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 How broad is your breed?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: How broad is your breed?    Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:34 pm

How broad is your breed?

Breed defined as the cattle or genes you mate to provide breeding stock for your self or others...

1. Is your breed broader than even the cattle species itself, Beefalo comes to mind as an example...

2. Is your breed merely as broad as the cattle species...the Clay center retained heterosis concepts and four breed composites come to mind...a 4 breed composite crossed on a different set of 4 breed would sure catch a lot of breeds...

3. A two breed composite?

4. Would your breed be only as broad as a color of cattle? For instance, all the black or red cattle?

5. Would your breed be as broad as a color of cattle that had ancestry recorded? Registered Angus, a familiar example

6. Would your breed be restricted to certain types, though of different lineage?

7. Would your breed be a closed population...example Line One Hereford

8. Would your breed be as small as a “line” within a closed herd?

9. Could your breed be as small as a full sister/brother or parent/ offspring matings?

How broad must your breed be to sustain your objectives?
Do you believe predictability is enhanced as your breed is narrowed?
Are fire and ice matings within a breed an improvement over composite breeds?
Is versatility restricted as predictability is enhanced?
How broad must your breed be merely to sustain itself?
Add breeds, corrections, or discussion as you see fit...just some thoughts; as I proceed with catious enthusiasm to make new narrow breeds, and see if they are sustainable...
just some thoughts that have been running through my head since I heard "how deep is your love" on the tractor radio...thought I best not ask that question here , or especially at 4.9 Smile
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:22 pm

I failed to say, I think you could make some improvement in cattle in any of the breeds above...where you be the fastest? longest lasting...is long lasting same as prepotent?
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:45 pm

Some days I like to think I've got my own little Green's, Yellow's, and Red's going on. It makes me feel better when I look at it that way. I see why the Zen Master nipped it in the bud. I think mine are just going to be black, cause that is what you get when you mix all the colors together. I've got a good start.

Lots of Sam babies around Mike, and I would say it excites me, but I won't for my sake, or yours, but I do like 'em. A few Sniffy's but not near as many for whatever reason, so I do not have a good comparison as yet. For fear of being burnt at the stake, I like what I see so far. I think it is okay to like your cows or calves isn't it?


Bootheel, not ever going to accomplish much, and just excited as I can be about it

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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:03 pm

Sam is an impressive bull that gives good calves. We will see if I did right hauling Blythie and not Sam north last Fall.
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:48 am

Mark Day wrote:
Sam is an impressive bull that gives good calves. We will see if I did right hauling Blythie and not Sam north last Fall.
different bulls for different purposes and both temporary illusions waiting for reality to surface...
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:08 am

Bootheel wrote:
Some days I like to think I've got my own little Green's, Yellow's, and Red's going on. It makes me feel better when I look at it that way. I see why the Zen Master nipped it in the bud. I think mine are just going to be black, cause that is what you get when you mix all the colors together. I've got a good start.

Lots of Sam babies around Mike, and I would say it excites me, but I won't for my sake, or yours, but I do like 'em. A few Sniffy's but not near as many for whatever reason, so I do not have a good comparison as yet. For fear of being burnt at the stake, I like what I see so far. I think it is okay to like your cows or calves isn't it?


Bootheel, not ever going to accomplish much, and just excited as I can be about it

I think it is okay to like your cows or calves isn't it?
so long as you like them for what they are Smile

twas thinking the other day,
what and how a cattleman breeds is his private business, but when he sells it publicly,
it becomes everyone`s business

another oldie played yesterday Smile
As I walk this land of broken dreams
I have visions of many things
But breeder happiness is just an illusion
Filled with sadness and confusion

What becomes of the broken hearted
Who had looks that's now departed
I know I've got to find
Some kind of peace of mind

pretty pictures
Grow all around
But for most they come a-tumbling down
Every day heart aches grow a little stronger
they can't stand this pain much longer {seven years}

I walk in shadows searching for light
Cold and alone no comfort in sight
Hopin' and prayin' for someone to care
Always movin' and going nowhere


I'm searching though I don't succeed
breed stability, there's a growing need
If all is looks, there's no place for beginning
All that's left is an unhappy ending

I'll be searching everywhere
Just to find a someone to care
I'l be looking every day
I know I'm gonna find a way
Nothing's gonna stop me now
I'll find a way somehow Smile

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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:06 am

[quote]different bulls for different purposes and both temporary illusions waiting for reality to surface...
Quote :

So what are the illusions and what will be reality?
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:51 am

Quote :
2. Is your breed merely as broad as the cattle species...the Clay center retained heterosis concepts and four breed composites come to mind...a 4 breed composite crossed on a different set of 4 breed would sure catch a lot of breeds...

