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 The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:50 am

I gotta do a better job selling bulls; not to get more money, but to sell more bulls to more places...so a goal is to have a photograph of the dam of any bull selling...Larry is always chiding me for all the time I have to take pictures; so I took these in 30 minutes are less...he never gives me or my cows credit for being good managers Smile

just a cow

the seeded Simmy`s are coming

11 years old and just a cow

9 years old; a good producer; and a tolerable udder

9 year old member of the power unit; keeping a son

the intention is to see the udder on every cow as on this 3 yr old; the face in the mirror can be edited;
the udders can`t Smile

alone on a hill; Blythemaker`s mother keeping perfectly still...keeping a son; a keeper son at side

I caught several cows talking like this 427 daughter

she`s a sweetheart and so is her Simmy baby

there ain`t no hills high enough to keep her from raising a good calf

her son left Saturday; the problem with freeze brands is you can never forget who they are
and they can never blend into a no pedigree, no paper, one color herd

heading to Kendra`s along with her daughter to be mated to her son...

there`ll be a choice other than puds in the neighborhood of the Eastern most PCC co-operator...
thx Charles

another gossipy cow; her sire was so puddy, Pharo would have been proud...keeping
4 sons from daughters that weigh 1300 and have extension...how could that be from
a little inbred bull?

a paternal sister to Unwanted

argue all you want cow, I still say your teats are too long

another daughter of the pud...near perfection in my eyes

a 1300 lb daughter of the inbred pud; a pud relief simmy at side

A SHOSHONE; with a keeney/shoshone concoction at side...her son is at home in PA

Retaining a yearling son for the power unit; the power unit consists of three 3/4 brothers

A Felix/427...calf at side will be one of 6 members of the finese team...

a friend described her as the worst cow in this 40...I sure hope so Smile another 40 fall cows to picture the nucleus of;
50 miles away;will be a few days...

for Larry and BobH to critisize/discuss; a fruit with interim seeds, kinda like interim epds Smile
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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:10 pm

Okay. My question is: Why are the simmyX bull calves acceptable/keepable/useable but a heifer calf in another picture (Backroad Breeders) is a Gelbvieh cross, compliments of the neighbors bull, was shown as being the kind everyone wants but few need. Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to figure out the difference.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:28 pm

chocolate cow wrote:
Okay. My question is: Why are the simmyX bull calves acceptable/keepable/useable but a heifer calf in another picture (Backroad Breeders) is a Gelbvieh cross, compliments of the neighbors bull, was shown as being the kind everyone wants but few need. Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to figure out the difference.
you`re not being a jerk; just starting another thread of discussion by nibbling at the bait Smile more later; I gotta a few chores this afternoon Smile
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:19 pm

I think I would take that Keeney/Gelbvieh heifer for a commercial cow over any heifer that is all mainstream AI genetics.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:55 pm

Mark Day wrote:
I think I would take that Keeney/Gelbvieh heifer for a commercial cow over any heifer that is all mainstream AI genetics.
maybe; but still better to eat her...and from what I see of my few Simmy crosses, eat them too...
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:46 pm

You want to eat them and from what I remember your simmy bull not extreme in shape and size but maybe he is breeding a bit bigger than I remember him being. Mike, have you been following any of these heifer sales in Kentucky past month or so? A lot are averaging in the $1400 range from what I hear with all the talk about AI genetics.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:07 pm

Mike it appears to me that you just need to educate those folks in Kentucky about fruit and seedless fruit for commercial cattle production and keep producing fruit for them to use in their crossing systems. About trying to get the perfect udder it is more important for her to raise a coupon every year for say 15 or 20 years on her own than have 4 perfect teats, good enough is good enough. Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:47 am

Mark Day wrote:
You want to eat them and from what I remember your simmy bull not extreme in shape and size but maybe he is breeding a bit bigger than I remember him being. Mike, have you been following any of these heifer sales in Kentucky past month or so? A lot are averaging in the $1400 range from what I hear with all the talk about AI genetics.
registered was once the accreditation of goodness...it has been replaced by AI BRED...masterful promotion job by the studs, universities, and the breed associations...putting breeders at a disadvantage in the marketplace to multipliers...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:50 am

