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 Shoshone Encore semen for sale

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Mark Day



Posts : 243
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:10 am

Hmmm - knowing that heifer bulls tend to give offspring with less mature weight and grow I find it interesting that 5 of the cows listed were heifer's first calves. Maybe it is nothing too.


#787 born 3/27/07 sired by #242 Not Reg yet (#242 sired by Lawrence 840 #14635003 out of cow 766 #14634988). (13th generation in our herd)
736 born 4/23/05 sired by Elmo .
764 born 2/20/03 sired by Ekalak.
718 born 4/20/00 sired by Link ).
752 born 3/8/95 sired by Prince.
723 born 2/27/92 sired by Ben.
714 born 3/20/90 sired by 106 (Laser 2310).
767 born 5/8/85 sired by Quent.
722 born 2/2482 sired by Beauigan
LJB7 born 4/3/80 sired by Leukas of Wye
JB7 born 5/14/78 sired by Titan
B7 born 10/18/70 sired by Beaufort of Wye
#7 the purchased cow born 3/8/64 (4454375)
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:29 am

Mark Day wrote:
Hmmm - knowing that heifer bulls tend to give offspring with less mature weight and grow I find it interesting that 5 of the cows listed were heifer's first calves. Maybe it is nothing too.


#787 born 3/27/07 sired by #242 Not Reg yet (#242 sired by Lawrence 840 #14635003 out of cow 766 #14634988). (13th generation in our herd)
736 born 4/23/05 sired by Elmo .
764 born 2/20/03 sired by Ekalak.
718 born 4/20/00 sired by Link ).
752 born 3/8/95 sired by Prince.
723 born 2/27/92 sired by Ben.
714 born 3/20/90 sired by 106 (Laser 2310).
767 born 5/8/85 sired by Quent.
722 born 2/2482 sired by Beauigan
LJB7 born 4/3/80 sired by Leukas of Wye
JB7 born 5/14/78 sired by Titan
B7 born 10/18/70 sired by Beaufort of Wye
#7 the purchased cow born 3/8/64 (4454375)
only the owner has a chance of knowing the significance of the pedigree individuals; the rest of us look and make assumptions that are often wrong...or look to find something to promote rarity...
As I move to a new paradigm of association and recordation, I have been asking the wrong question of those clinging to their registration papers...instead of asking, Who are you breeding cattle for? I should have asked How are you selling your cattle? if you are selling them by the lb, why do you cling to registration ?
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Mark Day



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Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:25 am

Quote :
only the owner has a chance of knowing the significance of the pedigree individuals; the rest of us look and make assumptions that are often wrong...or look to find something to promote rarity...
As I move to a new paradigm of association and recordation, I have been asking the wrong question of those clinging to their registration papers...instead of asking, Who are you breeding cattle for? I should have asked How are you selling your cattle? if you are selling them by the lb, why do you cling to registration ?


Certainly not disagreeing with the above but I was only looking at ages, not names and I am quite certain I have heard you say more than once that the heifer calves out of heifers often make the best cows. Is that a false assumption now? Is it a false assumption that heifer bulls produce an animal a bit smaller mature animal than a higher birthweight bull used on cows? I realize you did not call her your most profitable commercial cow. I am still wondering what info is best recorded in selecting cows that make one the most happy selling by the pound? It is suppose to be a beautiful day again and gathering info about my cows sounds like more fun than cutting firewood.
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R V



Posts : 74
Join date : 2010-10-04

PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:25 am

The fact that she is one of your favorite cows is all I needed to know. I would like to look back and see "the paint and brushes that made this picture" and to see the painter(s) at work. I suspect she is a Picasso.

Sorry, I forgot a couple of words and felt they were important to the explanation.

instead of paint and brushes making the picture, flips of the coin of colors made it...therefore, the same paint and brush swipes, can produce an ugly cartoon next time...the only thing that would make the picture more repeatable is a two-headed coin...inbreeding.

