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 Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:02 am

OAK LANE FARM wrote:
How in the world did you know I was there? Cristoff was gone but his wife Erika showed me around . I thought the calves were ok but really could not tell much as they were June calves. I guess they looked a lot like the crossed Pinebank cattle would to me. It snowed the whole time I was up there or I may have had some pictures. I visited Ronan with 55 years of Angus history and saw some cattle there I liked. I think the breeders on this site may have appreciated a gentleman by the name of Ed Mostad, Grassy Lanes Angus that had a mild linebreeding program going and had a fair amount of cattle that were moderate sized. Ed was 79 years old and still getting around doing a fine job with his cattle. Ed did a great job of articlulating the concept of being a breeder. The wolves had moved the cows into the home pasture the night before. There was a sharp heifer that had a little wolf mark on her butt.
I just assumed anyone touring the Peace Valley would surely stop to see the results of a 40 year closed herd, grass produced breeding program..not too concerned about what the calves looked like, more interested in the look/type/function of the straight pinebank cows?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:32 am

Might be wrong Mike but I think it would be early days to judge the function and type of the straight Pinebanks that Christoph has - would his oldest ones not just be about calved heifers now? It certainly would be interesting to see how they adapt to that very un-NZ environment over time.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:23 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Might be wrong Mike but I think it would be early days to judge the function and type of the straight Pinebanks that Christoph has - would his oldest ones not just be about calved heifers now? It certainly would be interesting to see how they adapt to that very un-NZ environment over time.
yes, two year old with calves...I thought of going up there sometime; maybe when Hilly can ride along...are you in that area?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:55 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Might be wrong Mike but I think it would be early days to judge the function and type of the straight Pinebanks that Christoph has - would his oldest ones not just be about calved heifers now? It certainly would be interesting to see how they adapt to that very un-NZ environment over time.
yes, two year old with calves...I thought of going up there sometime; maybe when Hilly can ride along...are you in that area?

I'm maybe 45 minutes from Hilly - Christoph is maybe another 7 hours north.
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:59 pm

The Peace River is a beautiful place and there was more to learn at Spiritview but I was pushed because of weather. My focus was the Epic Encore calves at Lookout Stock Farm. The cattle at Grassy Lanes were developed without grain and looked very good. Erika pointed out some of the 100% Pinebanks and some of the half bloods. I did not see a striking difference but she said they preferred the fullbloods and that they always were heavier than you would guess as compared to other cattle.
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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:19 am

OAK LANE FARM wrote:
The Peace River is a beautiful place and there was more to learn at Spiritview but I was pushed because of weather. My focus was the Epic Encore calves at Lookout Stock Farm. The cattle at Grassy Lanes were developed without grain and looked very good. Erika pointed out some of the 100% Pinebanks and some of the half bloods. I did not see a striking difference but she said they preferred the fullbloods and that they always were heavier than you would guess as compared to other cattle.
is this to imply they were developed without energy or protein? or does it suggest the grass/hay is as good as grain? or does everyone now have to tell a free lunch story to compete with Kit Pharo`s "you can rais`em on thin air" story?
Let me be very clear about my own cattle; I`ve found that their growth rate was commensurate with the level of protein and energy they recieve; whatever the source...if all these "grass raised" cattle are so damn efficient, why aren`t they built more like a hog instead of a pot bellied stove? why does a pot-bellied stove put out more heat than a straight sided barrell stove? I bet it`s because you can put more wood in it...
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:03 am

The grass developed yealing bulls at both places would be riduculed by most seedstock producers. For me they are hard to anylyze as there is little separation between bulls. Maybe that means that more bulls than we think are essentially the same (size/performance). These folks making good cattle without grain prove that the way many breeding cattle are developed (fattened) is senseless. I think if you provide the right kinds of forage you can do a lot without grain and yes overcondition cattle. I think those cattle if fat will loose condition essentially the same as grainfed cattle under stress. I don't buy into the idea that a little grain messes up the rumen . I guess that means I reject some of the things the all grass forage folks preach. I also think lesser fed therefore leaner cattle might offer some of the same advantages of grassfed beef.
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Steve



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:15 am

Mike:

My interpretation of Scott's statement was not that forage were as good as grain, nor that forage raised cattle did not need protein and energy. I think we can all agree that protein and energy, among other nutritents, are needed to grow cattle. The difference seems to me what is the source of the protein and energy...forages or grain? I believe with either source of nutrition, growth rate will be commensurate with nutritional density and intake.

