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 The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls

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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:10 pm

I lost my initial responce, which goes along with my train of thought following the same arguement on multiple threads.

Anyhow, here are my skewed thoughts

1. The poultry industry has been brought up as something to emulate in a breeding program. Maybe, maybe not. As I have been involved in the breeder side of the broiler industry for 16 years, I would say not. Their end product is lacking, management is lacking, the birds ability to cope with any hiccup in their life is SEVERELY lacking. They spend TONS of money trying to fix the environment on the bird that is suppossed to be more efficient and more profitable. The poultry industry, according to my paranoia filled prophecy, is DOOMED as we know it. Thus I have opted out, rather than be indebted to the serfdom of the tyrany of MEGA- Food production.

Now is it the fault of the genetics, I will say yes, as we have experienced the good and bad in the different lines of CRAP they have sent us.....disposition issues, structure issues, survivability issues etc. Even in the SuperControled environment, much is still lacking.

2. I had a responce for Composite Bulls, but the previous poster summed it up pretty well, The F1 female is good, better if bred back to a seperate inbred or breed line, I think is better.

3. Much can be learned from plant breeding, yes, but I will agree with Dwights thoughts, as the ability to purify the genes on animals is much more complex, and time limited, especially in cattle.


Just my opinion, which amounts to piddly squat, anyhow

Ya'll have a good day
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:29 pm

Gregory Walker wrote:
Dwight said""When does a composite become a breed?"
My answer is when it distinctively breeds true for the traits desired."

Wouldn't that pretty much rule out the angus breed as a breed then?

I am predicting that breeding cattle will be significantly different once we stop giving "breeds" as much credit as they receive today and instead shift our focus to "strains." The word "breed" may soon be defined as a term for one of various social clubs in particular to a few basic traits that the cattle they own share in common. That is if continued outcrossing with the present "breeds" continues to be encouraged.
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norcal



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:38 pm

question for flyings.... you spent time at the rex ranch. don't they have a "rex ranch" composite? what were your experiences with that set of cattle? uniformity? predictability? complexity of management? breed make-up of herd? goals/objectives? strengths/weaknesses?? please disregard the question if there is no such thing as a rex ranch composite......
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:46 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
Gregory Walker wrote:
Dwight said""When does a composite become a breed?"
My answer is when it distinctively breeds true for the traits desired."

Wouldn't that pretty much rule out the angus breed as a breed then?

I am predicting that breeding cattle will be significantly different once we stop giving "breeds" as much credit as they receive today and instead shift our focus to "strains." The word "breed" may soon be defined as a term for one of various social clubs in particular to a few basic traits that the cattle they own share in common. That is if continued outcrossing with the present "breeds" continues to be encouraged.
I predict we will move to biological types... breeds; and strains{if there are any} will be instrumental in the beginnings of such; not much thereafter...my time frame guess is 50 years; there`s still a lot of money to be made prolonging the problems that exists in the breeding industry today.
I really don`t care the breed source of my cattle`s muscle{as expressed in that beginning pic}; cattle genes are cattle genes eh? Breed might define what additional plus and minus characteristics came with that muscle gene...but, by and large, given nature`s correlations, i don`t think that will vary too much either.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:24 pm

What is the IBC for parent lines of corn? Anybody know. And the poultry industry got mentioned. Many of the broilers are a two line cross but I am pretty sure that the turkeys are one line with selection for gain and strong hip bones. If we are comparing cattle to other species, then which species is the correct example? And why?
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:29 pm

EddieM wrote:
What is the IBC for parent lines of corn? Anybody know. And the poultry industry got mentioned. Many of the broilers are a two line cross but I am pretty sure that the turkeys are one line with selection for gain and strong hip bones. If we are comparing cattle to other species, then which species is the correct example? And why?
how many purebred hog breeds are used in commercial production?
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:31 pm

EddieM wrote:
What is the IBC for parent lines of corn? Anybody know. And the poultry industry got mentioned. Many of the broilers are a two line cross but I am pretty sure that the turkeys are one line with selection for gain and strong hip bones. If we are comparing cattle to other species, then which species is the correct example? And why?

I would feel very safe saying that the IBC's of most parent lines of corn is higher than the average of a trailer load of the most inbred bulls you can find. Corn can self-fertilize. Cattle cannot.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:33 pm

Quote :
how many purebred hog breeds are used in commercial production?