Bob H wrote:
Mike it appears to me that you just need to educate those folks in Kentucky about fruit and seedless fruit for commercial cattle production and keep producing fruit for them to use in their crossing systems. About trying to get the perfect udder it is more important for her to raise a coupon every year for say 15 or 20 years on her own than have 4 perfect teats, good enough is good enough. Bob H
actually Bob, my udder comment was intended to mean "be sure each photograph showed the udder"...I saw that what I said was misleading, too lazy to change...I agree with you on the udders...will get to the crossbred bull explanation when I have the heart for it Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:22 am

got by to see my bred heifers yesterday and was very pleased...and the reason they are fat? it is because, by God, they`ve had something good to eat this summer, and OT, THAT`S THE WAY IT IS EVERYWHERE that cattle produce anything...a rather dark and deary day for photography, but the video was decent...

http://vimeo.com/31883992

even the nastiest old weed can bloom pretty once in it`s life...




don`t count on any of these heifers weaning 60% of their body weight; in fact, rest assured they won`t
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Oldtimer

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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:13 pm

Mike I wish a guy could see that kind of green around here...We still have a lot of old brown grass- sticking up thru the snow- so cows are doing alright grazing...

I wish I would have taken the camera with me yesterday when we were bringing cows out of The Pass...Snow drifts are deep enough you have to be careful when going thru a coulee or you could get stuck...A couple of the 4 wheeler ATV's got almost buried in a drift...Saddlehorses and cows didn't like going thru the creek because it was iced over... Made a long day...

Luckily at my place there are still a couple of springs flowing enough the cows can stick their nose down thru the slush and still slurp up some good water... If it stays cold they may be eating snow for awhile...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:36 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
Mike I wish a guy could see that kind of green around here...We still have a lot of old brown grass- sticking up thru the snow- so cows are doing alright grazing...

I wish I would have taken the camera with me yesterday when we were bringing cows out of The Pass...Snow drifts are deep enough you have to be careful when going thru a coulee or you could get stuck...A couple of the 4 wheeler ATV's got almost buried in a drift...Saddlehorses and cows didn't like going thru the creek because it was iced over... Made a long day...

Luckily at my place there are still a couple of springs flowing enough the cows can stick their nose down thru the slush and still slurp up some good water... If it stays cold they may be eating snow for awhile...
wonder why it is when we bring those "tough, snow eating " cattle here to our country full of green grass , so many get skinny and lose all that great "fleshing ability"?
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:29 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
Mike I wish a guy could see that kind of green around here...We still have a lot of old brown grass- sticking up thru the snow- so cows are doing alright grazing...

I wish I would have taken the camera with me yesterday when we were bringing cows out of The Pass...Snow drifts are deep enough you have to be careful when going thru a coulee or you could get stuck...A couple of the 4 wheeler ATV's got almost buried in a drift...Saddlehorses and cows didn't like going thru the creek because it was iced over... Made a long day...

Luckily at my place there are still a couple of springs flowing enough the cows can stick their nose down thru the slush and still slurp up some good water... If it stays cold they may be eating snow for awhile...
wonder why it is when we bring those "tough, snow eating " cattle here to our country full of green grass , so many get skinny and lose all that great "fleshing ability"?

I don't think there is any question on why that is...Folks that have run cattle all over the world say that our shortgrass country up here on the northern prairies has the most OOOMPH in it of all grass.- comparable to the African Veld.. Even when this grass gets all dried out cattle will still gain on it if they can get to it... The reason I believe calves with good genetics for converting grass do better than maybe other parts of the world.... And the reason so many folks up here run thousands of yearlings....

This year we had more rain then ever (over 22"- new record) in an area that averages 11.5"-- and while we had lots of grass- and green grass later than normal-- everyones calves came in averaging lighter weaning weights....They are attributing that to the fact the grass this year didn't cure out as fast- and was more washy so didn't have the normal OOOMPH/protein it usually does...
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:38 pm

Mike,

For review could you post the list you trust the most of the Top 10 things that determine profit for the commercial cattleman?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:49 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
.......They are attributing that to the fact the grass this year didn't cure out as fast- and was more washy so didn't have the normal OOOMPH/protein it usually does...

I think you are mixing your OOMMPH with your AAAHHH. If your grass was washy and greener later than usual it wouldn't be short of protein - more likely the opposite.
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Oldtimer

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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:14 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
.......They are attributing that to the fact the grass this year didn't cure out as fast- and was more washy so didn't have the normal OOOMPH/protein it usually does...