I am not at all convinced "grass type" cattle are more efficient than non-grass type. I suspect some cattle work better on "grass types" because they can consume more, not that they are inheirently more efficient. We have observed in our own herd, cattle lacking capacity tend to come up open more often. Adding higher milk or higher growth EPD's on top of lacking capacity and they leave the herd even faster. It seems to me these observations are consistent with the generalization that grass and other forages are less nutrient dense than grains. Thus some animals are just not able to consume enough grasses or forages to meet the nutritional needs required to support higher milking or growth rates.

Along a similar line of thought...I know you do not believe in the term "fleshing ability" and I would agree there is overuse of the word. I do believe it has become a buzz word and everyone claims their cows have this ability, however, there is a some degree of merit to the term in my opinion. I would not define fleshing abilility as staying fat all year around, I would define cows that do this as poor performing cows. I would instead define it as able to gain weight back quicker once the weight is lost. Our cows are wintered on baled corn stalks and just enough DDG or hay to meet protein needs. In the Spring all our cattle look tough. The -40 degree mornings, ice storms, mud and howling winter winds take their toll in terms of weight loss, usually the cows loose 1.5-2.0 body condition scores between Fall and Spring. Again the cows with less capacity and higher milk or growth EPD's look the worst. Even the OCC cattle can look rough by Spring. However, get them out on grass for 30-60 days and the cattle with more capacity are hard to recognize. The cattle with less capacity do not flesh up until late Summer and Fall. Is this because the higer capacity cattle are more efficient..I doubt they are. I suggest instead they are able to intake larger amount of more nutrient dense grass and thus are able to gain weight back earlier.

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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:22 am

I don't believe that "a little grain messes up the rumen", rather it is inconsistency with grain feeding. The bugs that process grain are antagonistic to the bugs that process cellulose when the grain is taken out of the diet. Inconsistency of the diet stresses cattle until the rumen bug population changes to match the feed source. Grain becomes a problem when enough is fed to changes the pH of the rumen.

If fed the best forages, cattle can gain about as well as on grain based diet. If not the best forages, it just takes a little longer. Forage fed will probably always end up with less fat...without the carbs, I'd probably be less fat! Shocked

One thing I don't understand about this business...we still operate at the speed of when we had double digit interest rates. There is going to be a world of pain when they come back...and they will!!!
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:48 pm

MKeeney wrote:

Let me be very clear about my own cattle; I`ve found that their growth rate was commensurate with the level of protein and energy they recieve; whatever the source....

I believe that to be true and admit to promoting my cattle falsely in the past based on not understanding the above Embarassed "Forage raided" if done with alfalfa hay for protein and green-feed for energy may provide a far more nutritious diet than poorer grass hay and a few pounds of pellets. I know one outfit whose forage raised bulls can't survive on swath grazed cereals as adults while my forage plus a little pellets (max 3lbs/day) reared bulls thrive on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:43 pm

Steve wrote:
Mike:

My interpretation of Scott's statement was not that forage were as good as grain, nor that forage raised cattle did not need protein and energy. I think we can all agree that protein and energy, among other nutritents, are needed to grow cattle. The difference seems to me what is the source of the protein and energy...forages or grain? I believe with either source of nutrition, growth rate will be commensurate with nutritional density and intake.

I am not at all convinced "grass type" cattle are more efficient than non-grass type. I suspect some cattle work better on "grass types" because they can consume more, not that they are inheirently more efficient. We have observed in our own herd, cattle lacking capacity tend to come up open more often. Adding higher milk or higher growth EPD's on top of lacking capacity and they leave the herd even faster. It seems to me these observations are consistent with the generalization that grass and other forages are less nutrient dense than grains. Thus some animals are just not able to consume enough grasses or forages to meet the nutritional needs required to support higher milking or growth rates.

