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 Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?

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whitecow



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:18 pm

I think that selecting for traits with a heritablilty of 0.1 to 0.15 is a waste of time. If you cull an open cow because you don't want to feed her through the winter, that's a justifiable reason. If you cull an open cow because you want to raise the "genetics" for fertility in your herd, that's not gonna do much to help.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:23 pm

whitecow wrote:
I think that selecting for traits with a heritablilty of 0.1 to 0.15 is a waste of time. If you cull an open cow because you don't want to feed her through the winter, that's a justifiable reason. If you cull an open cow because you want to raise the "genetics" for fertility in your herd, that's not gonna do much to help.
exactly my perspective...
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:25 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
In all seriousness, quantifying fertility comes too slow; and the results from data collection are not commensurate with the costs for me...the % calf crop is the same as it was 30 years ago before data..of course, it might be worse without the data etc...on second thought, who has data? RAAA and Simm?

Agree to disagree..........most of the STAY EPD is probably determined when the female does not get bred back for the 2nd or 3rd calf. It is not like you are waiting for her to be 15 years old and then saying "wow, I wish we had used her sire more". Bulls can get good accuracy by the time they are 6 years old if enough daughters have been recorded. You might think 6-years-old is too long to wait. It might be when you look at waiting for the first bit of information. However, if data is also being collected on half-sib brothers (such as Traveler and Bando), the amount of data should "snowball" into a fair amount of information from a variety of pedigrees within 10 years.

And let's face two facts; 1) you have waited 20 years for the tru-line concept to become a reality and the beef industry is not there yet, and 2) you aren't going anywhere, why not get started. I don't see you as a 7-yr and out breeder...................
Bulls are 4 now before I past judgement...but...not enough daughters in contemporary groups in a herd my size to make any accurate evaluation
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:59 pm

whitecow wrote:
I think that selecting for traits with a heritablilty of 0.1 to 0.15 is a waste of time. If you cull an open cow because you don't want to feed her through the winter, that's a justifiable reason. If you cull an open cow because you want to raise the "genetics" for fertility in your herd, that's not gonna do much to help.

If we follow the theory like begets like then a problem breeder is more likely to produce more problem breeders. Most of PS high pockets daughters calved once hear and never bred back and fertility issues still show up in descendants. Does it matter if you call for economic reasons and or wishing to reduce the incident of problem breeders under your management style.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:49 pm

"Breeders often assume that it is virtually impossible to make genetic progress in traits that are lowly heritable because of the difficulty of identifying genetically superior individuals. That is true if we limit our sources of nformation to individuals' own performance records. However, with progeny records - and large numbers of them - the problem of low heritability can be overcome." - Rick Bourdan

So we agree culling open cows probably does very little to raise the overall fertility of the herd? However.........................

To me, the above quote means a person who culls the open cows is probably not making as much progress in fertility as a person who uses sires with EPDs that accurately ranks sires for their ability to sire daughters that excel in STAY. That EPD would probably be based on many half-sibs in different herds. So while Keeney Angus may not have enough Encore daughters to accurately determine fertility, the five (or fifty) herds that used Encore semen and turned in the data could significantly help rank Encore daughters for fertility.



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jhudson



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:18 pm

Is fertility heritability coefficient really reliable in view of variables? If heritability so low then how are certain cow families (including progeny) able to produce calf at two and every year after?
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sugar springs



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:30 pm

RobertMac wrote:
SS wrote:
Bootheel for 20 years I sold chicken equipment and made a good living. I was always asked why I did not have any houses myself and the answer was always the same I did not have enough money. There again for every gain there is something that has to be given up and one has to decide is the gain worth the cost.
Got to throw the BS flag on that one. I think it was more likely you saw(and profited from) the merry-go-round Tyson and other processors were putting producers through. Money was relatively easy to come by from places called BANKS...especially for someone with your experience. You just saw that Tyson would never let you get out of the hole you would be put in!!!

I always remember my first boss told me this and I try to practice it all the time.
We were at a farm show and I mean the ugliest women I had ever seen was walking by. I said "That women is so ugly she could stop a clock." He replied to be successful in sales you need to put it correctly. "When I gaze into her eyes she makes time stand still". Laughing Laughing

Call it what you want. Laughing The only way the chicken house deal is a good deal is if you have the CASH to build them. Know an oil man in Texas that put up close to $10 million cash in poultry houses. After all costs deducted had a return close to 9%. That is before depreciation and every other deduction you can make. Like I said I did not have enough money. If there was enough money in chicken houses all the chicken companies would build their own houses as they can get the money if they wanted.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:09 pm

It would seem as though the heritability of fertility makes progress difficult, which is pretty well agreed upon. EPD's for fertility could be useful, but the answer should be lieing in front of us already. That old cow we have hid out, still raising good calves, if we used her sons, even bred her back to her sons and used those sons, would that not be quicker and more reliable, than waiting 10 years for the data to tell us what is already in front of our face?