If I am getting this right, the beautiful picture linebred could make an ugly cartoon (or two) that makes many beautiful pictures. Question

Also a two-headed coin would always give the same result - even linebreeding isn't that reproducible.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:39 am

R V wrote:
The fact that she is one of your favorite cows is all I needed to know. I would like to look back and see "the paint and brushes that made this picture" and to see the painter(s) at work. I suspect she is a Picasso.

Sorry, I forgot a couple of words and felt they were important to the explanation.

instead of paint and brushes making the picture, flips of the coin of colors made it...therefore, the same paint and brush swipes, can produce an ugly cartoon next time...the only thing that would make the picture more repeatable is a two-headed coin...inbreeding.

If I am getting this right, the beautiful picture linebred could make an ugly cartoon (or two) that makes many beautiful pictures. Question

Also a two-headed coin would always give the same result - even linebreeding isn't that reproducible.
outcrossed can be ugly too...and yes, I left out a couple of words too...the only thing that would make the picture more repeatable is more two-headed coins...for outcomes are determined by many coins
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:45 pm

MKeeney wrote:
R V wrote:
The fact that she is one of your favorite cows is all I needed to know. I would like to look back and see "the paint and brushes that made this picture" and to see the painter(s) at work. I suspect she is a Picasso.

Sorry, I forgot a couple of words and felt they were important to the explanation.

instead of paint and brushes making the picture, flips of the coin of colors made it...therefore, the same paint and brush swipes, can produce an ugly cartoon next time...the only thing that would make the picture more repeatable is a two-headed coin...inbreeding.

If I am getting this right, the beautiful picture linebred could make an ugly cartoon (or two) that makes many beautiful pictures. Question

Also a two-headed coin would always give the same result - even linebreeding isn't that reproducible.
outcrossed can be ugly too...and yes, I left out a couple of words too...the only thing that would make the picture more repeatable is more two-headed coins...for outcomes are determined by many coins

Sorry, you lost me on this answer. Neutral I think this answer is for a question or inference that I don't see nor intend. Linebred regression can appear "ugly" or unexpected (Look at LL's latest reflection and his early linebreeding and unexpected 600 lb yearling heifers.), but their projeny can by very useful "pretty." This answer appears to be negative towards a positive linebred observation that was stated???

Please clarify the coin analogy. Does the head of each coin = one cow or one trait? That would be exact duplication each time and linebreeding apparently increases the frequency of desired traits, but not 100%. Both you and LL have made that clear or I did I miss something? I am not trying to be antagonistic, but am confused by this one.

In regards to this cow, you report that that she is one of your favorites - a success by your definition. Reviewing the pedigree allows for observations. Obviously Mark was able to do this because he mentioned that 5 of her ancestors were first calf heifers. Since this was a successful equation, what variables do we see that might help as we try to learn. Was the linebreeding coefficient high or low? What cows/bulls show up frequently? Were there outcrosses? etc. Mark's observation matches my own thoughts about keeping first calf heifers' calves. It is a common thought in my area that these calves should all be sold and not kept. The thought is that they will not make good cows and it never made any sense to me.

If you add LL's thoughts about each individual, as he apparently knows them all, this would be an excellent exercise in success. If there were examples of failures in a similar fashion, that would also be helpful. I am trying to learn as much as I can and trying to avoid as many obvious mistakes that I can, there will be plenty of mistakes that I will only see in hindsight, but that is the nature of the beast.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:28 pm

a coin would be a gene...there are many coins; many recombination possibilities...heads/heads or tails/tails{homozygousity} in more coins create more predictable results...
I wonder which fools us most breeding cattle...over-simplification or over-analization?
my trust is in the name Shoshone; I trust the name more than pedigree because I know what the selection criteria have been for 30 years; I know the selection has been by using the same type/model over and over again; until the type breeds true rather than breeding extremes to extremes for an instant cure. I know there well may be failures in the individuals in the pedigree; but pedigree does not tell me which one. I know only the cow`s ability in my pasture, and it suits me...I feel good about her future progeny reproducing her kind; because only her kind are in the pedigree...but I know this from the program, not the pedigree.
Shoshone is not about business as usual in registered breeding; just as the program is different, so must the customer approach it differently...the buyer traditionally studying pedigree and individuality to select "the best bull" wastes his own and Larry`s time. I have wasted a lot of Larry`s time Rolling Eyes
I won`t again; though I have the luxury of spending a lot of time looking; since looking at Shoshone cattle is my vacation Smile ...the bulls that have turned out best here were bought more from circumstance, or frivilous luck, than my expertise.
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:46 pm