Along a similar line of thought...I know you do not believe in the term "fleshing ability" and I would agree there is overuse of the word. I do believe it has become a buzz word and everyone claims their cows have this ability, however, there is a some degree of merit to the term in my opinion. I would not define fleshing abilility as staying fat all year around, I would define cows that do this as poor performing cows. I would instead define it as able to gain weight back quicker once the weight is lost. Our cows are wintered on baled corn stalks and just enough DDG or hay to meet protein needs. In the Spring all our cattle look tough. The -40 degree mornings, ice storms, mud and howling winter winds take their toll in terms of weight loss, usually the cows loose 1.5-2.0 body condition scores between Fall and Spring. Again the cows with less capacity and higher milk or growth EPD's look the worst. Even the OCC cattle can look rough by Spring. However, get them out on grass for 30-60 days and the cattle with more capacity are hard to recognize. The cattle with less capacity do not flesh up until late Summer and Fall. Is this because the higer capacity cattle are more efficient..I doubt they are. I suggest instead they are able to intake larger amount of more nutrient dense grass and thus are able to gain weight back earlier.

what a nice "breeder" rather than "marketer" post; or should I say hearing the "truth" is so refreshing in this business. back to an old, old Leonhardtism, "we can breed most anything we choose, so long as we are willing to support it".
My cows have easy winters comparatively speaking; tougher summers than you I suspect Steve...as FlyingS has often said, management seems key...genetics secondary. Some of these cow differences we talk about seem so hard to measure or replicate; even to verbalize, that I just opt for trying to breed for fewer problems...fewer, not absence Smile
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:22 pm

Steve wrote:
Mike:

My interpretation of Scott's statement was not that forage were as good as grain, nor that forage raised cattle did not need protein and energy. I think we can all agree that protein and energy, among other nutritents, are needed to grow cattle. The difference seems to me what is the source of the protein and energy...forages or grain? I believe with either source of nutrition, growth rate will be commensurate with nutritional density and intake.

I am not at all convinced "grass type" cattle are more efficient than non-grass type. I suspect some cattle work better on "grass types" because they can consume more, not that they are inheirently more efficient. We have observed in our own herd, cattle lacking capacity tend to come up open more often. Adding higher milk or higher growth EPD's on top of lacking capacity and they leave the herd even faster. It seems to me these observations are consistent with the generalization that grass and other forages are less nutrient dense than grains. Thus some animals are just not able to consume enough grasses or forages to meet the nutritional needs required to support higher milking or growth rates.

Along a similar line of thought...I know you do not believe in the term "fleshing ability" and I would agree there is overuse of the word. I do believe it has become a buzz word and everyone claims their cows have this ability, however, there is a some degree of merit to the term in my opinion. I would not define fleshing abilility as staying fat all year around, I would define cows that do this as poor performing cows. I would instead define it as able to gain weight back quicker once the weight is lost. Our cows are wintered on baled corn stalks and just enough DDG or hay to meet protein needs. In the Spring all our cattle look tough. The -40 degree mornings, ice storms, mud and howling winter winds take their toll in terms of weight loss, usually the cows loose 1.5-2.0 body condition scores between Fall and Spring. Again the cows with less capacity and higher milk or growth EPD's look the worst. Even the OCC cattle can look rough by Spring. However, get them out on grass for 30-60 days and the cattle with more capacity are hard to recognize. The cattle with less capacity do not flesh up until late Summer and Fall. Is this because the higer capacity cattle are more efficient..I doubt they are. I suggest instead they are able to intake larger amount of more nutrient dense grass and thus are able to gain weight back earlier.

I guess if my statements need interpretation they must be lacking in clarity. Good post Steve. The non-grain feds at Grassy Lanes did have a common look and it was a lower-longer type of cow with a lot of middle. The better Grassy Lanes cattle decended from cattle that had that look 30 years ago in fact the grandsire of the calves was born in the early 70.s. If you have ever seen a picture of a Peace River hayfield they have grass about 4 feet tall and I think they raise some finer types of grass that are very good for developing calves.
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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:54 am

Steve wrote:
Mike:

My interpretation of Scott's statement was not that forage were as good as grain, nor that forage raised cattle did not need protein and energy. I think we can all agree that protein and energy, among other nutritents, are needed to grow cattle. The difference seems to me what is the source of the protein and energy...forages or grain? I believe with either source of nutrition, growth rate will be commensurate with nutritional density and intake.

I am not at all convinced "grass type" cattle are more efficient than non-grass type. I suspect some cattle work better on "grass types" because they can consume more, not that they are inheirently more efficient. We have observed in our own herd, cattle lacking capacity tend to come up open more often. Adding higher milk or higher growth EPD's on top of lacking capacity and they leave the herd even faster. It seems to me these observations are consistent with the generalization that grass and other forages are less nutrient dense than grains. Thus some animals are just not able to consume enough grasses or forages to meet the nutritional needs required to support higher milking or growth rates.

