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 The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:14 pm

These 1/4 Gelbvieh, 3/4 Angus bulls have the muscle, frame, and growth I want in feeder calves...why should I not offer them as breeding stock?


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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:34 pm



Only the result of the first cross are genetically predictable. The effect of heterosis greatly diminishes after the 1st cross. There will be less uniformity in the offspring of these bulls. They're the product of a terminal breeding.

My opinion.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:02 pm

Should producers of commercial cattle expect 100% hybrid vigor?
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:24 pm

You have offered gelbveih incfluenced bulls before (very small numbers) and what has been the results? The first cross is the greatest cross and with these bulls sire being Keeney genetics not much there for many of your customers to hook onto in regards to hybrid vigor - may breed a bit more like B's than C's and as previously stated - how predictable will they be?
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:51 pm

MKeeney wrote:
These 1/4 Gelbvieh, 3/4 Angus bulls have the muscle, frame, and growth I want in feeder calves...why should I not offer them as breeding stock?

With the limited experience I have, I look to others that have better perspective. When contemplating your question, that has been asked more for the benefit of others than yourself...

This quote from LL helps bring clarity as it is a reminder that the range of deviation from the means can not only be genetic but also in consumer satisfaction as well. This sheds light on the real wrecks some customers have and the great success of others and the subsequencal focus on the positive deviation, as being the means of human nature Wink

LL wrote:
Everyone knows the reality is that any genetically mongrelized animal with or without registration papers can have trait progeny averages while ignoring the range of deviation from the means. So factual reality is that many of your customers will likely get "more than they see" frome your cattle.... and "less than what they see" from your cattle.... part of the amazing wonders of genetics Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:35 am

chocolate cow wrote:


Only the result of the first cross are genetically predictable. The effect of heterosis greatly diminishes after the 1st cross. There will be less uniformity in the offspring of these bulls. They're the product of a terminal breeding.

My opinion.


Commercial cattlemen sell phenotypes, not genotypes.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:08 am

Here is what I will contend; and Larry and I already have experience arguing these points; if he gets beet dug , we might argue more... Smile
ok, some hybrid vigor has been used up, but there is at least equal or more to using a growth Angus bull on Angus cows {equal only because who knows how hybrid some Angus bulls are from the era of the frame explosion..{pine drive etc}
I contend there will be no greater progeny variation as a result of using these bulls than using purebred bulls in the quantatative traits {those trait levels determined by large numbers of additive genes}..in this case, because the qualitative genes are the same, the progeny will be consistently black and polled
why make composites? ok, the registered Angus bull I am most familiar with I have used most like these bulls heavy muscle and growth is Gridmaker...I doubt Gridmaker was the breeding objective, he was selected from the variation created breeding mostly for growth etc...but he is progeny proven individual for muscle and growth..
but the Gelbvieh breed is proven growth and muscle...so what is the bottom line difference bewteen going to a breed to get predictable needed traits than selecting an outlier purebred to get those traits? I contend very little...
practical application...Angus breeders are selecting for more marbling...we can see the negative tradeoffs occuring from the correlated traits that come with marbling {generally less muscle or a more frail appearance, slower growth}..it will take thirty years to make Angus marble similar to Waygu crosses; and when they do, they will look and perform like Wagyu crosses...today a high marbling Angus bull costs you a lot of money...why not make Wagyu crosses cheaply and consistently and use them instead?
awww, could the best reason be it screws up the registered rarity game?
my thoughts; shoot them down at will, let`s have a discussion Smile
two points to remember...to make the hybrid bulls I want to create and sell, we must have some purebreds...and I`m not promoting composites formation for retained heterosis ala Clay Center {too complicated} I`m promoting composites as a quick and cheap way to make the genetics commercial producers need/want...
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:20 am

Quote :
I`m promoting composites as a quick and cheap way to make the genetics commercial producers need/want...

But will they buy them?
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sugar springs



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:00 am

The main issue in my area (since I live where I do I will limit my answers to my area) is the lack of a consistent commercial breeding program. All one has to do is drive through the country and see rainbows of colors of the average cow herd. So if you have no defined commercial breeding program what good would using HYBRED bulls do for such a program?
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:06 am

But if the typical commercial herd is a blurred mosaic of breed crosses anyway, will a composite bull take them any deeper into genetic chaos and disarray?
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flyingS



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:27 am

Why wouldn't they buy hybred bulls. They are doing it all over. The inconsistency in a cow herd or calf crop is more due to lack of management. If people start to tighten up their breeding season you begin to see more uniformity. Buy homozygous bulls and you get very little color variation. The other side of it is use a purebred or composite cow and breed her truly terminal, Charlois. I believe that what many of your are calling terminal is just a crossbred cow or bull, there are thousands of them in the commercial side of the business and a bunch in the seedstock industry. Seedstock does not mean registered, it is just someone who produces replacement quality animals for sale, generally as their main income source. Look at Altenberg's Super Baldies just to name one off of the top of my head. There are hundreds of producers selling balancer bulls as well. As they say hybred vigor, the only free lunch.
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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:58 am

SimmAngus are being heavily promoted in my part of the country. I will always believe that genetic diversity/heterosis cannot be expressed by using a composite bull. There simply are no short cuts, no matter what you are doing. Now the upside of this is, there's always someone who will buy what you're selling. You have to find that person/market. They are probably the same sort that change with the direction of the wind, looking for that newer, faster deal. tongue
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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:06 am

If you visit with most commercial cattle people, they're farmers first. Cattle are a sideline. Extension service & beef magazines are leading the way. If producers understood a terminal cross, the national herd wouldn't be mongrels searching for a "fix".
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:37 am

