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MKeeney
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PostSubject: from LL   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:24 pm

Patb quote from Gavin's newsletter:
..... a bull (his individuality) is of no interest as such. It is his progeny that is of total importance. If this (DNA) can be predicted in a calf it will speed up generation interval by three years and make bull selection that much easier and accurate. A final measure for bull buying. If you are selling grassland beef, then selecting bulls with the alleles for tenderness makes a very big difference in the eating quality of the beef. This was where the reputation for scottish beef came from in Angus. These alleles appear to reside only in those cattle that retain their old scottish ancestory. Having eaten both beef the difference is considerable and will win you buyers that will stay with you forever."

Followed by Charles quote:
I am not sure if there ever was true genetic order ...I am really interested in Mr. Falloon's breeding program........would make a good terminal cross.

Patb, thanks for posting the useful topic on the entire set of Gavins newsletters, they describe his program exceptionally well. Charles, I interpret genetic order as increasing the gene frequency for certain characters. Breeders have moved in that direction often in the 200 years of breeding Angus cattle.....the problem is we don't seem to accept what "genetic order" cannot also do. I have learned to discontinue using the word "terminal". In a play with words, obviously parent stock cannot be terminal. I would prefer us to focus our mindset on the fact that steers and heifers (spayed) are the seedless fruit we enjoy eating just like seedless grapes or watermelons.... to refer to the beef we eat as the "fruit" of our labors Smile
If the type of "fruit" you want to produce is what the Pinebank cattle are, I think they would do just that for you. It has been well documented that "some types of high performing" females who do not necessarily make the better cows do far and away make superior female "fruit". I learned this back in my Shannon/Shanigan days. I also picked up this tidbit in one of the Waigroup ads whereby some of their open heifers topped the carcass contests. A long time friend and breeder in Nebraska, John S. exhibited many of the champion carcass's at Denver with what he told me were "cull" heifers. Certainly these are not a wasted effort, but the right kind of "cull heifers" can be a very beneficial part of our production, more profitable for feeders and benefit packers from the way the markets are structured today..

When Gavin described to me the type of the only two "outlier" cows that he said he produced (i.e. who consistently produced 20% more, one extra calf by weight in five years) and warned his son William not to continue to use bulls out of those specific cows, it was more frosting which re-confirmed all my observations to gain confidence that the Tru Line concept is on the right track.

It is disastrously so common in the registered sectors to criticize cattle for what they can't do which ultimately leads to compromises. I can confidently admire and greatly praise Gavin's cattle for what they CAN DO as he continues to improve his entire herd in his direction.....and I do not need to see them, ''IT IS THE PROGENY THAT IS OF TOTAL IMPORTANCE"..... the "fruit". I have said a rose is a rose any way we do it and we give roses to express our gratitude Smile
PatB Quote - Since their are several companies providing Genomic profiles, one not aligned with the AAA, would you consider sampling some of your cattle for your own personal use and interest? Somehow the shoshone genetics and other non mainstream genetics need to be sample and included in the genomic evaluations. The scientist analyzing the data could have some interesting pattern variations on markers. The question will be how does one find markers for low heritability traits or less glamorous traits. Should the AAA allow testing of non registered animals of Angus ancestry?

I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful questions which are uniquely revealing. Your last line struck a very raw nerve with me which stimulated me to go into another one of those therapueutical sessions for myself about "non mainstream genetics and non registered animals".
I have always and will continue to sample my cattle for identification purposes whether for my own personal use or for my customers. DNA is another progressive step for identification, just as EPD's, ratios, and on back in time to the methodology utilized in the formation of breeds via differing degrees of inbreeding. History records that Hugh Watson only registered about a dozen animals in his many years and after he died his wife burned his records. Some things in life never change and so often things have to get worse before they get better lest we become complacent. There is nothing wrong with being complacent but times change and competition is unrelenting. Competition drives and can lead to desperation for survival and thusly this is how progress evolves but not without many costs. We all know this but I have had to remind myself often to keep things in perspective.