MK, seems as though you have a bull out of a 14 year old cow standing around with a cob up his backside, might not he increase the rate of fertililty? How about his daughters bred to a son from another teenager, and those bred to another? Nah, that would be foolish, I had better wait for academia, to come up with a numerical analyisis, to quantify the relative traits, into, a expected something or another to make the decision for me.


While making requests from the fertility gods, maybe one of ya'll familiar with the goddess of rain could do a little dance, maybe convince her of releasing some of that moisture from the sky.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:28 pm

Bootheel wrote:
It would seem as though the heritability of fertility makes progress difficult, which is pretty well agreed upon. EPD's for fertility could be useful, but the answer should be lieing in front of us already. That old cow we have hid out, still raising good calves, if we used her sons, even bred her back to her sons and used those sons, would that not be quicker and more reliable, than waiting 10 years for the data to tell us what is already in front of our face?

MK, seems as though you have a bull out of a 14 year old cow standing around with a cob up his backside, might not he increase the rate of fertililty? How about his daughters bred to a son from another teenager, and those bred to another? Nah, that would be foolish, I had better wait for academia, to come up with a numerical analyisis, to quantify the relative traits, into, a expected something or another to make the decision for me.


While making requests from the fertility gods, maybe one of ya'll familiar with the goddess of rain could do a little dance, maybe convince her of releasing some of that moisture from the sky.
about 95% of my fall calving cows re-breed in a 60 day fall calving season; why do I need to punch numbers in to improve 95 to 96%? or go from 60 days to 45 days, though looking this year, i pretty much did that already...it always seems to come back to another expensive, non-paying job for me, to create a paying job for a phd...
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:55 pm

patb wrote:
whitecow wrote:
I think that selecting for traits with a heritablilty of 0.1 to 0.15 is a waste of time. If you cull an open cow because you don't want to feed her through the winter, that's a justifiable reason. If you cull an open cow because you want to raise the "genetics" for fertility in your herd, that's not gonna do much to help.

If we follow the theory like begets like then a problem breeder is more likely to produce more problem breeders. Most of PS high pockets daughters calved once hear and never bred back and fertility issues still show up in descendants. Does it matter if you call for economic reasons and or wishing to reduce the incident of problem breeders under your management style.
aren`t fertility problems self-limiting?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:32 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
It would seem as though the heritability of fertility makes progress difficult, which is pretty well agreed upon. EPD's for fertility could be useful, but the answer should be lieing in front of us already. That old cow we have hid out, still raising good calves, if we used her sons, even bred her back to her sons and used those sons, would that not be quicker and more reliable, than waiting 10 years for the data to tell us what is already in front of our face?

MK, seems as though you have a bull out of a 14 year old cow standing around with a cob up his backside, might not he increase the rate of fertililty? How about his daughters bred to a son from another teenager, and those bred to another? Nah, that would be foolish, I had better wait for academia, to come up with a numerical analyisis, to quantify the relative traits, into, a expected something or another to make the decision for me.


While making requests from the fertility gods, maybe one of ya'll familiar with the goddess of rain could do a little dance, maybe convince her of releasing some of that moisture from the sky.
about 95% of my fall calving cows re-breed in a 60 day fall calving season; why do I need to punch numbers in to improve 95 to 96%? or go from 60 days to 45 days, though looking this year, i pretty much did that already...it always seems to come back to another expensive, non-paying job for me, to create a paying job for a phd...

No skin off my nose...you brought up the possibility of being in the driver seat if maternal lines were needed. I suggested you collect data to prove it. You are not willing to collect data. So I hope you don't have to prove it.........

In God we trust; everybody else bring your data. Author unknown but probably a Phd.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:12 am

Myself I would prefer to breed with a bull that whether it's a bull or female either one wouldn't be a disappointment.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:43 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
It would seem as though the heritability of fertility makes progress difficult, which is pretty well agreed upon. EPD's for fertility could be useful, but the answer should be lieing in front of us already. That old cow we have hid out, still raising good calves, if we used her sons, even bred her back to her sons and used those sons, would that not be quicker and more reliable, than waiting 10 years for the data to tell us what is already in front of our face?