MKeeney wrote:
a coin would be a gene...there are many coins; many recombination possibilities...heads/heads or tails/tails{homozygousity} in more coins create more predictable results...
I wonder which fools us most breeding cattle...over-simplification or over-analization?
my trust is in the name Shoshone; I trust the name more than pedigree because I know what the selection criteria have been for 30 years; I know the selection has been by using the same type/model over and over again; until the type breeds true rather than breeding extremes to extremes for an instant cure. I know there well may be failures in the individuals in the pedigree; but pedigree does not tell me which one. I know only the cow`s ability in my pasture, and it suits me...I feel good about her future progeny reproducing her kind; because only her kind are in the pedigree...but I know this from the program, not the pedigree.
Shoshone is not about business as usual in registered breeding; just as the program is different, so must the customer approach it differently...the buyer traditionally studying pedigree and individuality to select "the best bull" wastes his own and Larry`s time. I have wasted a lot of Larry`s time Rolling Eyes
I won`t again; though I have the luxury of spending a lot of time looking; since looking at Shoshone cattle is my vacation Smile ...the bulls that have turned out best here were bought more from circumstance, or frivilous luck, than my expertise.


Thanks! That helps. Since both over-simplification and over-analysis are extremes, I suspect they are equally bad. Smile

I also understand that you know what Shoshone means, but I - like most of the "kids" - only have very limited experience. In my case, most the good of Shoshone was seen in your cattle. A few other Shoshone-influenced cattle that I have seen on the hoof were not consistent, but I feel that was secondary to their breeders. I have not yet had the chance to visit with LL nor to see his cattle. It is on my bucket list though.

The viewing of the pedigree allows observations. Some are simple and valid, like the 5 first calf heifers in the this pedigree. Others are equally simple, but other observations are more complex. I agree assumptions are dangerous, but observations should be objective. Detailed pedigree analysis would be best done by one who knows the cattle in the pedigree.

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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:51 am

yelp, we have Shoshone linebred, Shoshone influenced, and even Shoshone pretented in order of consistency...the goal at Keeney Angus is for our name to someday confer a purposeful and dependable type or image upon one merely by saying our name...aways to go before I sleep.
none of this is to say Shoshone or Keeney Angus would be superior in all things; just more dependable in some things. One purpose here is to find other breeders who will choose the same goals; not the same bloodlines or types even, that would compliment the overall purpose of commercially producing more from less.
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:49 pm

MKeeney wrote:
yelp, we have Shoshone linebred, Shoshone influenced, and even Shoshone pretented in order of consistency...the goal at Keeney Angus is for our name to someday confer a purposeful and dependable type or image upon one merely by saying our name...aways to go before I sleep.

I am need of a short teaching moment. I don't know what pretented means... like kind?

none of this is to say Shoshone or Keeney Angus would be superior in all things; just more dependable in some things. One purpose here is to find other breeders who will choose the same goals; not the same bloodlines or types even, that would compliment the overall purpose of commercially producing more from less.


The second are in red should be your mission statement for this site! Hopefully, similar goals are good enough. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:46 pm

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
yelp, we have Shoshone linebred, Shoshone influenced, and even Shoshone pretented in order of consistency...the goal at Keeney Angus is for our name to someday confer a purposeful and dependable type or image upon one merely by saying our name...aways to go before I sleep.