In Gavin’s direction, genomics could speed up generation interval by three years, in my direction it could speed generation interval up to twenty years (longevity and the associated factors that's needed to reach it). In corn, genomics actually did speed up generation interval from 7 or 8 years down to 2 or 3 so far. I highlighted part of your questions in red because in regards to genomics, I still have the same concerns as I expressed when the worthy endeavors for identification in the shows, the performance era of ratios and then when EPD systems were initiated....not with the measures but as I said before with the common track record of human behavior. The track record of the mainstream registered sectors has been excessive speed and derailments one after another. Your last sentence shocked me back into the reality of the attachment, dependency or loyalty breeders have with AAA. For greater understanding of my position with AAA, I will bore you with some of my history Smile
I actively participated in the AHIR dept from the beginning when Assn personnel would visit the herds to classify our cattle. In those days there was no such thing as "heifer bulls". Angus bulls were often used for calving ease on Hereford heifers at a time when most everyone calved their heifers as three's...Gavin also refers to that in NZ.. I cannot recall a time when calving first calf heifers was free of problems. Back then, Jack W solved his problems with Jersey bulls on the first Simme X HH cows calling them "bittersweet" Hersheys....the HooDoo Charolais Ranch solved theirs by buying some of my sorriest looking tail end Angus bulls, and that was back when little blocky Angus averaged 55# at birth and we still had problems calving out purebred or straightbred first calf heifers....I think moreso than today because now we're breeding smaller bulls to larger cows instead of the other way around. Smile
In more modern times, Henry B solved his management problems with Wagyus, Dennis V solved his problems with Longhorns and Gavin tells us what he does. In the commercial world it is always about the cost/benefit ratio. In the 70's I worked closely with AHIR's structured sire evaluations. You might not be aware that back then when CMS (certified meat sires) were being identified, that the AHIR dept. decided to abandon carcass measures in SSE since they said there was no significant difference in the primary Angus sires of that day. However, from the industry's changing types, carcass data was only re-instated when the growing demand of the CAB program exceeded the continuing decline in the supply. And you posted what Gavin had to say about tenderness alleles, yet many might not accept the type that has emerged from his constant selection.

In 1978 when as a member of the Wye Advisory Panel, I was wanting the now UMF research herd to help develop and be a central MONITOR for the concepts that are described in my 1983 publication of the so called "Tru Line" concept.....which is nothing more than "breeding breeds WITHIN breeds"....or specific sub-populations of strains. Included in that panel, John Crouch represented the AAA as head of the AHIR department along with a representative of MARC and three notable geneticists. I would love to share all those experiences during those 5 or so years, the chaos that prevailed trying to get several different people to reach any objective....naturally we failed and disbanded I had wanted the UMF research foundation to provide the AUTHENTICITY for the development and guidelines of the Tru Line objective.

Having failed, sometime later I had some lengthy visits with John even in my own home about setting up a special section in AAA's AHIR dept to monitor the results of the development of special purpose strains and the subsequent results. John told me we would not live long enough to see what I was talking about...and besides EPD's would take care of all that...and besides I think he said the budget for AHIR was about 5% of AAA's total budget.....it would have to be self supporting. Well, I thought since I was only a member of one, I might as well self-support myself. You cannot imagine how shocked I was to hear that most of the AAA dollar goes for promotion......we all pay for the services it provides its membership, not with just the fees but much more from all the measures that are required from each and every one of us.....in order so each of us can use that information for promotion or whatever with supposedly some authenticity. We all know who ultimately pays dearly or all this "stuff"....the commercial producers ....the question is are they gaining more benefits from the ever increasing costs?. They alone will make that final decision given a choice.

The registered track record is bent toward promoting the benefits, I want to dwell on the COSTS. Several years BEFORE AAA took over control of the confidentiality of DNA analysis, the same way they took over control of the confidentiality of blood typing reports back in 1978, I had a private business relationship with MMI, the genomic lab in Davis, CA accumulating a drawer full of papers for my own use. By some backroad maneuver, suddenly AAA had the only control over any of my previous private records and all control over any subsequent ones. To put it mildly, I thought who in the hell do they think they are, always dictating what I am ALLOWED to do, including the power to tell us which of the never ending list of what our many defects are tolerable, and which few are not, I have many other reasons for leaving the AAA but this DNA episode was the last straw that broke this camel's back.

