with LL, Mike and 70+ other breeders with some similar interests and frustrations. Of course, we all live in different environments and have different life experiences, but that is what makes it helpful as one analyzes the responses. I would like to use their cattle, but I am staying in the registered business for a while and currently that makes it impossible to use their current DNA/gene pool. They both have registered cattle and semen if they want to sale them or re-enter the registered business, but that is not their current desire. The knowledge that is shared may be more valuable than the cattle, but the more I learn, the more I would like to see them on the hoof in Southwest Missouri. If we don't ask questions, we will never get any answers. We are also human and can't agree on everything. Where would we start a discussion? scratch lol!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:16 am

R V wrote:
If you want to belong to an association and want to breed Shoshone cattle then just become associated with LL and Mike. A registration certificate, or lack of one, doesn't change a calf's DNA.

_________________
www.SteadfastBeef.com
Anyone can sort. Very few really breed.


I was hoping that spending time on this forum was an association with LL, Mike and 70+ other breeders with some similar interests and frustrations. Of course, we all live in different environments and have different life experiences, but that is what makes it helpful as one analyzes the responses. I would like to use their cattle, but I am staying in the registered business for a while and currently that makes it impossible to use their current DNA/gene pool. They both have registered cattle and semen if they want to sale them or re-enter the registered business, but that is not their current desire. The knowledge that is shared may be more valuable than the cattle, but the more I learn, the more I would like to see them on the hoof in Southwest Missouri. If we don't ask questions, we will never get any answers. We are also human and can't agree on everything. Where would we start a discussion? scratch lol!
All of your posts are excellent Ron; and very much appreciated as we slowly get to the why of things...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:26 am

The #1 reason for have registered cattle is enjoyment. The biggest expenses with registrered cattle are AAA dues, AI certificates and registration fees. I did not mention AI semen since commercial and registered cows will be bred AI for a certian period of time then it is the herd bulls job to clean up. Early registration helps with the cost of registration fees. A cow is a cow regardless if she has papers or not. The only time registration papers come into play is when deciding on which bull canidates to keep. A good heavy weight feeder is far easier to market then papered breeding stock in my area.
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:36 pm

Quote :
I would like to use their cattle, but I am staying in the registered business
so, it is you that has declined the gene pool rather than the genetics being withheld from you ...
and I was counting on you to pay to flush this cow

to her son reg no 16266153 to produce 40% inbreds for use and evaluation...
oh well, so it goes Crying or Very sad ...drive up to Fortuna, MO; see the bull, and see if Bill and Chris Byers will sell you some semen and a certificate so you can be a registered multiplier rather than a gene pool breeder Smile
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:52 pm

I'll take that bet mike. might go well with the cow I'm going to flush. you tell me.

I need to make notes. where was she when I was there??
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:59 pm

Mike,
My offer to flush one of your cows to the bull of your choice is still open. Of course, I would do the flushing to help control the expenses and I would want to be able to register my percentage of the progeny. I am planning on starting a linebreeding program, but am currently planning on a program that is more along the lines of Mr. Lents. I have decided that most of my cattle are not of the quality to do this, so I am in the process of creating the first generation. Increasing the inbreeding coefficient doesn't bother me, but I will defer to you or LL or someone else that has more experience along those lines. I don't see this as "a fix," but just a breeder trying to get the best cow base that he can afford and then follow some of the principles that have been outlined on this site. I supect Jim Lents is correct in that if the cow base is closer in pedigree, the less time it will take. I am curious to see which ones will make it. My current thought is that there will be a percentage of LL, Falloon, NBar, and Sitz and I suspect in that order, but only time will tell and I will have to get past the heterosis to see what really works. Hopefully, the heterosis in the bulls/steers will help pay for the bills while the herd is growing.
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:11 pm

R V wrote:
Mike,
. I supect Jim Lents is correct in that if the cow base is closer in pedigree, the less time it will take. I am curious to see which ones will make it. My current thought is that there will be a percentage of LL, Falloon, NBar, and Sitz and I suspect in that order, .
Sitz? should an image, type, or lineage come to mind? it didn`t for me...Ron, as I continue to hassle you a bit because I know you, let me ask why the 4 ? Are you going to take the best from the 4; the femininity of the Shoshones, the guts of the Falloons, the range adaptation of the "true N-bars", and I guess the crafty-crossing of the Sitz, and outdo them all?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:37 pm

MKeeney wrote:
R V wrote:
Mike,
. I supect Jim Lents is correct in that if the cow base is closer in pedigree, the less time it will take. I am curious to see which ones will make it. My current thought is that there will be a percentage of LL, Falloon, NBar, and Sitz and I suspect in that order, .
Sitz? should an image, type, or lineage come to mind? it didn`t for me...Ron, as I continue to hassle you a bit because I know you, let me ask why the 4 ? Are you going to take the best from the 4; the femininity of the Shoshones, the guts of the Falloons, the range adaptation of the "true N-bars", and I guess the crafty-crossing of the Sitz, and outdo them all?