I am need of a short teaching moment. I don't know what pretented means... like kind?
I have seen animals referred to as "Shoshone" that bear nothing in common with the Shoshone of today after 30 years of maternal selection.


none of this is to say Shoshone or Keeney Angus would be superior in all things; just more dependable in some things. One purpose here is to find other breeders who will choose the same goals; not the same bloodlines or types even, that would compliment the overall purpose of commercially producing more from less.


The second are in red should be your mission statement for this site! Hopefully, similar goals are good enough. Very Happy
I`m not looking for buyers Ron; some registered breeders/sellers just can`t comprehend that; too unusual...instead of looking for buyers; I`m looking for believers
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:48 pm

MKeeney wrote:
R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
yelp, we have Shoshone linebred, Shoshone influenced, and even Shoshone pretented in order of consistency...the goal at Keeney Angus is for our name to someday confer a purposeful and dependable type or image upon one merely by saying our name...aways to go before I sleep.

I am need of a short teaching moment. I don't know what pretented means... like kind?
I have seen animals referred to as "Shoshone" that bear nothing in common with the Shoshone of today after 30 years of maternal selection.


none of this is to say Shoshone or Keeney Angus would be superior in all things; just more dependable in some things. One purpose here is to find other breeders who will choose the same goals; not the same bloodlines or types even, that would compliment the overall purpose of commercially producing more from less.


The second are in red should be your mission statement for this site! Hopefully, similar goals are good enough. Very Happy
I`m not looking for buyers Ron; some registered breeders/sellers just can`t comprehend that; too unusual...instead of looking for buyers; I`m looking for believers

???? Who said anything about buying or saling???? Although most of your "believer's" will want to be or will be buyers at some point. I didn't mention that above + I am not sure how the quotes changed in the thread. I feel the quote that I will copy and paste below was outstanding and profound and summarizes the gist of this site. I usually like long explanations and insight, but this brief statement is good and deserves a compliment and that is the purpose of these responses, but I still don't know what pretented means. Question

none of this is to say Shoshone or Keeney Angus would be superior in all things; just more dependable in some things. One purpose here is to find other breeders who will choose the same goals; not the same bloodlines or types even, that would compliment the overall purpose of commercially producing more from less.

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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:36 pm

no, no..not you Ron,that I was referring to on the "selling"part...just the mainstream and the wannabe registered crowd...
to learn about pretend"-whoever-----"; read a Burke footnote...
thanks for the emphasis on the quote Smile
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:01 pm

I have had a chance to catch up on several of the threads over the past week or so and I would again like to thank all those who post, but especially Mike and Larry. "LL's Reflections" has been awesome and I hope it continues for several years!

I would like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a successful New Year!

Remember the reason for the season... Like a Star @ heaven
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:59 am

Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:54 pm

I have a few straws MK
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:07 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
I have a few straws MK

Sell it to RV; you moved past 6310 long ago...I can smell those $1000 certificates sales headed my way Smile
and thx for putting the move past semen in my tank Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:44 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
I have a few straws MK

Sell it to RV; you moved past 6310 long ago...I can smell those $1000 certificates sales headed my way Smile
and thx for putting the move past semen in my tank Smile

I would be interested in the Encore semen and would like to see the calves, since I missed out the first time around and I haven't caught up to 6310 yet. Knowing my luck, I would get a "great" calf out of every straw, but not be able to afford to register them through AAA. Maybe the price would be better for the "new breed" that Dennis is talking about and I could afford to register them there. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:22 pm

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
I have a few straws MK

Sell it to RV; you moved past 6310 long ago...I can smell those $1000 certificates sales headed my way Smile
and thx for putting the move past semen in my tank Smile

I would be interested in the Encore semen and would like to see the calves, since I missed out the first time around and I haven't caught up to 6310 yet. Knowing my luck, I would get a "great" calf out of every straw, but not be able to afford to register them through AAA. Maybe the price would be better for the "new breed" that Dennis is talking about and I could afford to register them there. Very Happy
Isn`t it amazing how money makes us smarter ? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Shoshone Encore semen for sale   Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:33 pm

RV, I better huddle up with MK, This could have some interesting potential, as I on a role today out trying to upset the cart.
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