Along a similar line of thought...I know you do not believe in the term "fleshing ability" and I would agree there is overuse of the word. I do believe it has become a buzz word and everyone claims their cows have this ability, however, there is a some degree of merit to the term in my opinion. I would not define fleshing abilility as staying fat all year around, I would define cows that do this as poor performing cows. I would instead define it as able to gain weight back quicker once the weight is lost. Our cows are wintered on baled corn stalks and just enough DDG or hay to meet protein needs. In the Spring all our cattle look tough. The -40 degree mornings, ice storms, mud and howling winter winds take their toll in terms of weight loss, usually the cows loose 1.5-2.0 body condition scores between Fall and Spring. Again the cows with less capacity and higher milk or growth EPD's look the worst. Even the OCC cattle can look rough by Spring. However, get them out on grass for 30-60 days and the cattle with more capacity are hard to recognize. The cattle with less capacity do not flesh up until late Summer and Fall. Is this because the higer capacity cattle are more efficient..I doubt they are. I suggest instead they are able to intake larger amount of more nutrient dense grass and thus are able to gain weight back earlier.


From a cattle producer standpoint I am not sure I totally agree. We have some cows that will stay in the same shape year round while producing a good calf. In fact some will grow old with this repeatability as many cows in our herd will suffer some condition loss through the winter while some will stay fat. Looking for that balance to be hard on them and yet have them try and do what we would like them to do is another thing. But imho quite simple, if they're open then they are shipped. As long as they tend to their calf in a reasonable manner no shorting the calf of it's basic needs that's all I can ask of them.
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colin



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:44 pm

hi with regard to dunlouise native scottish angus , noticed one message said they were fat as hell yeah on good ground in that part of scotland , but i have similar cows not totally native totally outwinterd with mimium feed in wet steep and poorer grazing , simply outstanding these types wean calves easily better than larger canadian type which i also have the large ones need constant haylage , the more native scottish hold on to flesh amazingly well extremly fertile, as i come from scotland im fimilar with the breeding its limited unfortuneatly but well worth trying in fact the cherry bee cowline which dunlouise have several ai bulls with genex is a fantastic line, in scotland size is the thing just now mainly canadian bloodlines cows 800kgs and upwards in the good herds, natives wont make 700kgs mature bulls max about 1050kg ish well worth the effort colin thistlebrook angus uk
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:15 pm

colin wrote:
hi with regard to dunlouise native scottish angus , noticed one message said they were fat as hell yeah on good ground in that part of scotland , but i have similar cows not totally native totally outwinterd with mimium feed in wet steep and poorer grazing , simply outstanding these types wean calves easily better than larger canadian type which i also have the large ones need constant haylage , the more native scottish hold on to flesh amazingly well extremly fertile, as i come from scotland im fimilar with the breeding its limited unfortuneatly but well worth trying in fact the cherry bee cowline which dunlouise have several ai bulls with genex is a fantastic line, in scotland size is the thing just now mainly canadian bloodlines cows 800kgs and upwards in the good herds, natives wont make 700kgs mature bulls max about 1050kg ish well worth the effort colin thistlebrook angus uk

Welcome to the corner Colin; I don`t care much for the look of the cattle, but if they work and please you, that is all that matters to you...there`s a place for about every "type" of cattle, so long as it is used in it`s proper place...
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:20 am

This is very interesting to me. We have seen old crop corn at almost 8 dollars on its way to 10 or above. We have been developing cattle for 3 years or so on grass to get ready for now. One thing that has become apparant to me is that there is a type weither it be linebred or crossbred that appears to make this task easier, the other observation is you need to keep those cattle gaining with all seasons or expect a latter finishing animal. We are fairly fortunate we can keep cattle on the gain from feb 15 to dec 10 on native range in feb, irrigated pasture in may and grain feilds in oct. by doing this we find that a moderate framed, deep enough, sprung ribbed enough, thick over the top calf will be fairly finnished in the fall as a 21 month old animal. You need to pay attention to all phase's of management , it is tough to make up much, it could take you the next growing season. just some observations
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:35 pm

BobH, what carcass weights are you getting at 21 months, if you don't mind me asking.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:34 pm

Dylan they are between 550 to 750 . The yeild is normaly between 56 an 57 % . If they are shorty cattle we drop below this but they do not make any money for the ranch or retailer.
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle   Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:48 pm

Bob H wrote:
Dylan they are between 550 to 750 . The yeild is normaly between 56 an 57 % . If they are shorty cattle we drop below this but they do not make any money for the ranch or retailer.

Thanks Bob H, it has also been our experience that small carcasses have little to no profit potential.
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