I have more than paid my way for the services provided by the AAA over the years, but far, far much more than that, I have paid dearly for MY CHOICE of battling upstream to improve the purity of my cattle while the AAA has been reaping great monetary values going downstream diluting purity. Dependant on what I define as purity, that is not just my opinion, that is evidentiary fact. And that is why Tom B wrote me that letter trying to hand me a rose that I cannot accept.

So Patb, in answer to your question, I would allow the AAA to use my herd to find "non mainstream essential markers", it is THIER CHOICE now of whether or not they want to dearly.pay for it. Just this morning I heard from a very long time close friend of mine, Ed Oliver in GA. Several years ago Ed received a young 3 yr old NON-registered shoshone" cow with essential but non-measured traits from me and he reported : " .......A389 had a bull calf. Was the 5th cow to calve..Has backed herself up from April to October (since he got her 5 years ago) What a cow!!! Could write all night but won't bother you further.... and I look forward to hearing from you...I value your friendship.....With regards and warm thoughts. Surely this is a 20,000 dollar cow but like Dennis said, when we can raise them ourselves, they are alot cheaper now : )
If a little grubby farmer from the little town of Cowley in a barren and dry dessert can reap these kind of essential, non-monetary rewards, or in Nancy KY, or in the tiny town of Two Dot MT without being handicapped by the help of AAA, why can't anyone? And Hilly, in answer to your post, have patience, I will get to it....so just savor the anticipation : ) And Boothill, your last post will go into my everlasting box of treasures, no need to explain about "propaganda", I've come to know and appreciate your personality. We might as well laugh at our failures so we can enjoy our successes that much more. It is so much more comforting to be down to earth with among the ordinary, but extra ordinary good people.
So much for this therapeutic session. As Bootheel always ends his posts with "Life is Good", mine is getting better....but shorter Smile Later....
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:21 pm

Thanx LL

There is so much history that has gone on with the AAA that the average breeder never knows about Sad The more I question things the more questions I have and they bring more questions. The internet has allow breeders to share thoughts, ideas and possible challenges from around the world.

Mikek can you tell who is accessing this site? I know on advantage it has been posted that the AAA IP address is one of the highest visitors to that site. I wounder if they are visiting this site also?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:28 pm

patb wrote:
Thanx LL

There is so much history that has gone on with the AAA that the average breeder never knows about Sad The more I question things the more questions I have and they bring more questions. The internet has allow breeders to share thoughts, ideas and possible challenges from around the world.

Mikek can you tell who is accessing this site? I know on advantage it has been posted that the AAA IP address is one of the highest visitors to that site. I wounder if they are visiting this site also?

I think I can; I hope they aren`t; they might steal our ideas Smile ...I hope commercial cattlemen are tuning in; AAA is your baby to rock Smile ...I can`t wait to advertise keeneyscorner. com in the Western Livestock Journal ...can you imagine the remarks? Smile
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:34 pm

The seedstock indsutry needs to be rocked a bit. There is a wealth of ideas on this site and the old 5barx that could help many a breeder.
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:49 pm

When telling someone today that I expect to be bringing a non registered bull home Sunday I was asked why I wanted to go backwards with my cattle. I told him I was not so certain that the AAA is doing anything I wanted to be a part of and that maybe the non registered cattle I am dealing with are several steps ahead of everyone else.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:40 am

Quote :
"I don't know what you thought when you were here for the visit because we never did get up to see the final product on the butte.

Mike, the discussion included snowballs: lightly packed (41/97X), medium packed and hard packed, and longhorns with potential Wagyus. What is the final product of this that you imagine that you'd see on the butte? I know that Dennis has been selecting for a maternal strain. But doesn't the introduction of the other breeds and strains (Pinebank) add a complication of genetic remixing to be sorted? Or am I thinking one strain and Dennis is working on multiple strains? Would strains be sorted by type when the calves are weaned if everything is run together? Just trying to get a mental picture.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:04 am

quote from LL

"I have always and will continue to sample my cattle for identification purposes whether for my own personal use or for my customers. DNA is another progressive step for identification, just as EPD's, ratios, and on back in time to the methodology utilized in the formation of breeds via differing degrees of inbreeding. History records that Hugh Watson only registered about a dozen animals in his many years and after he died his wife burned his records. Some things in life never change and so often things have to get worse before they get better lest we become complacent. There is nothing wrong with being complacent but times change and competition is unrelenting. Competition drives and can lead to desperation for survival and thusly this is how progress evolves but not without many costs. We all know this but I have had to remind myself often to keep things in perspective.