Another species to consider. Don't forget sheep amd hamsters! Rolling Eyes
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CW



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:52 pm

If many, or all of the modern breeds of cattle started as composites of the local/geographic populations, then were close bred over time to form breeds, how far off those initial ideals are today's "purebred" cattle? Have breeds esentially become composites again with the infussion of foreign blood by unscruplious breeders over the years since they became a "breed"? Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:33 pm

craig wrote:
If many, or all of the modern breeds of cattle started as composites of the local/geographic populations, then were close bred over time to form breeds, how far off those initial ideals are today's "purebred" cattle? Have breeds esentially become composites again with the infussion of foreign blood by unscruplious breeders over the years since they became a "breed"? Just a thought.
more than a thought; fact in my experience...I remember being on the board{orchestrated by friends; not me} of Ky Angus Association here for a little...there was talk in those days{around 1978} of allowing white in front of the navel to be registered...our regional manager, then and now, was somewhat in favor...the board threw one hell of a fit over such an impure idea...then later on, over my lone no vote, unanimousily approved a showjock/breeder, who would later ascend to AAA president, to judge our state show and sale who had done more to basterdize the Angus breed than anyone in history {horns; white feet, etc}...hypocrisy supreme; I quit shortly thereafter, because it was such a counterfeit waste of time.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:48 pm

if you don`t like to read; go to the summary..page 11
http://www.asas.org/symposia/9899proc/0927.pdf
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:58 pm

Interesting that the article is 10 years old. No surprise the speed of people following the recommendations.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:04 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Interesting that the article is 10 years old. No surprise the speed of people following the recommendations.
just 40 more before it might be implemented Smile
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tc



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:22 pm

I like cross Mike...what kind of price do you have on these bulls?
1/4 Gelb. 3/4 Angus.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:29 pm

tc wrote:
I like cross Mike...what kind of price do you have on these bulls?
1/4 Gelb. 3/4 Angus.
Travis,
I`ll develop, semen check, etc as usual...sell next April at the usual minimum of $1500 if the cattle market holds and the bulls perform as I expect; with 5 selling, near minimum should buy one; no difference in them....I know a couple of guys who are just going to love them...
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tc



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:40 pm

Sounds Good Mike,
If the semen deal on your unwanted post is still on, I may make a trip up sooner and check them out also. thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:47 pm

tc wrote:
Sounds Good Mike,
If the semen deal on your unwanted post is still on, I may make a trip up sooner and check them out also. thanks.
Travis,
yours is a test herd; so you get the test herd special on Unwanted semen; you know what I mean Smile ...come up; I want you to see him; few bulls have ever pleased me as much
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tc



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:51 pm

Thanks Mike,
Will do, I'll give you a call first.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:25 pm

pitchfork wrote:
Who says 100% of maximum heterosis is the optimum in all situations? Most of us who have been around the block a few times have been burned by too much of something (growth, milk, etc).

I am just stating a fact concerning maximum hybrid vigor.

Hybrid vigor has an effect on milk, maybe not as much on growth. I suspect you had bulls that were higher in additive genetic value (EPD) than what you found desirable.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:04 am

norcal wrote:
question for flyings.... you spent time at the rex ranch. don't they have a "rex ranch" composite? what were your experiences with that set of cattle? uniformity? predictability? complexity of management? breed make-up of herd? goals/objectives? strengths/weaknesses?? please disregard the question if there is no such thing as a rex ranch composite......
Bootheel asked me to share some information earlier as well. Yes, the Rex has there own composite. I will sum it up as quick as possible. You will not find a more uniform higher performing set of cows that will perform on less anywhere in the Sandhills, maybe the US. I understand that I probably have a pretty high opinion but I have seen the numbers, they are impressive. They have a 4 way cross of angus, hereford, simmental, and one other breed that may vary some. The offspring will be very uniform and perform excellent, they do have some trouble grading. The females are pretty dang fertile and have a fair amount of longevity. The calves have blown the doors of the competition when it comes to conversion. I can tell you that if you won't to talk about low cost of production and lbs produced per acre you better come with both barrels loaded. There are environments that will run cattle on less acres but in comparable environment they are running on 2/3 to a little less than half of their neighbors and doing it well. The cows are easy to manage the genetics I would say are not as complex as a registered breeder. I would love to own 1000 hd of these cows, heck 500 would be great. I have not seen any cattle that are comparable.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:38 am

MKeeney wrote:
if you don`t like to read; go to the summary..page 11
http://www.asas.org/symposia/9899proc/0927.pdf
Only read the summary, but looks like a plan to turn cattlemen into shepherds of an industry designed composite.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:32 am

