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 Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:15 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
patb wrote:
I am approaching DNA genomics the same way I approached EPD's cautously. I am sampling my herd bulls and will have a better idea in several years. I am trying to use bulls that have genomic profile and genetic defect tests done. The price of genetic testing is cheaper than discovering that you have a defect several generation later that could of been avoided by testing. How many linebreeding projects faltered due to a genetic defect showing up?
in a rare positive exploration for me, what if, DNA shows those herds that have linebred for maternal traits{or other traits} to be more homozygous for a batch of needed traits? Might DNA be the genetic proof that turns breeding from a phenotypic hodpodge to genotypic matings? and the linebreeder finally reaps his just monetary reward?

But someone would have to MEASURE those traits, and put a patent on those traits because right now anybody can almost corner the market by buying a few $1500 bulls from KY.
I`m not a linebreeder; so it isn`t going to happen here...Couldn`t Shoshone genetics recieve the same protection/royalities as roundup beans?
and once again, I request someone to quote me the EPD`s or other MEASUREMENTS that make a profitable cow...
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sugar springs



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:14 am

No question there is a price for every gain one makes in choosing traits. The constant enviorement is needed to offset the lack of ability by the current population of chickens to acclimate to change. So yes enviorement is critical.

Bootheel for 20 years I sold chicken equipment and made a good living. I was always asked why I did not have any houses myself and the answer was always the same I did not have enough money. There again for every gain there is something that has to be given up and one has to decide is the gain worth the cost.

Mkeeny in my opinion is headed down a road I think is worth traveling. The maternal side of Angus has always been abused and has been drug in many directions but in trying to get too much too fast there is a cost for the gain. Many did not want to pay the price of the gain but if you want a short cut to get to the top sometimes there is a high cost for the gain. Remember early on when I bred a female to have over 100 YW epd. By gosh there was growth there just that the growth did not stop at a year of age. Shocked

Not saying chicken production will work with cattle just sometimes folks have a tendency to not look outside the box. Chicken has overtaken beef in consumption in the US. Maybe it would not hurt to look around at what is being accomplished by the competition and not copy but look at things a little differently that we are doing. To me that is why so many want to read the latest that LL wrote. He thinks outside the box does not mean you have to agree or disagree but get outside the box and look around. Otherwise you just keep doing the same old thing and you keep cussing the fact you keep getting the same results.

I too will continue to use all the tools that I can in making selections moving forward. No I will not follow DNA strictly nor will I follow EPD's alone but will continue to try and use all the tools available for my little world to move in the direction I want to move. sunny
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sugar springs



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:30 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
patb wrote:
I am approaching DNA genomics the same way I approached EPD's cautously. I am sampling my herd bulls and will have a better idea in several years. I am trying to use bulls that have genomic profile and genetic defect tests done. The price of genetic testing is cheaper than discovering that you have a defect several generation later that could of been avoided by testing. How many linebreeding projects faltered due to a genetic defect showing up?
in a rare positive exploration for me, what if, DNA shows those herds that have linebred for maternal traits{or other traits} to be more homozygous for a batch of needed traits? Might DNA be the genetic proof that turns breeding from a phenotypic hodpodge to genotypic matings? and the linebreeder finally reaps his just monetary reward?

But someone would have to MEASURE those traits, and put a patent on those traits because right now anybody can almost corner the market by buying a few $1500 bulls from KY.
I`m not a linebreeder; so it isn`t going to happen here...Couldn`t Shoshone genetics recieve the same protection/royalities as roundup beans?
and once again, I request someone to quote me the EPD`s or other MEASUREMENTS that make a profitable cow...

Couldn`t Shoshone genetics recieve the same protection/royalities as roundup beans?
Only if Shoshone genetics filed a patent on the gene that makes a Shoshone unique for what ever trait is attributed to that gene or batch of genes.
Isn't the patent on roundup beans on the genes that are resistent to roundup? My understanding is not a patent on soybeans but soybeans resistent to roundup is the patent.

I request someone to quote me the EPD`s or other MEASUREMENTS that make a profitable cow
There again looking for the magic bullet that does not exist. EPD's are tools to be used in producing cattle.
Does owning all the tools to build a house automatically make me a house builder?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:56 am

MKeeney wrote:
Couldn`t Shoshone genetics recieve the same protection/royalities as roundup beans?
Roundup ready soybeans are a result of Monsanto's genetic manipulation...that process and the resulting genetics are patentable. 90% of beans grown in USA are, genetically, the property of Monsanto. If a company develops a process to put a tenderness gene in embryos, that process and the resulting genetics will be their property...independent cattle breeders will be history.

MKeeney wrote:
Might DNA be the genetic proof that turns breeding from a phenotypic hodpodge to genotypic matings?
Bonsma showed that genotype has to go through environment to get the resulting phenotype. The point I was making to SS and that Bootheel backed up, was until we raise cows in those high dollar controlled environment houses, the same genotype will result in different phenotype because of environment. Diversity of our product is what will keep cattlemen independent...'one size fits all' and the irrelevant drive for consistency of product will lead to packer cartel control.