Could you please explain to me what a "retained heterosis concept" is. Your post reminded me of sometime back about the mid 1980's...... I recall reading about some Canadians called the Barrister Group who were breeding different types of cattle using several several different breeds within each type ..... perhaps Hilly, Grassfarmer or Dylan would know if they are still in business. From a 4 breed composite, then what, how do they make their selections for the subsequent generations to sustain/retain heterosis ? I also was reminded of your communications with LCC and his "what if" comments.....you might want to share this exchange getting into the nitty gritty details to broaden this discussion : )

LL in serious need of some enlightenment
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:47 am

[quote="Mark Day"]
Quote :
different bulls for different purposes and both temporary illusions waiting for reality to surface...
Quote :

So what are the illusions and what will be reality?
well, Sam is an outcross; about as broad in pedigree as you can get in the "registered breed"; not nearly as broad in type...to find out what`s really inside deeper than the illusion of the outside, someone has to probe in there...
Blythie has the potential for some crap beneath the surface from the Jauer bull {Rito 2100} in his pedigree...with all these heifers coming, maybe you`ll be the one to probe deeper...or maybe just stick them in your wallet Smile
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flyingS



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:00 am

I think you have to begin with an end in mind. What do you want to produce in your end product. Do you want to sell genetics or weight? An example I can think of is an extremely large ranch in the Sandhills that has a completely closed herd of the 4 breed composite genetics. They began with the intent to produce a female that fits the environment and is highly reproductive. They have done well with that goal as well as done an excellent job of producing steer mates that are very effective at converting feed. As with anything there are draw backs to selecting for specific traits, their cattle have trouble grading. So they have highly productive, low cost females, steers that blow the doors off the competition for feed conversion, but they can not produce a carcass that grades as well as they would like. It takes all kinds but in the end what the customer wants and what it cost you to produce that product is what really matters.
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:49 pm

flyingS wrote:
I think you have to begin with an end in mind. What do you want to produce in your end product. Do you want to sell genetics or weight? An example I can think of is an extremely large ranch in the Sandhills that has a completely closed herd of the 4 breed composite genetics. They began with the intent to produce a female that fits the environment and is highly reproductive. They have done well with that goal as well as done an excellent job of producing steer mates that are very effective at converting feed. As with anything there are draw backs to selecting for specific traits, their cattle have trouble grading. So they have highly productive, low cost females, steers that blow the doors off the competition for feed conversion, but they can not produce a carcass that grades as well as they would like. It takes all kinds but in the end what the customer wants and what it cost you to produce that product is what really matters.
would not a closed herd defeat the concept of "retained heterosis" ...every generation begins to act more like a breed, and less like a designed composite?
in the clay center concept, each of the 4 breed composite should be unrelated in the matings...and no selection can take place in the composite result, because this might begin to favor a "breed" at the expense of heterosis? ??? means I`m asking, not sayin ' Smile
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:42 pm

Quote :
Blythie has the potential for some crap beneath the surface from the Jauer bull {Rito 2100} in his pedigree...with all these heifers coming, maybe you`ll be the one to probe deeper...or maybe just stick them in your wallet

If your telling me that some teat issues could materialize from the Blythie offspring that might make me think twice about which ones to keep but he did not head north with me having the intention of all of his daughters heading back south. I might be more concerned about their offspring when they get bred to bulls also carrying Messenger genes and getting that double dose of easy fleshing.
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:52 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
Blythie has the potential for some crap beneath the surface from the Jauer bull {Rito 2100} in his pedigree...with all these heifers coming, maybe you`ll be the one to probe deeper...or maybe just stick them in your wallet

If your telling me that some teat issues could materialize from the Blythie offspring that might make me think twice about which ones to keep but he did not head north with me having the intention of all of his daughters heading back south. I might be more concerned about their offspring when they get bred to bulls also carrying Messenger genes and getting that double dose of easy fleshing.
no, no; telling you nothing..just saying keep some, bred to a son, and then you can tell me what is instead of what we see Smile
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:16 pm

Quote :
would not a closed herd defeat the concept of "retained heterosis" ...every generation begins to act more like a breed, and less like a designed composite?
in the clay center concept, each of the 4 breed composite should be unrelated in the matings...and no selection can take place in the composite result, because this might begin to favor a "breed" at the expense of heterosis? ??? means I`m asking, not sayin