MK, seems as though you have a bull out of a 14 year old cow standing around with a cob up his backside, might not he increase the rate of fertililty? How about his daughters bred to a son from another teenager, and those bred to another? Nah, that would be foolish, I had better wait for academia, to come up with a numerical analyisis, to quantify the relative traits, into, a expected something or another to make the decision for me.


While making requests from the fertility gods, maybe one of ya'll familiar with the goddess of rain could do a little dance, maybe convince her of releasing some of that moisture from the sky.
about 95% of my fall calving cows re-breed in a 60 day fall calving season; why do I need to punch numbers in to improve 95 to 96%? or go from 60 days to 45 days, though looking this year, i pretty much did that already...it always seems to come back to another expensive, non-paying job for me, to create a paying job for a phd...

No skin off my nose...you brought up the possibility of being in the driver seat if maternal lines were needed. I suggested you collect data to prove it. You are not willing to collect data. So I hope you don't have to prove it.........

In God we trust; everybody else bring your data. Author unknown but probably a Phd.
I thought/referred that DNA might/would be the proof...or we off again to collect a bunch of stuff with no practical application? just what will be known and applied when the genome is completely mapped? is a 95% calf crop in 45 days no proof of fertility without official recordation with a breed association ? if it becomes economically lucrative, will the data be skewed? why did all the young proof sires R Wallace used to buy have their epds change more than the yearling, unproven sires?
I`ll keep taking care of things at home, and it may not be skin off your nose, but it`s money that will stay on my hip, and my aggravation can be someone elses achievement ...
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:46 am

dunc wrote:
Myself I would prefer to breed with a bull that whether it's a bull or female either one wouldn't be a disappointment.

therefore, the above could be amended to say, "Myself I would prefer to breed with a bull that whether it's a bull or female either one wouldn't be a disappointment realizing that neither would be the best female , or the best bull/steer I could produce"
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:17 am

Some of the less inheritable traits that dna markers have been identified for can be selected at higher rate of gain. The Holstein breed is making faster progress in this area then any other breed due to the massive size of data base, dna material and USDA contolling the data.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:06 am

I can't quite grasp why the tests are breed specific.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:39 am

I am far from being a expert on this topic. It is my understanding some of the traits are accross breeds while others are due to founder affects and selection that made a breed.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:03 am

[quote="MKeeney"][quote="df"]
MKeeney wrote:
I thought/referred that DNA might/would be the proof...or we off again to collect a bunch of stuff with no practical application? just what will be known and applied when the genome is completely mapped? is a 95% calf crop in 45 days no proof of fertility without official recordation with a breed association ? if it becomes economically lucrative, will the data be skewed? why did all the young proof sires R Wallace used to buy have their epds change more than the yearling, unproven sires?
I`ll keep taking care of things at home, and it may not be skin off your nose, but it`s money that will stay on my hip, and my aggravation can be someone elses achievement ...

DNA can be valuable but a couple of things should be kept in mind. The value of a DNA test has to do with the amount of variation it accounts for. If enough genes can be located that account for a large amount of variation, then it can be good. DNA test are also valuable if the trait is hard to measure, expensive to measure (tenderness) or you want results prior to full evaluation of the trait (STAY).

The second thing to consider is the homozygousity of the gene in the population. It is very difficult, if not almost impossible to find the gene for black in Angus but would be easier to find in Simmental, Gelbvieh or Limousin (breeds that have both red and black cattle). Thus, genes that are in the heterozygous state now might be valuable to describe genetic variation for a trait but as the entire population moves to homozygousity, that gene would not be useful (because everybody has it). Thus, phenotypes would still have to be collected so that genes could be identified that account for variation (and current test would not be as important or valuabale).

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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:06 am

[quote="df"][quote="MKeeney"]
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I thought/referred that DNA might/would be the proof...or we off again to collect a bunch of stuff with no practical application? just what will be known and applied when the genome is completely mapped? is a 95% calf crop in 45 days no proof of fertility without official recordation with a breed association ? if it becomes economically lucrative, will the data be skewed? why did all the young proof sires R Wallace used to buy have their epds change more than the yearling, unproven sires?
I`ll keep taking care of things at home, and it may not be skin off your nose, but it`s money that will stay on my hip, and my aggravation can be someone elses achievement ...

DNA can be valuable but a couple of things should be kept in mind. The value of a DNA test has to do with the amount of variation it accounts for. If enough genes can be located that account for a large amount of variation, then it can be good. DNA test are also valuable if the trait is hard to measure, expensive to measure (tenderness) or you want results prior to full evaluation of the trait (STAY).