MKeeney wrote:
I see the technological revolution in beef creating the same serfdom economic scenario for beef producers...those that don`t follow might have to sell direct...so laws may be made, are being made, to prevent that?

HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE!!!! HACCP has gone a long way to eliminate independent USDA and State inspected processors who are the avenue for direct marketing. I have a "Grassfed" USDA label, but no where to use it...this locks me out of the 'for resale' retail market. An inspector stopped by the other day and told me of new regulations on transporting 'for resale' labeled beef that will substantially raise the cost of transportation...prohibitly raise it for small producers like me.

The problem is that most producer could care less about these issues, RIGHT NOW, but when the day comes that you will be told where to buy your bulls(and probably where to buy your cows), where you are required to sell ALL your calves(because without a contract, you will be heavily discounted if you can find a FREE MARKET to sell through), and what you will be paid for your management of their product.

Think it's not possible...look at pork and poultry...the same companies sell 80%+ of beef!!!
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:08 am

SS wrote:
Bootheel for 20 years I sold chicken equipment and made a good living. I was always asked why I did not have any houses myself and the answer was always the same I did not have enough money. There again for every gain there is something that has to be given up and one has to decide is the gain worth the cost.
Got to throw the BS flag on that one. I think it was more likely you saw(and profited from) the merry-go-round Tyson and other processors were putting producers through. Money was relatively easy to come by from places called BANKS...especially for someone with your experience. You just saw that Tyson would never let you get out of the hole you would be put in!!!
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:16 am

Of course Mike you will need a stable of lawyers ready and willing to sue your neighbors should a bull stray, in order to protect Shoshone genetics....on second thought it might be a good way to get your neighbors to fix fence Very Happy


Robert you just made a good argument for sending R-CALF dues. When it comes down to it which organizations [including breed] will stand up for independent cattlemen.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:56 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
patb wrote:
I am approaching DNA genomics the same way I approached EPD's cautously. I am sampling my herd bulls and will have a better idea in several years. I am trying to use bulls that have genomic profile and genetic defect tests done. The price of genetic testing is cheaper than discovering that you have a defect several generation later that could of been avoided by testing. How many linebreeding projects faltered due to a genetic defect showing up?
in a rare positive exploration for me, what if, DNA shows those herds that have linebred for maternal traits{or other traits} to be more homozygous for a batch of needed traits? Might DNA be the genetic proof that turns breeding from a phenotypic hodpodge to genotypic matings? and the linebreeder finally reaps his just monetary reward?

But someone would have to MEASURE those traits, and put a patent on those traits because right now anybody can almost corner the market by buying a few $1500 bulls from KY.
I`m not a linebreeder; so it isn`t going to happen here...Couldn`t Shoshone genetics recieve the same protection/royalities as roundup beans?
and once again, I request someone to quote me the EPD`s or other MEASUREMENTS that make a profitable cow...

You might start with something important like fertility...........................
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:23 am

ooookkkkkk...give me the measurement/equation that separates fertility effects from environmental effects...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:21 pm

MKeeney wrote:
ooookkkkkk...give me the measurement/equation that separates fertility effects from environmental effects...

It is done like all of the other traits; you submit the data on females within their proper contemporary groups.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:01 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
ooookkkkkk...give me the measurement/equation that separates fertility effects from environmental effects...

It is done like all of the other traits; you submit the data on females within their proper contemporary groups.
and that will seperate fertility from compatability of environmental input versus production output potential? more simply put; that will seperate feed from fertility?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:33 pm

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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:36 pm

I think one of the challenges of using breed association data for fertility is that the environment can be significantly different from one producer to another and I am not sure how that might change things. For example, could easy-fleshing cattle be at a disadvantage in a high feed environment, such as the East but be at an advantage in the West. In addition, is all of the data coming from seedstock herds with similar environments as many commercial herds or are the contributors of data also the high (or really low) feed resource areas.

It may not matter, IF ENOUGH DATA IS SUBMITTED to the breed association.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:12 pm

df wrote:
I think one of the challenges of using breed association data for fertility is that the environment can be significantly different from one producer to another and I am not sure how that might change things. For example, could easy-fleshing cattle be at a disadvantage in a high feed environment, such as the East but be at an advantage in the West. In addition, is all of the data coming from seedstock herds with similar environments as many commercial herds or are the contributors of data also the high (or really low) feed resource areas.

It may not matter, IF ENOUGH DATA IS SUBMITTED to the breed association.
if fertlity measurement requires my co-operation with a breed association; it will not be measured by me, just culled ...
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:13 pm

RobertMac wrote:
SS wrote:
Bootheel for 20 years I sold chicken equipment and made a good living. I was always asked why I did not have any houses myself and the answer was always the same I did not have enough money. There again for every gain there is something that has to be given up and one has to decide is the gain worth the cost.
Got to throw the BS flag on that one. I think it was more likely you saw(and profited from) the merry-go-round Tyson and other processors were putting producers through. Money was relatively easy to come by from places called BANKS...especially for someone with your experience. You just saw that Tyson would never let you get out of the hole you would be put in!!!