In Gavin’s direction, genomics could speed up generation interval by three years, in my direction it could speed generation interval up to twenty years (longevity and the associated factors that's needed to reach it). "


LL can you expand on how you have used DNA testing and some of the lessons learned? The DNA genomic profile is opening another chapter in cattle breeding and hopefully allow us to identify low heritable traits and select for them. I will have calves on the ground in the near future from 2 bulls that I ran genomic profiles on last year. I am interested in tenderness, docility and bw measures. I had a cow calve several weeks ago whose calf was way out of what was expected for birth weight (114 LBS) and calving ease. The calf was dead and dam ended as a near loss and I would like to prevent this if possible in my herd and my commercial customers herds.

Any and all DNA challenges (defects) need to be identified and managed. You can not manage something if you do not know it exists. Anything seedstock producers can do to prevent abortions, still births and challenge calfs for the commercial sector is a high priority in my view.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:09 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
"I don't know what you thought when you were here for the visit because we never did get up to see the final product on the butte.

Mike, the discussion included snowballs: lightly packed (41/97X), medium packed and hard packed, and longhorns with potential Wagyus. What is the final product of this that you imagine that you'd see on the butte? I know that Dennis has been selecting for a maternal strain. But doesn't the introduction of the other breeds and strains (Pinebank) add a complication of genetic remixing to be sorted? Or am I thinking one strain and Dennis is working on multiple strains? Would strains be sorted by type when the calves are weaned if everything is run together? Just trying to get a mental picture.
I think strains is too concise a word in this case; Dennis is using breeds to accomplish certain goals...not all those breeds or pieces can possibly lead to the same final product. The Longhorn calves were very nice; and very spotted...but most important, 129 live from 130 range calved two year old heifers...immediate goal solved with the tradeoff that always accompanies any selection process...An advantage is having enough to sell in groups; I would call the Longhorns an intermediate product in the process whose genetics may never be included in the final product...there can be more than one final product; the Wagyu crosses from heifers for instance...yelp, you bet I thought, why not Unwanted? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:16 am

patb wrote:
quote from LL

"I have always and will continue to sample my cattle for identification purposes whether for my own personal use or for my customers. DNA is another progressive step for identification, just as EPD's, ratios, and on back in time to the methodology utilized in the formation of breeds via differing degrees of inbreeding. History records that Hugh Watson only registered about a dozen animals in his many years and after he died his wife burned his records. Some things in life never change and so often things have to get worse before they get better lest we become complacent. There is nothing wrong with being complacent but times change and competition is unrelenting. Competition drives and can lead to desperation for survival and thusly this is how progress evolves but not without many costs. We all know this but I have had to remind myself often to keep things in perspective.

In Gavin’s direction, genomics could speed up generation interval by three years, in my direction it could speed generation interval up to twenty years (longevity and the associated factors that's needed to reach it). "


LL can you expand on how you have used DNA testing and some of the lessons learned? The DNA genomic profile is opening another chapter in cattle breeding and hopefully allow us to identify low heritable traits and select for them. I will have calves on the ground in the near future from 2 bulls that I ran genomic profiles on last year. I am interested in tenderness, docility and bw measures. I had a cow calve several weeks ago whose calf was way out of what was expected for birth weight (114 LBS) and calving ease. The calf was dead and dam ended as a near loss and I would like to prevent this if possible in my herd and my commercial customers herds.

Any and all DNA challenges (defects) need to be identified and managed. You can not manage something if you do not know it exists. Anything seedstock producers can do to prevent abortions, still births and challenge calfs for the commercial sector is a high priority in my view.
I disagree Pat; ANYTHING is too inclusive; only when the benefits are commensurate with the costs
is any test logical; you likely could test for everything availiable, and still have these occurences from orgins outside genetics. I have come to accept imperfection as a cost of business; those who want perfection need to breed it for themselves instead of expecting to buy it...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:40 am

mike I will give you "anything" is a little much. I do not expect perfect cattle but if you can reduce the chance of challenges by testing it is worth it in my opinion. I look at testing as type of insurance similiar to fire insurance you pray you never need it but it can save you if there is a challenge.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:37 am

