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MVCatt



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Tru Line Results   Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:32 pm

I know we had Inbred Nubbins, but I was wondering if anyone who is currently using Tru Line principles would like to post some results here. Maybe show the parent stock as well. Thought it would be nice to see some of the fruits of your labor.

Signed......Can't help but think I missed something special in Red Lodge.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:31 pm

how about we just draw you some from our imagination Chris Smile ...since outside of Shoshone, the imagination is where most of Tru-Line exists...principles oft discussed, rarely practiced...Red Lodge was an inspiring event; we`ll wait to see if it was an ending or beginning ...
the man who goes alone can start today; one who needs company must always wait until another man is ready..hdt
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chocolate cow



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Location : Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:51 am

from Foxx this morning on 4.9..........


"I don't quite understand why it is that the cows I purchased are all being eliminated and the ones I am breeding myself are staying with the better ratios, but it seems to work that way for me right now. I would hope in a few years, the older ones will be the producers, and I will struggle to keep the younger ones who are not as high ratio. It isn't that way now.

It is a bit disheartening to me because I would like to be raising calves from cows with longevity, but I guess pounds is more important. So I'm eliminating those cows that are in the bottom of the production for the herd. I kept one, but she was old and died. Her daughter isn't the highest producer in pounds (just average), but she sure produces a great looking calf every year, so she stays."
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:10 am

chocolate cow wrote:
from Foxx this morning on 4.9..........


"I don't quite understand why it is that the cows I purchased are all being eliminated and the ones I am breeding myself are staying with the better ratios, but it seems to work that way for me right now. I would hope in a few years, the older ones will be the producers, and I will struggle to keep the younger ones who are not as high ratio. It isn't that way now.

It is a bit disheartening to me because I would like to be raising calves from cows with longevity, but I guess pounds is more important. So I'm eliminating those cows that are in the bottom of the production for the herd. I kept one, but she was old and died. Her daughter isn't the highest producer in pounds (just average), but she sure produces a great looking calf every year, so she stays."

This statement is evidence that it takes all kinds. Milk, that is, clabbered milk to be precise that has taken the place of somebody's brain. I read a statement like this and all I can feel is the nightmarish behavior of irrational self flailing.

Dennis Voss in the vicinity of madness (this statement)
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larkota



Posts : 395
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 56
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:40 am

where I'm at today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYpADZiv00

with this group and time maybe, someday, I will have something to pass along. till then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYpADZiv00

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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:15 pm

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:31 pm

I think Foxx represents mainstream new breeder really well...

ok, ok, the charade has gone on long enough...I`m Foxx Smile
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MVCatt



Posts : 147
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Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:53 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I think Foxx represents mainstream new breeder really well...

ok, ok, the charade has gone on long enough...I`m Foxx Smile

Well....That answers my next question Laughing .
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:44 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
chocolate cow wrote:
from Foxx this morning on 4.9..........


"I don't quite understand why it is that the cows I purchased are all being eliminated and the ones I am breeding myself are staying with the better ratios, but it seems to work that way for me right now. I would hope in a few years, the older ones will be the producers, and I will struggle to keep the younger ones who are not as high ratio. It isn't that way now.

It is a bit disheartening to me because I would like to be raising calves from cows with longevity, but I guess pounds is more important. So I'm eliminating those cows that are in the bottom of the production for the herd. I kept one, but she was old and died. Her daughter isn't the highest producer in pounds (just average), but she sure produces a great looking calf every year, so she stays."

This statement is evidence that it takes all kinds.  Milk, that is, clabbered milk to be precise that has taken the place of somebody's brain.  I read a statement like this and all I can feel is the nightmarish behavior of irrational self flailing.  

