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 The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls

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EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:52 am

Quote :
I would feel very safe saying that the IBC's of most parent lines of corn is higher than the average of a trailer load of the most inbred bulls you can find. Corn can self-fertilize. Cattle cannot.

So, with this data in hand, can you really compare cattle to corn. I don't see a good fit. Which species is most like cattle for a fair comparison of lines, types, inbreeding and linebreeding? We could use persimmons as the trees are either male or female. Let Mike invite folks in for a green persimmon taste test! What a Face

Are species with multiple birth like hogs and sheep an easier way to test the hopes of a breeder or do you end up with too many offspring to properly feed, manage and evaluate?
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:17 am

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
if you don`t like to read; go to the summary..page 11
http://www.asas.org/symposia/9899proc/0927.pdf
Only read the summary, but looks like a plan to turn cattlemen into shepherds of an industry designed composite.
wow..big statement standing right beside a red bull avatar that was once a three breed composite....whatever composite I might someday make, I sure want it industry useful and profitable...if that makes me their shepherd, so it be it...I can change cattle, but I can`t change an industry.
As soon as a company is able to fix/alter/modify genes to create, at least the illusion, of consistent tenderness in the final product, the 5 or so large packers that process about 90% of fed cattle will demand that the cattle they buy have 'the gene' or producers will face large discounts...think Roundup ready soybeans. The only place to get 'the gene' will be 'the company' because of patent laws. YOU won't be allowed to make a composite. Where are the independent breeders in the pork and poultry industries? Where are the free markets?

Do you really believe that Black Angus is the dominant breed of the USA cattle herd because they are so much better than any other breed? Wouldn't that make this discussion meaningless? Packers paying more for a black hide is responsible...this is their attempt to move producers toward a "cookie cutter" animal coming off the ranch. Consistency is the deal...doesn't have to be of high quality IF there is nothing to compare. Are pork and poultry higher quality products today than 50 years ago? Definitely more consistent.

This may be a discussion for someplace else...sorry.
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:04 pm

Quote :
think Roundup ready soybeans

Think resistant weeds. Just because something new like a tenderness gene comes along does not mean that it will not have negative issues that are yet unknown.

A lot of money has added value to black hides as the quality of the product has slipped. So we have "improved" the bag and forgot the product, it seems.
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sugar springs



Posts : 9
Join date : 2010-10-08
Location : North West Arkansas

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:32 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
But if the typical commercial herd is a blurred mosaic of breed crosses anyway, will a composite bull take them any deeper into genetic chaos and disarray?

No as they are already in chaos and disarray so it won't hurt an operation.
But should not someone try to improve PROFITABLITY?
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MKeeney
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Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:41 pm

sugar springs wrote:
dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
But if the typical commercial herd is a blurred mosaic of breed crosses anyway, will a composite bull take them any deeper into genetic chaos and disarray?

No as they are already in chaos and disarray so it won't hurt an operation.
But should not someone try to improve PROFITABLITY?
why would you think anyone would be trying to do anything but improve profitability? Composite bulls can be a step in that direction for commercial producers; but to those registered breeders clinging to the mothering ability of a breed association? I doubt it...
now genetic chaos and disarray are mighty spunky, flowing kind of words, but without a doubt in my mind, the usefulness of the registered breeding stock available today is the best in my lifetime...admittedly, the 50,60,70,80`s offered very little competition to exceed..
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Mark Day



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Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:40 pm

I am thinking the more folks use composites as terminal sires and don't keep any replacements, the replacement business should get booming...and it is always easier to sell a guy 20 females than it is 20 bulls. It would likely pay to sell them as breds and not opens although it would be nice to be able to move calving ease maternal bulls as part of the packages.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:07 am

Mark Day wrote:
I am thinking the more folks use composites as terminal sires and don't keep any replacements, the replacement business should get booming...and it is always easier to sell a guy 20 females than it is 20 bulls. It would likely pay to sell them as breds and not opens although it would be nice to be able to move calving ease maternal bulls as part of the packages.

Good assumption Mark, I think the cow numbers back it up.....I agree, and think it will shrink further, before the CAUSE is truly understood.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:16 am

Composite bulls can/will be used in maternal fashion as well...which is a good thing for those breeding maternal purebreds.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:25 am

MKeeney wrote:
Composite bulls can/will be used in maternal fashion as well...which is a good thing for those breeding maternal purebreds.

I think you are right, as I sat thru the local cattle auction yesterday, it is truly educational, WIDE variety of types, calf quality has improved in the area.......but the real education lies in the Broken Mouth, Short-solids.........seldom do the extremes show up there, there is a definitive type to the stayers and also definintive TYPES to the quiters.