So everytime they come back around with a bull of a particular breed he is not related to the bull of the same breed that was used to make the previous cross or do they let all 4 way cattle go as terminals? If you did retain heterosis on a closed farm you would have your selection of breeds or lines on the farm when you close it. Even the tight bred multiple lines of a single breed will slowly increase IBCs unless you have a place the size of King Ranch.
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:28 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
would not a closed herd defeat the concept of "retained heterosis" ...every generation begins to act more like a breed, and less like a designed composite?
in the clay center concept, each of the 4 breed composite should be unrelated in the matings...and no selection can take place in the composite result, because this might begin to favor a "breed" at the expense of heterosis? ??? means I`m asking, not sayin

So everytime they come back around with a bull of a particular breed he is not related to the bull of the same breed that was used to make the previous cross or do they let all 4 way cattle go as terminals? If you did retain heterosis on a closed farm you would have your selection of breeds or lines on the farm when you close it. Even the tight bred multiple lines of a single breed will slowly increase IBCs unless you have a place the size of King Ranch.
yelp, I believe it would take more co-operation than Tru-line ever dared...I suppose selection would be practiced in what Angus was chosen to fill the Angus component for example in a Limmy x hereford x Char x Angus...twas promoted as a simple way to crossbreed Smile
is PREPOTENCY a foreign concept to population genetics? I believe it is...
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flyingS



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:39 pm

Mr. Keeney, I don't know if I can answer your question very intelligently, genetics are not my strong point. The particular ranch I am refering to has it's own seedstock herd that specifically produces bulls. The replacement females may also come from this herd as well as other herds on the ranch. The cow herd on this ranch probably consist of between 13,000 and 14,000 bred females. The only genes introduced into the herd is through an AI program in the seedstock herd. Basically the main three cull criteria are birth weight, disposition and fertility. There is a lot fetility pressure put on heifers with a 25 day breed period. Pressure is put on the mature females through management practices, they believe in managing the herd for the best females not the worst, if she can not breed back in the environment she is in she is sold. In the end they have a highly fertile cow herd that produces highly fertile offspring. Through DNA testing they were able to tell how many calves each bull sired, one specific yrling bull sired 68 calves. What would it be worth if you could select for that kind of libido?
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:40 am

those would be the kind of cow numbers an in-house composite program would require I believe...as to fertility, herterosis should provide it, but you could select for it in "parent" breeds...
68 calves sired by one yearling bull ...a carrot? the outlier that tells us they could all be that way?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:15 pm

Quote :
They began with the intent to produce a female that fits the environment and is highly reproductive. They have done well with that goal as well as done an excellent job of producing steer mates that are very effective at converting feed. As with anything there are draw backs to selecting for specific traits, their cattle have trouble grading. So they have highly productive, low cost females, steers that blow the doors off the competition for feed conversion, but they can not produce a carcass that grades as well as they would like.
This quote by flyingS got me to thinking...
Prime carcasses make up only about 3% or less of the carcasses harvested. Is the animal that produces a Prime carcass an outlier?
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:27 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Quote :
They began with the intent to produce a female that fits the environment and is highly reproductive. They have done well with that goal as well as done an excellent job of producing steer mates that are very effective at converting feed. As with anything there are draw backs to selecting for specific traits, their cattle have trouble grading. So they have highly productive, low cost females, steers that blow the doors off the competition for feed conversion, but they can not produce a carcass that grades as well as they would like.
This quote by flyingS got me to thinking...
Prime carcasses make up only about 3% or less of the carcasses harvested. Is the animal that produces a Prime carcass an outlier?
in selection in the wild, it probably is...in breeding herds, it doesn`t have to be, if marbling is your trait direction...
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flyingS



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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:36 pm

Is it an outlier or just not economically feasable? My father has a good set of cows and has spent a lot of time and money to get where he is. To make a long story short; he recieved carcas data back on some fall calves he had sold. I don't remember the exact data but it was exceptional. He made the comment that there was something like a 120/hd premium for the calves. I mentioned that I thought that was great, then asked how much of that did he see. My point is he didn't get paid any more for his calves than he would of if they had not graded any better low choice or high select. Of course the same buyer comes back, but he doesn't pay any more for the calves. Pride in his product was enough to satisfy my Dad, how much cost of production could have been saved through management that would have actually put cash in his pocket. Money talks and BS walks. WHo cares if you can tell everyone how great your calves performed if you do not get paid for it. It's like bragging about heavy calves or high prices and having a cost of production that out weighs your return. Ask yourself how much money you are leaving on the table and where you are leaving it. I believe any breed can be productive and profitable whether purebred or crossbred. I also believe that most are not because of lack of management and realism. Our industry is a keep up with the Jones kind of business, we are always comparing ourselves with someone else instead of taking care of our own business and concentrating on what it takes to be successful.
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:25 pm

As I was pondering the two Sniffy sons to use, I noticed how trivial my dilemna is

If all turns out the way I think it will, I am going to use 928 and Thunder again this year. As I look at epds, tenderness, carcass merit, and ask about mothering, 928 just seems to stay high up on the list. And when I see Thunder's hip, I would really like that in my herd--other things I like about him too. I might use Connection because I've been wanting to try him, and he might be a great one to breed into my herd.