Dennis Voss in the vicinity of madness (this statement)

reminders before reflection...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:52 am

5 years later

MKeeney wrote:
how about we just draw you some from our imagination Chris Smile ...since outside of Shoshone, the imagination is where most of Tru-Line {still} exists...principles oft discussed, rarely practiced...Red Lodge was an inspiring event; we`ll wait to see if it was an ending or beginning ...
 the man who goes alone can start today; one who needs company must always wait until another man is ready..hdt

prophetic ?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:57 pm

The reason that the dairy industry is light years ahead of the beef industry boils down to the unspoken and obvious point. The dairymen never cared what the bull looked like. The bull looked the way he looked as long as progress was made on the cow side. Beef producers do the "shuck and jive" routine on themselves. They talk about the goodness of the cow while not improving her, making her more economical and in turn spend all of their time looking at the bulls.
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pukerimu



Posts : 317
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:35 pm

Eddie I am interested in your perspective that the Dairy industry is light years ahead of beef - in NZ at least the rate of heifer drop out is enormous, jaws and feet pose dreadful problems for some animals ie light and undershot bottom jaws and feet that cannot walk the distances required of NZ dairy cows. Older cows are staying in the herd but they are becoming a rarity as their younger sisters fail to hack the pace and drop out before their prime too.

Production has increased exponentially in NZ but that has also gone hand in hand with many forgetting their grass based roots and forking out for tons of supplementary feed - now that the payout is way way down there are some for whom it has cost more to put the milk in the vat than the milk is worth.

Interesting times ahead - 10% of the dairy farmers hold 80% of the rural debt ...........................
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:44 am

Sure, the dairy industry and many dairymen got greedy and are greedy over single trait selections for production traits. And they had the tools to turn greed into reality. Anytime greed drives the wagon it is not to go on a vacation and they never write "They lived happily ever after" for the last 5 words of the story. The debt issue, the cow fallout rate, the structural issues, the over production and any other dairy issue is not due to the focus on the female as much as poor decisions and wanting more than is needed. Debt: too much infrastructure, labor, system, feed, without assuming that the prices will not pay for it.

I would like to sell pine cones for a living. Plant the trees, wait a few years for the briers to get shaded out, spray my cuffs with deet and go out and pick them up on a sunny warm day, put them in some old feed sacks, sell them for good money and call it wonderful. But I know that pine cones are plentiful, the market, if it were there, is maxed out or controlled and the demand is low to nil making the profit to be a loss. So, why do folks think that owning one dairy cow or thousands of dairy cows gives them the right to complain that milk prices are too low and it is not a doable and profitable situation is beyond me. The same old argument has been made for years yet some still venture there. But more are leaving than are going in. The real survivors around here with a future and a profit sell their own milk or specialty products. Others survive by going the route to be mega dairies where shift change looks like an old textile mill with people streaming in and out. Some in the crowds might speak English.

But the principles of dairy cow selection without real focus on bull looks has merit. Granted it has been abused. Maybe if they had checked the bulls for feet and legs, health issues, structure and such the problems would be less. If they had not selected only for production or butter fat, maybe they would not have inbred the animals as much. Maybe if fertility of the females was directly related to debt reduction then there would have been less ruination. There are dairies around that are atypical of the usual planned failure routine. They have cows with longevity, lower production, better fertility and overall better health. They gave up bragging rights on production to be there. But they are breeders who enjoy their choices.

I see Tru-line efforts, or variations of it, where herd populations are built to be the same way. Greed and bragging give way to realistic expectations that are not spectacular per individual animal but profitable for the whole herd or flock. Individuals with that mindset would not win a majority of votes in any US presidential primary or caucus this year. But swaying the majority that are willing to participate is not the backbone of establishing sound principles to live for.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:19 am

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pukerimu



Posts : 317
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Great articles thank you Kent.  I reiterate that the modern dairy industry symbolises more than anything the dangers of single trait selection.

We had an opportunity to chat with the woman who runs the local A/I, E/T and semen collection service a while ago and we discussed the dairy "hairy calf" issue.

A couple of years ago a semen company showered thousands of straws of semen on unsuspecting dairy farmers all around the country as "the bull of the day" - the resulting calves were hairy to the point of extreme, completely unable to cope with any warm temperatures - actually climbing into water troughs for relief and had short impractical muzzles and if any actually made it into the shed very poor production.