Maybe he has all 4 programs represented in his base herd already. One must work with what one has or have deep pockets to change the total herd out. Very Happy

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:54 pm

Quote :
Maybe he has all 4 programs represented in his base herd already. One must work with what one has or have deep pockets to change the total herd out

Once you have them in your herd are they your cattle or do they belong to four other people? To say that you own Sitz because you own a few animals that originated there or you used semen from a Sitz bull, ... are they really Sitz or just a fraction of the potential of what the entire Sitz program has been or will be?

Back to the topic of the thread, Mike made a statement that he has bulls now that might be better than the original Encore. What are the ways that these bulls might ecxell beyond Encore? And if you buy one to bring Encore into your herd, what part of the total of Encore's genes do you import? That's the trouble with all of this livestock breeding; you make a decision now and you might or might not find out a decade down the road that you made either a good or a bad decision. In the meantime you have assumed and sold based on the assumption that you were right. Ever go back in the closet and pull out a couple of old livestock books like a 2003 or 1998 Angus Journal? The pages are full of bulls and cows that will change the breed if you will only buy some semen or come to their sale with your checkbook. Jump ahead a few years and the bull is an unknown and the cow is never heard of again. What went wrong? Assumed to be good before proven to be good. Big difference there. What are we assuming about N-Bar, Sitz or whoever and how do you get it?
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:31 pm

EddieM wrote:
That's the trouble with all of this livestock breeding; you make a decision now and you might or might not find out a decade down the road that you made either a good or a bad decision. In the meantime you have assumed and sold based on the assumption that you were right. Ever go back in the closet and pull out a couple of old livestock books like a 2003 or 1998 Angus Journal? The pages are full of bulls and cows that will change the breed if you will only buy some semen or come to their sale with your checkbook. Jump ahead a few years and the bull is an unknown and the cow is never heard of again. What went wrong? Assumed to be good before proven to be good. Big difference there. What are we assuming about N-Bar, Sitz or whoever and how do you get it?


I think that is the reason you are seeing more and more looking back to bulls/bloodlines that were alive in the 60's, 70's, 80's-- that have over the years shown what they bring to a herd- especially the maternal lines that got diluted away with the chase for the biggest numbers...
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:50 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Maybe he has all 4 programs represented in his base herd already. One must work with what one has or have deep pockets to change the total herd out

Once you have them in your herd are they your cattle or do they belong to four other people? To say that you own Sitz because you own a few animals that originated there or you used semen from a Sitz bull, ... are they really Sitz or just a fraction of the potential of what the entire Sitz program has been or will be?

Back to the topic of the thread, Mike made a statement that he has bulls now that might be better than the original Encore. What are the ways that these bulls might ecxell beyond Encore? And if you buy one to bring Encore into your herd, what part of the total of Encore's genes do you import? That's the trouble with all of this livestock breeding; you make a decision now and you might or might not find out a decade down the road that you made either a good or a bad decision. In the meantime you have assumed and sold based on the assumption that you were right. Ever go back in the closet and pull out a couple of old livestock books like a 2003 or 1998 Angus Journal? The pages are full of bulls and cows that will change the breed if you will only buy some semen or come to their sale with your checkbook. Jump ahead a few years and the bull is an unknown and the cow is never heard of again. What went wrong? Assumed to be good before proven to be good. Big difference there. What are we assuming about N-Bar, Sitz or whoever and how do you get it?

What is good? What does that mean? Most of those ads were meant to hook people that had money to burn and thought that they could cash in quick on someone else's work. The registered business embodied by the hall of fame type people have little or no interest in what is good,,,, they only care about what they can peddle and make a buck on, with little regard for the usefulness of the product. The all things to all people mindset of the association makes producing good cattle very difficult.

I have a bunch of good cows, which I define as calving on their own, milking adequately, with good udders, as I don't have time to be helping calves nurse, breeding back and lasting in the herd and not being poor tempered. They also seem to produce calves that grow out on forages with desirable carcass attributes. What interests me in the Keeney cattle is that they also seem to have those traits and I want to be sure that I don't screw up and breed that out of my good cattle.... That is why I like the average concept, I think that most good cows are average cows. The more average, the more good
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