The second thing to consider is the homozygousity of the gene in the population. It is very difficult, if not almost impossible to find the gene for black in Angus but would be easier to find in Simmental, Gelbvieh or Limousin (breeds that have both red and black cattle). Thus, genes that are in the heterozygous state now might be valuable to describe genetic variation for a trait but as the entire population moves to homozygousity, that gene would not be useful (because everybody has it). Thus, phenotypes would still have to be collected so that genes could be identified that account for variation (and current test would not be as important or valuabale).

very helpful stuff Dennis..maybe there is a use for near PHD`S Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:12 am

df wrote:

The second thing to consider is the homozygousity of the gene in the population. It is very difficult, if not almost impossible to find the gene for black in Angus but would be easier to find in Simmental, Gelbvieh or Limousin (breeds that have both red and black cattle). Thus, genes that are in the heterozygous state now might be valuable to describe genetic variation for a trait but as the entire population moves to homozygousity, that gene would not be useful (because everybody has it). Thus, phenotypes would still have to be collected so that genes could be identified that account for variation (and current test would not be as important or valuabale).

Would this be why some parentage test come back as inconclusive if the possible sires are very closely related? Or put another way, would DNA testing be able to determine the sire of a multiple sire breeding program if several of the sires are from a very closebred genepool (assuming highly homozygous)?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:40 am

MKeeney wrote:
is a 95% calf crop in 45 days no proof of fertility without official recordation with a breed association ?
Proof should only need to be validated to or by the customer...if the customers fertility improves, should certainly make the satisfied.

When I first bought my registered cattle, they bred back at about a 60% rate in the same pasture as my father-in-law's mixed crossbreds which bred 95%+. When I brought in Lasater genetics and started culling the non-fertile, they when to around 90%. Not perfect...no data...but I'm satisfied!

I'm not smart enough on genetics to understand all the heritability stuff, but I understand something Tom Lasater said...select for it and you'll get it. Seems too simple to work!
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:49 am

If breeders do the right thing in disposing of the junk this inadvertently take care of our customers. Genetic defects point to that undisputedly, if the cows with dead calves were culled, a lot less of this crap would have plagued the industry.

Lots of commercial herds out there that would out do a purebred herd for the simple fact that their goals haven't changed. They selected the females they wanted for replacements and got rid of the trouble ones. The registered business seems to place a lot of emphasis on phenotype and while this is important, cows that are productive and sound long into their career tend to share a certain look don't they? I guess this is where the function and form comes together.

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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:10 pm

Quote :
Some of the less inheritable traits that dna markers have been identified for can be selected at higher rate of gain. The Holstein breed is making faster progress in this area then any other breed due to the massive size of data base, dna material and USDA contolling the data.

And, are the individual dairy farmers making anymore money than 2, 5 or 10 years ago? Around here, they are going out of business or are struggling to stay in business. Did extreme genetic selection and government support really help the industry or the producer?

Most folks will not select for fertility as a priority because they do not like the looks of the fertile cattle and have other priority goals. And with Larry's discussion of genes turning on and off, does like really always breed like? Apparently not in each generation. And you have to define "like" and live with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:24 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
df wrote:

The second thing to consider is the homozygousity of the gene in the population. It is very difficult, if not almost impossible to find the gene for black in Angus but would be easier to find in Simmental, Gelbvieh or Limousin (breeds that have both red and black cattle). Thus, genes that are in the heterozygous state now might be valuable to describe genetic variation for a trait but as the entire population moves to homozygousity, that gene would not be useful (because everybody has it). Thus, phenotypes would still have to be collected so that genes could be identified that account for variation (and current test would not be as important or valuabale).

Would this be why some parentage test come back as inconclusive if the possible sires are very closely related? Or put another way, would DNA testing be able to determine the sire of a multiple sire breeding program if several of the sires are from a very closebred genepool (assuming highly homozygous)?

Dwight,

Speaking from my experience, the initial test is for a set of just a few markers. Then you can have an additional test with more markers to further narrow it down. We have had a few that were unidentifiable even after a couple rounds. There are usually quite a few with 6-7 out of 15+ possible sires who qualify with the first round. Huge opportunity for shysters to hide behind third party verified SCIENCE to legitimize their activity. Way over marketed and sure as heck more accurate if there is a whole pen of sires to compare. We now have nearly 100% of the dams profiled, which helps significantly. Not the be all end all 100% verification it is promoted or presumed to be. But heck, what is?



Last edited by Keystone on Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:28 pm

patb wrote:
I am far from being a expert on this topic. It is my understanding some of the traits are accross breeds while others are due to founder affects and selection that made a breed.

So, if the traits are breed specific as they are based on the current popular Angus population and the founder effects found therein, is there any reason to believe that some of the lines that I work with that are fairly distinct will be accurately profiled?
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