Robert, you summed up the situation with corporate meat production to a TEE, the banks here are running like scared little school girls.......the tactics of the afformentioned dictarship have caught up with them.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:24 am

df wrote:
http://simmental.org/


http://simmental.org/userimages/library/March%2008%20SimTalkImproving%20Cowherd%20Reprod.pdf
the above is very good at dispelling some promoted myths of the BS marketers...especially the "fleshing ease-fertility" and "scrotal circumference-daughter fertility" relationship myths
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:00 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
http://simmental.org/


http://simmental.org/userimages/library/March%2008%20SimTalkImproving%20Cowherd%20Reprod.pdf
the above is very good at dispelling some promoted myths of the BS marketers...especially the "fleshing ease-fertility" and "scrotal circumference-daughter fertility" relationship myths

Those stupid, self-serving breed associations; how did they figure that out?
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jhudson



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:49 am

Mike, Have to give my breed some credit. Red Angus was first and initially only breed to address maternal traits and reproduction. Most others focus as you know on maximizing growth and milk. The articles of course credit RAAA. Jim
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:08 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
http://simmental.org/


http://simmental.org/userimages/library/March%2008%20SimTalkImproving%20Cowherd%20Reprod.pdf
the above is very good at dispelling some promoted myths of the BS marketers...especially the "fleshing ease-fertility" and "scrotal circumference-daughter fertility" relationship myths

Those stupid, self-serving breed associations; how did they figure that out?
they analyzed thousands of records; and yet the correlations are of very limited accuracy; no great claim to figuring things out there in my opinion...University trained people, at a university or a breed association, do a pretty good job of telling breeders what they have done, a much poorer job of telling you what needs to be done to accomplish something, and when given taxpayer money to actually breed cattle?? totally useless...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:44 pm

Nobody is good at everything. If somebody is good at data analysis, then that will probably be there focus. If a person is good at teaching a subject, hopefully they will find success in teaching. Some people were born to be marketers, or doctors or lawyers, etc. No reason to believe that a person trained at a university or works at a university is good at everything.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:06 pm

Quote :
Nobody is good at everything. If somebody is good at data analysis, then that will probably be there focus. If a person is good at teaching a subject, hopefully they will find success in teaching. Some people were born to be marketers, or doctors or lawyers, etc. No reason to believe that a person trained at a university or works at a university is good at everything.

Everybody has a place and every group has a purpose. Even like the old saying, "it takes people like you to make people like me!" clown

If the association is out of sorts and the employees are not suited, then it takes guts to correct both and/or change. And, everybody who has accomplished a certain skill set can usually learn other tasks, too. Every organization moves toward self-serving and ends up top heavy. Take congress for an example. If every senator and rep had one office helper and that was all, a lot of the junk would stop. But with huge staffs, then the extras become necessary to keep everybody busy and most staffers go there looking for a job for either ego or self appointed purpose. Let the AAA cut out the fluff stuff and see what they know about equal service to all producers, breeding useful cattle, generating useful data and giving every contact their money's worth. It'd be a whole new ballgame; like a breath of fresh air. But an aged organization usually continues to bloat as they head from uselessness toward death.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:46 pm

df wrote:
Nobody is good at everything. If somebody is good at data analysis, then that will probably be there focus. If a person is good at teaching a subject, hopefully they will find success in teaching. Some people were born to be marketers, or doctors or lawyers, etc. No reason to believe that a person trained at a university or works at a university is good at everything.
or maybe anything? Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:53 pm

In all seriousness, quantifying fertility comes too slow; and the results from data collection are not commensurate with the costs for me...the % calf crop is the same as it was 30 years ago before data..of course, it might be worse without the data etc...on second thought, who has data? RAAA and Simm?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:10 pm

Tom Lasater's (founder of the beefmasters) philosophy would increase fertility if strictly applied. The resultling herd would be highly adapted to your management style and those that fail to reproduce would not pass their genes on. I am not sure what level measured traits the surving animals would have. All I now is some AI bulls have left no influence in the herd.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:07 pm

MKeeney wrote:
In all seriousness, quantifying fertility comes too slow; and the results from data collection are not commensurate with the costs for me...the % calf crop is the same as it was 30 years ago before data..of course, it might be worse without the data etc...on second thought, who has data? RAAA and Simm?

Agree to disagree..........most of the STAY EPD is probably determined when the female does not get bred back for the 2nd or 3rd calf. It is not like you are waiting for her to be 15 years old and then saying "wow, I wish we had used her sire more". Bulls can get good accuracy by the time they are 6 years old if enough daughters have been recorded. You might think 6-years-old is too long to wait. It might be when you look at waiting for the first bit of information. However, if data is also being collected on half-sib brothers (such as Traveler and Bando), the amount of data should "snowball" into a fair amount of information from a variety of pedigrees within 10 years.

And let's face two facts; 1) you have waited 20 years for the tru-line concept to become a reality and the beef industry is not there yet, and 2) you aren't going anywhere, why not get started. I don't see you as a 7-yr and out breeder...................
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Genomics, sexed semen and maternal and terminal cattle?   Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:08 pm

The secret to success is.............................focus!
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