I think you are mixing your OOMMPH with your AAAHHH. If your grass was washy and greener later than usual it wouldn't be short of protein - more likely the opposite.

So then why do you think that in a year with double to triple the amount of grass of an average year-- and an overabundance of water (where cows didn't have to walk any distances to find good water) that everyone in the areas calves are weaning off lighter?
I'm open to ideas--but all the fellas that have ran cattle around here for years say it was the lack of food value in the washier grass....My only other thought is that the cows stayed more in the areas that stayed green and lush- instead of grazing the buffalo and some other native shortgrass's that normally give them that added kick....

I've seen cows almost starve to death on green grass- and the reason I sometimes set out bales of hay in the spring for a couple of weeks when the new green grass is mostly all water and washy and there isn't a lot of old grass..
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:43 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
.......They are attributing that to the fact the grass this year didn't cure out as fast- and was more washy so didn't have the normal OOOMPH/protein it usually does...

I think you are mixing your OOMMPH with your AAAHHH. If your grass was washy and greener later than usual it wouldn't be short of protein - more likely the opposite.

So then why do you think that in a year with double to triple the amount of grass of an average year-- and an overabundance of water (where cows didn't have to walk any distances to find good water) that everyone in the areas calves are weaning off lighter?
I'm open to ideas--but all the fellas that have ran cattle around here for years say it was the lack of food value in the washier grass....My only other thought is that the cows stayed more in the areas that stayed green and lush- instead of grazing the buffalo and some other native shortgrass's that normally give them that added kick....

I've seen cows almost starve to death on green grass- and the reason I sometimes set out bales of hay in the spring for a couple of weeks when the new green grass is mostly all water and washy and there isn't a lot of old grass..

So if the grass greened up later do ya think maybe they didn't eat as much over time as they would in a normal year, was it cooler or hotter causing them to use more energy, or eat less you stated in a post about it being 90degrees on the 1st of Oct, sounds like lots of things were different than normal so why would you expect things to be normal? When you get snowed in this weekend just look at all the time you will have to figure all this out.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:31 pm

I think the OOMPH you are referring to comes from the energy content not the protein. Typical of a colder wetter year, less sun translates into lower energy, higher protein grass. We face this problem quite often in this area.
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:11 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
.......They are attributing that to the fact the grass this year didn't cure out as fast- and was more washy so didn't have the normal OOOMPH/protein it usually does...

I think you are mixing your OOMMPH with your AAAHHH. If your grass was washy and greener later than usual it wouldn't be short of protein - more likely the opposite.

So then why do you think that in a year with double to triple the amount of grass of an average year-- and an overabundance of water (where cows didn't have to walk any distances to find good water) that everyone in the areas calves are weaning off lighter?
I'm open to ideas--but all the fellas that have ran cattle around here for years say it was the lack of food value in the washier grass....My only other thought is that the cows stayed more in the areas that stayed green and lush- instead of grazing the buffalo and some other native shortgrass's that normally give them that added kick....

I've seen cows almost starve to death on green grass- and the reason I sometimes set out bales of hay in the spring for a couple of weeks when the new green grass is mostly all water and washy and there isn't a lot of old grass..

As Grassfarmer is saying, the higher protein actually detracts from the energy available as the cattle's microbes have to cleave off the N 's from the amino acids to use it as an energy source which is inefficient. In layman's terms anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:16 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
I think the OOMPH you are referring to comes from the energy content not the protein. Typical of a colder wetter year, less sun translates into lower energy, higher protein grass. We face this problem quite often in this area.

Yeah- that could be... Anyway the high moisture year abundance of grass didn't put on the weight as well ...

I've never measured the energy/protein or anything of grass (forgot about everything I learned in the grass /feed courses in College 45 years ago)-- but with the weather- its just the opposite for putting protein into the wheat... The years we have heat/sun/dry at the right time is the years we seem to get the high protein wheat... Often less bushels per acre- and smaller kernals- but 17-18+ protein wheat...Then some of the irrigated wheat fields we pour the water to will have 70-80 bushel crops- but very low protein you have trouble even selling....
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Bull Sale   Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:44 pm

Good job Wilford, you stumbled around in the dark long enough to find a light switch. Now let's see if we can find the next light switch, and pretty soon we'll have pure, sweet illumination up in here. Do you see other examples in nature of this trade-off between yield and quality?

TD, craving illumination.
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