Of course all the heifers have been culled at vast expense to the farmers.  The point of my story is that the semen was collected from immature closely bred / related bull calves.  The technicians doing so called the semen company several times insisting that they should come and look at the animals before more semen was taken or before any was distributed.  The salesmen / agents/ peddlers / bright young things flatly refused, told them to get on and do their job or the penalty clauses would be activated and that the animals must be the best because their production data was off the chart - you can imagine after such condescending and rude conversations the technicians ceased to give a proverbial and continued as instructed ..............................

Seemingly all the bulls were on the receiving end of multiple recessive genes ................ all of them bad!

The single biggest driving factor for dairy farmers in NZ for the last decade or more has been who has the most milk in their vat - it has been the focus of discussion groups, farm advisers bag of tricks, how farms have been valued and generally a p...ing competition down at the pub - as a result in the current environment many are facing a situation where it is costing them more to produce the milk that it is worth (once debt servicing is involved) - sheep and beef farmers in NZ have seen it all before - the ups and downs and generally farm for the worst (it was a hard and painful lesson to come to that practise for many) unlike their dairy neighbours who paid above the odds to buy and convert land based on the highest payout ever seen .................. like that was going to last ................... yeah right!
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 912
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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:00 pm

Now you tell me there's a "hairy calf" defect pukerimu Surprised

This little steer on a windy day looks homozygous for it.


The rest exhibit mild symptoms but not the full blown condition.
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pukerimu



Posts : 317
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:04 pm

Haha - Grassy - I think that your hairy calf is out of necessity and desirable trait - these Friesian calves had excessively long coats in mid summer - not a case of needs must but a complete balls up.

If you google it I am sure you will find a photo - they were sad specimens on so many levels but their BV was off the charts lol!

We actually like a good coat on our cattle too - wind chill strips bones bare if there is not a nice layer of fur between it and the skin ................
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:25 am

Would make a nice rug. Might be a nitch market option.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:02 pm

http://www.tcscf.com/2015_Sire_Profit_Trait.pdf

when the cattle are hanging, I don`t see the difference as big as the talk...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:43 am

MKeeney wrote:
http://www.tcscf.com/2015_Sire_Profit_Trait.pdf

when the cattle are hanging, I don`t see the difference as big as the talk...

must you give extraordinary prices for bulls to create these ordinary results l

a summary...better than above...Angus out marble continentals; continentals out muscle Angus...anyone Shocked Twisted Evil ?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Thu May 05, 2016 8:49 am

Looking for experiences. I know that full sibs can vary greatly in breeding potential. Have you had full brothers from a line cross of two owned and proven individuals with great function, environmental fit and stability in your herd?

Did the full brothers bred pretty much the same or have you experienced train wrecks? I have a brother that I used last year, sitting him out to use the sire again and have a yearling full brother. Trying to figure out if I want to keep both brothers of if keeping and using the younger one would be any advantage. Thanks. Probably been discussed here 100 times but I have poor recall.
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PatB



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Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Thu May 05, 2016 9:02 am

EddieM wrote:
Looking for experiences.  I know that full sibs can vary greatly in breeding potential.  Have you had full brothers from a line cross of two owned and proven individuals with great function, environmental fit and stability in your herd?  

Did the full brothers bred pretty much the same or have you experienced train wrecks?  I have a brother that I used last year, sitting him out to use the sire again and have a yearling full brother.  Trying to figure out if I want to keep both brothers of if keeping and using the younger one would be any advantage.  Thanks.  Probably been discussed here 100 times but I have poor recall.

Full brothers vary wildly in what they transmit to their offspring. This has been proven multiple times by dairy bulls that are flush siblings. I have seen similar response in full female siblings. It all comes down to the luck of the draw when the egg is fertilized on what dna an animal will inherit.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Thu May 05, 2016 9:38 am

Make both sides of the coin heads go get greater predictability
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whitecow



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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Thu May 05, 2016 1:05 pm

I have two linebred (~28% IBC) Wagyu flushmate brothers. I have been using one AI and the other natural service in the pasture. I can't tell the difference in the calves between the two.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Tru Line Results   Thu May 05, 2016 1:41 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Make both sides of the coin heads go get greater predictability
Would you mind telling me the moral to this story with a little more detail? Are you saying to use both or not?
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