Either way, there was not much premium to be had in the calves yesterday, tall or short, fat or thin, the price spread was slim........a good buying oppurtunity exists, if the resources are available.
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sugar springs



Posts : 9
Join date : 2010-10-08
Location : North West Arkansas

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:00 am

MKeeney wrote:
sugar springs wrote:
The main issue in my area (since I live where I do I will limit my answers to my area) is the lack of a consistent commercial breeding program. All one has to do is drive through the country and see rainbows of colors of the average cow herd. So if you have no defined commercial breeding program what good would using HYBRED bulls do for such a program?
does the diversity of type match the diversity of color?

Yes the diversity of type is in sync with the diversity of color. From horned Brahma cross 1900 pound cows to 1000 pound cows sll within the same herd.
For a long time it was thought you had to have ear in order to handle the heat in this area. So we have Braford-Brangus-Simbra cross then throw on what ever the latest bull craze was. We had at one time a large Simmental breeder who sold lots of large bulls. So frame is plentyful in our area. One thing you have to give to the eared cattle is longevity.
We are a predominate chicken producing area with cattle to clean up the grass. Slowly changing to get a uniform set of cows but not there yet.
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:05 am

You are right about the educational value of cull cow/bull market Bootheel. It is often me, the two guys taking turns buying, and a couple of old guys with nothing else to do Wink

The slaughter bull market is equally interesting as there are a lot of lame young bulls that come thru. Likely ruined before they ever bred a cow.
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sugar springs



Posts : 9
Join date : 2010-10-08
Location : North West Arkansas

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:53 am

MKeeney wrote:
sugar springs wrote:
dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
But if the typical commercial herd is a blurred mosaic of breed crosses anyway, will a composite bull take them any deeper into genetic chaos and disarray?

No as they are already in chaos and disarray so it won't hurt an operation.
But should not someone try to improve PROFITABLITY?
why would you think anyone would be trying to do anything but improve profitability? Composite bulls can be a step in that direction for commercial producers; but to those registered breeders clinging to the mothering ability of a breed association? I doubt it...
now genetic chaos and disarray are mighty spunky, flowing kind of words, but without a doubt in my mind, the usefulness of the registered breeding stock available today is the best in my lifetime...admittedly, the 50,60,70,80`s offered very little competition to exceed..

why would you think anyone would be trying to do anything but improve profitability?
IMHO Some operators I have observed maintain this year is more profitable because the price of calves is up. No question increased prices will increase profit. But does it mean you improved your profitability if calf prices are up over 25% but your expenses went up 20% yes you are making more profit but is your profitability up.

Composite bulls can be a step in that direction for commercial producers; No question composite bulls might for a very few commercial producers be a step towards more profitability but the down side of the improper use of random composite bulls may be larger isue for the overall cattle industry.

but to those registered breeders clinging to the mothering ability of a breed association? I doubt it...

The rest of your response allows many ways to answer I would need you to be more specific is this a question or a personal statement!

now genetic chaos and disarray are mighty spunky, flowing kind of words, but without a doubt in my mind, the usefulness of the registered breeding stock available today is the best in my lifetime...admittedly, the 50,60,70,80`s offered very little competition to exceed

Many commercial producers as well as registered producers have caused in my opinion the chaos and disarray we have in the commercial cowherd today. Overall I have to agree on the usefullness of the available stock today is a lot more useful than a lot of the cattle of that era. But it took going through those years of experience to find what is useful and what show us what we need to produce today.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:01 pm

I`ve heard/read we have too many breeds/composites etc to choose from, and that choice has created the disarray etc...which is kinda like those blaming EPDs for all the disarray we see in the registered world...
Not disagreeing with Tom, just maybe a little different perspective...I suppose we`ll have disarray as long as we have at least two breeders Smile
But until we see the profit sheet; who is to say what or who is in disarray? I reckon all the meat that gets produced gets eaten...at some price...
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:10 am

As long as a well run straightbred system is compared to a poorly run composite system, the well run system will win. The heritability of most traits is less than 50%; a good manager is pretty important.
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tc



Posts : 76
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 67
Location : Moss,Tn

PostSubject: Mike, how are these bulls coming along?   Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:14 pm

MKeeney wrote:
These 1/4 Gelbvieh, 3/4 Angus bulls have the muscle, frame, and growth I want in feeder calves...why should I not offer them as breeding stock?


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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:36 pm

tc wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
These 1/4 Gelbvieh, 3/4 Angus bulls have the muscle, frame, and growth I want in feeder calves...why should I not offer them as breeding stock?




Travis,
these raschals have really gained and just like the Longhorns, prove the usefulness of different types for different purposes
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tc



Posts : 76
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Age : 67
Location : Moss,Tn

PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:58 pm

I figured they would do good, trying to bring a couple of Tn guys up for your spring sale.
April 2nd right?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:04 pm

tc wrote:
I figured they would do good, trying to bring a couple of Tn guys up for your spring sale.
April 2nd right?
April 2...I`ll spew forth the Blue Sky from both barrels in a day or two about it all Smile
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