I've considered and reconsidered and considered again trying Ambush 28 with my less growthy cows. I just haven't bitten yet. It appears to me that he holds fairly tight to a 3# BW, and I don't know that I want that. And his rear quarter isn't what I want either. But others have had some pretty decent animals out of him, and I like what I've seen, and apparently he isn't strong on reproducing his rear quarter.

I really like every picture I've seen of calves out of Cole Creek Cedar Ridge 1V (maybe 6 or Cool, and I might eventually try him, but probably not for this year. I have also considered Connealy Consensus, but I'd sure like a little more Doc on him for me (and I'm not confident of his HP), and so maybe Connealy Reflection is a better choice and could be another on I consider down the road.


that`s the really nice things about AI...YOU CAN USE THEM ALL, and GET ALL THEIR PROBLEMS...
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:52 pm

4


Last edited by Kent Powell on Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:29 pm

MKeeney wrote:
As I was pondering the two Sniffy sons to use, I noticed how trivial my dilemna is

If all turns out the way I think it will, I am going to use 928 and Thunder again this year. As I look at epds, tenderness, carcass merit, and ask about mothering, 928 just seems to stay high up on the list. And when I see Thunder's hip, I would really like that in my herd--other things I like about him too. I might use Connection because I've been wanting to try him, and he might be a great one to breed into my herd.

I've considered and reconsidered and considered again trying Ambush 28 with my less growthy cows. I just haven't bitten yet. It appears to me that he holds fairly tight to a 3# BW, and I don't know that I want that. And his rear quarter isn't what I want either. But others have had some pretty decent animals out of him, and I like what I've seen, and apparently he isn't strong on reproducing his rear quarter.

I really like every picture I've seen of calves out of Cole Creek Cedar Ridge 1V (maybe 6 or Cool, and I might eventually try him, but probably not for this year. I have also considered Connealy Consensus, but I'd sure like a little more Doc on him for me (and I'm not confident of his HP), and so maybe Connealy Reflection is a better choice and could be another on I consider down the road.


that`s the really nice things about AI...YOU CAN USE THEM ALL, and GET ALL THEIR PROBLEMS...

i cant keep up with that shit how do you breed 6 cows to 12 bulls in the same year and 18 bulls the next is that modern math or what scratch scratch
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:01 am

Keystone wrote:
A base of four head:




They stem from three cows


Heather 9117 11250039

S B Miss Burgess 8119 11135869

Princess of Ada 338 11886882


And One Sire

Stoneybroke Son G699 12837202


http://www.angusjournal.com/articlepdf/06-0785_emulousline.pdf

exciting stuff Kent...but I guess one man`s excitement can be another man`s limitation...especially in the breeding game of hop, skip, and jump ; never knowing where to land...
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PostSubject: Re: How broad is your breed?    Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:17 am

Kent and the few other breeders narrowing the road, here`s an excerpt from a book about Bonsmara I was sent cautioning me about the narrow road...

"In 1970 an investigation by the ADSRI into the breeding structure of seven known nucleus herds revealed a perturbing extent of close line breeding to the bull, Edelheer - also in the state herd. (a bull Bonsma called one of the best he had ever seen of any breed) After thorough deliberation, the ADSRI as the responsible institution, was confronted with two options either to inform the Society and/or the herd owners concerned alone, or to take remedial steps and establish alternatives. This led to the development of unrelated lines and making them available in order to extend the narrowed genetic base and ensure continued sustainability. In spite of differences of opinion at the time, the Institute ensured that breeders were made aware of what was taking place in the strategic nucleus herds."

While we narrow the road, it`s vitally important, in fact paramount to the concept, that we are not taking the same cattle, or even cattle for the same purpose, down that narrowing road...

back to "if one can do it, they all can" ...that`s true, if what the one does, isn`t too many things...if the one is going to do all things best, then there needs be only one breed...that super breed, that balance that the marketers talk about...

the balance that makes them unique from as good a family of people as you can find sort of BS...

those of us making ingredients are not creating balance until we mix the ingredients and bake the cookies...Dammit Hilly, someone has to make some Walnuts Exclamation Smile
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