I can buy the argument that in reality a hybrid bull is often little different form an outcrossed bull from withing a genetically diverse breed but I don't see that selling hybrids or composites necessarily screws up the "registered rarity" game. Up here we have guys adding a new layer to the registered rarity game by selling hybrid bulls that come with home produced "registration certificates" Rolling Eyes This must be one of the greatest cons ever - using hybrid vigor openly to produce impressive figures and numbers in the crossbred bull generation they are selling and issuing them with papers to pretend that they are registered cattle. We have a number of large scale multi-breed bull sellers up here that market various hybrid lines often in the $3-4000 average price range. Why so much? surely if they are really only selling hybrid vigor that shouldn't be too hard to reproduce? Bottom line - if commercial guys are happy to buy into this kind of silliness it's their choice.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:40 am

sugar springs wrote:
The main issue in my area (since I live where I do I will limit my answers to my area) is the lack of a consistent commercial breeding program. All one has to do is drive through the country and see rainbows of colors of the average cow herd. So if you have no defined commercial breeding program what good would using HYBRED bulls do for such a program?

If only all genes/traits were as visible as color, the commercial guy may find himself right at home with his lack of a consistent breeding program....

We will buy those bulls and will spend more on them then the parts to make them. I could make money using those bulls both on my maternal herd and in the terminal herds.

We can tighten up calving, make them the same color, take of the horns on our commercial operation with little effort, the problem I see is that’s the same direction and focus of the so called breeds and the quickest way to get every breed to the same polled color and size is to utilize cattle that already have the traits.

I just believe we can take this to another level with Tru-Line......
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:51 am

sugar springs wrote:
The main issue in my area (since I live where I do I will limit my answers to my area) is the lack of a consistent commercial breeding program. All one has to do is drive through the country and see rainbows of colors of the average cow herd. So if you have no defined commercial breeding program what good would using HYBRED bulls do for such a program?
does the diversity of type match the diversity of color?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:55 am

Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
I`m promoting composites as a quick and cheap way to make the genetics commercial producers need/want...

But will they buy them?
selling it comes after establishing if there is usefulness and need..plenty of registered has been sold, and continues to be sold that has neither...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:58 am

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
But if the typical commercial herd is a blurred mosaic of breed crosses anyway, will a composite bull take them any deeper into genetic chaos and disarray?
what causes genetic chaos and disarray? using different breeds or using different types?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:10 pm

chocolate cow wrote:
SimmAngus are being heavily promoted in my part of the country. I will always believe that genetic diversity/heterosis cannot be expressed by using a composite bull. [/color]There simply are no short cuts, no matter what you are doing. Now the upside of this is, there's always someone who will buy what you're selling. You have to find that person/market. They are probably the same sort that change with the direction of the wind, looking for that newer, faster deal. tongue
heterosis cannot be maximized without some effort for sure, I think more effort than ispractical in the 4 breed composite..but a two breed?
but I`m not advocating maximizing heterosis; more a question of quickly and cheaply creating needed types versus purebred breeding slowness....look at our competitors...how many purebreds are used in pork or poultry production today?
How much difference in practical application and net results commercially would there be between a high milk, big frame registered Angus cow and a 3/4 Angus, 1/4 holstein beef cow?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:21 pm

Some commercial folks are willing to use composite bulls because of bad experiences with purebred bulls not being useful. Type crossing has something useful. Learned that from years ago trying to breed up some Brangus with two dissimilar types. Would a black baldie bull have a function in a commercial herd like his sisters do?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:26 pm

Dwight,
you are the corn analogy man...how many line crosses are made before the commercial producer plants it?
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:14 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Dwight,
you are the corn analogy man...how many line crosses are made before the commercial producer plants it?
One or two. But in a way we are comparing apples and oranges here as the parentlines used to create a corn hybrid are more genetically pure (more homozygous) than the parentlines used in breeding cattle. It is because of this I believe that closebred parentlines of cattle should be sought even more. The cattle parentlines are not going to be a pure as the parentlines of most commodity grains, but even a greater amount of impurity (heterozygosity) will be present with the composite cattle.

Naturally, a discussion of such will evolve into the question: "When does a composite become a breed?"
My answer is when it distinctively breeds true for the traits desired. So then does the pivital question become: "What traits are we talking about?"

Believe it or not there are some corn farmers that only want to plant single cross hybrids. Guess they don't like composites as parents of their crop, but I really doubt if the majority really care. Like a large number of cattlemen, most will just plant what the seed salesman recommends for their circumstances or presumed environment. Most corn farmers are not geneticists. (Neither are most cattlemen) Most feel comfortable resigning that over to the seed salesman. The salesmen can provide all of the quantifiable information needed for their customers to justify to their friends that they made an intelligent decision. Now before I get lots of angry emails for that, we have to take into account that a person doesn't need to be as informed about the genetics of his grains/plants because of the closebreeding that has already taken place to create these seeds. Not the same can be said about cattle, especially with the popularity of outcrossing in beef genetics.

I propose this as a rhetorical question: Do you ask about the purity (genetics) of the grasses or tobacco you plant? Why or why not? It could be that your answer to this will give some perspective on just how important the level of planned heterozygoisty in cattle should be. Perhaps not. I may just be a rambling lunatic. Maybe a better question is if LL inquires about the genetics of the crops he plants?...why or why not?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:31 pm

The ONLY way a commercial cattleman can have 100% of the hybrid vigor is by buying F1 females and using a third, terminal bull.
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:06 pm

Dwight said""When does a composite become a breed?"
My answer is when it distinctively breeds true for the traits desired."

Wouldn't that pretty much rule out the angus breed as a breed then?
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PostSubject: Re: The problem with using Composite or Hybrid bulls   Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:07 pm

Who says 100% of maximum heterosis is the optimum in all situations? Most of us who have been around the block a few times have been burned by too much of something (growth, milk, etc).
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