RobertMac wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
if you don`t like to read; go to the summary..page 11
http://www.asas.org/symposia/9899proc/0927.pdf
Only read the summary, but looks like a plan to turn cattlemen into shepherds of an industry designed composite.
wow..big statement standing right beside a red bull avatar that was once a three breed composite....whatever composite I might someday make, I sure want it industry useful and profitable...if that makes me their shepherd, so it be it...I can change cattle, but I can`t change an industry.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:33 am

flyingS wrote:
norcal wrote:
question for flyings.... you spent time at the rex ranch. don't they have a "rex ranch" composite? what were your experiences with that set of cattle? uniformity? predictability? complexity of management? breed make-up of herd? goals/objectives? strengths/weaknesses?? please disregard the question if there is no such thing as a rex ranch composite......
Bootheel asked me to share some information earlier as well. Yes, the Rex has there own composite. I will sum it up as quick as possible. You will not find a more uniform higher performing set of cows that will perform on less anywhere in the Sandhills, maybe the US. I understand that I probably have a pretty high opinion but I have seen the numbers, they are impressive. They have a 4 way cross of angus, hereford, simmental, and one other breed that may vary some. The offspring will be very uniform and perform excellent, they do have some trouble grading. The females are pretty dang fertile and have a fair amount of longevity. The calves have blown the doors of the competition when it comes to conversion. I can tell you that if you won't to talk about low cost of production and lbs produced per acre you better come with both barrels loaded. There are environments that will run cattle on less acres but in comparable environment they are running on 2/3 to a little less than half of their neighbors and doing it well. The cows are easy to manage the genetics I would say are not as complex as a registered breeder. I would love to own 1000 hd of these cows, heck 500 would be great. I have not seen any cattle that are comparable.

FlyingS,

Does the Rex Ranch retain ownership or is it a case by case basis?

Is Chip still the manager?

Do they use horned or polled Herefords?

Do they use black or red Angus? What about Simmental?

Is the cowherd red or black?

How much do the cows weigh? Do they maximize EPDs or optimize EPDs? Do they even use EPDs?

I am sure they have a pretty "dull pencil" from determining how to make the most money. Why not just run straight Angus?

df
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flyingS



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:20 am

df wrote:
flyingS wrote:
norcal wrote:
question for flyings.... you spent time at the rex ranch. don't they have a "rex ranch" composite? what were your experiences with that set of cattle? uniformity? predictability? complexity of management? breed make-up of herd? goals/objectives? strengths/weaknesses?? please disregard the question if there is no such thing as a rex ranch composite......
Bootheel asked me to share some information earlier as well. Yes, the Rex has there own composite. I will sum it up as quick as possible. You will not find a more uniform higher performing set of cows that will perform on less anywhere in the Sandhills, maybe the US. I understand that I probably have a pretty high opinion but I have seen the numbers, they are impressive. They have a 4 way cross of angus, hereford, simmental, and one other breed that may vary some. The offspring will be very uniform and perform excellent, they do have some trouble grading. The females are pretty dang fertile and have a fair amount of longevity. The calves have blown the doors of the competition when it comes to conversion. I can tell you that if you won't to talk about low cost of production and lbs produced per acre you better come with both barrels loaded. There are environments that will run cattle on less acres but in comparable environment they are running on 2/3 to a little less than half of their neighbors and doing it well. The cows are easy to manage the genetics I would say are not as complex as a registered breeder. I would love to own 1000 hd of these cows, heck 500 would be great. I have not seen any cattle that are comparable.

FlyingS,

Does the Rex Ranch retain ownership or is it a case by case basis?

Is Chip still the manager?

Do they use horned or polled Herefords?

Do they use black or red Angus? What about Simmental?

Is the cowherd red or black?

How much do the cows weigh? Do they maximize EPDs or optimize EPDs? Do they even use EPDs?

I am sure they have a pretty "dull pencil" from determining how to make the most money. Why not just run straight Angus?

df
I haven't worked for them for about 3 yrs and things are constantly changing there so my answers may not be accurate. I do not know what bulls they use, their composite has been built for many years, they basically have developed their own breed. The cattle are not pulled. The seedstock cows weigh around 1175 to 1225 the terminal herd weighs around 1275-1300. They did not use EPD's while I was there, but were starting to collect data on the bulls. The cow herd is multi-colored, mainly red and black. They run a tight ship for sure. Straight bred Angus will not perform like their own composite does in their environment. They are out performing their neighbors and doing it on less input and acres.
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:36 am

I heard Chip Ramsey give an internet presentation thru DVA Auctions with Lee Leachman once and what they were doing on that scale was impressive. On a smaller scale it could be tough to try to repeat genetically- except perhaps with dreaded AI. Evil or Very Mad
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