Quote :
I look at testing as type of insurance similiar to fire insurance you pray you never need it but it can save you if there is a challenge

Pat,

If the risk of fire is so great and other things like that then how could the insurance companies ever stay in business? THey would be paying out more money than they are taking in.
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PostSubject: From LL   Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:08 am

I just want to offer some quick general ideas to help guide your own thinking by using myself as the example. There are no simple quick answers to confusement, I have stated it took me many years to simplify what we all tend to make so complicated. DNA will not solve very many problems, breeders solve problems. By identifying them, every one of us needs the latitude and freedom to do just that, not to have our cattle condemned for identifying them just because some people have such lofty expectations. I have told many that my objective is that if I never do more than just reduce problems, that is one hell of an accomplishment. EPD's are a wonderful tool that should have taught us many things. When I talk about human behavior, I get very frustrated that we have used EPD to create more problems than the benefits provided from that genotypic measure.

We all try to solve problems, but when I finally realized that during that process, the track record of the industry is that in reality we have created problems faster than we can fix them. I have often said I am going upstream, what I really mean is I am going in reverse to the industry momemtum. I certainly don't want anyone to think that I think I'm so damn smart or smug for doing this. My confusement stemmed from always trying to play catch up. The Tru Line concept was and is a way we could manage, not eliminate, our problems while improving our benefits, the basic bottom line theme is how to manage or control the benefits of heterosis by harnessing hybrid power, simply a means to produce the most possible from the least possible....and that includes with the least problems, not without problems.

It starts with the cow, not the consumer. When Dennis said the cow is more important than all the "terminal crap", that came about simply because he had to experience it first and then and only then can we work up. It is all very simple, it just takes time, one step at a time, slowly but surely Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:14 am

The AAA and Insurance, a definite match made somewhere.... Razz Smile

No need to pile on here as it was just an example but for me it leads to a deeper set frame of mind.

I’ve heard is said the easiest think in the world to sell is fear (an unpleasant feeling of anxiety or apprehension caused by presence or anticipation of danger).

The interesting thing for me, is this group gives me courage (the ability to face danger, difficulty, pain or uncertainty without being overcome by fear)....
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:02 pm

Quote :
If the risk of fire is so great and other things like that then how could the insurance companies ever stay in business? THey would be paying out more money than they are taking in.

Mark, the companies size up the potential client, figure the risk factors, turn some potential customers away and adjust payments according to risk. So, if Pat starts off with a mixed bag of cattle and a tank full of mainline companies bull semen, his need to test is more useful than if he linebreeds or creates a strain. The closer breeding is a help but not a cure. Then if there are particular genes of interest, test away if it will improve the animals. A lot of testing in the general registered business seems to be to chase a unique feature, much like Larry's discussion of the misuse of EPDs. In the linking o insurance clients to cattle, part of the problem has been that the breeds have not had clients turned away with "high risk factors" such as non-traditional blood types and other things that have been swept under the rug. But that is history. And I do not understand the joy that some folks apparently get out of finding another defect. It is almost a fad.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:11 pm

I have a closed herd to live animal imports this was brought on by a dairy replacement calf that introduced a new type of scours during the worst weather for it. We lost seven calfs from a herd of 50 in 24 hours and several others later plus all the vet bills. That hurts the bottom line pretty good. If I can reduce my exposure to a genetic defect by testing I am money ahead. With a limited number of cattle/female lines to work with, genetic challenges become a major concern and possible derailment of my program. I will need to bring in new genetics via AI to keep the herd from becoming too inbred. In time all animals will trace back to the 7 founding cows as the natural sires are home raised. The genomic testing is to see where I stand for certian traits like tenderness. Why risk increasing the freqency of a testable defect in your herd and wasting years of time before you discover it?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:23 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
I look at testing as type of insurance similiar to fire insurance you pray you never need it but it can save you if there is a challenge

Pat,

If the risk of fire is so great and other things like that then how could the insurance companies ever stay in business? THey would be paying out more money than they are taking in.

Do you have insurance for your business, home and life? Do you have a smoke or carbon dioxide detector in your home or business? Do you vacinnate your cows or calfs to reduce the risk of dieing? Testing is a way to reduce your risk for known genetic challenges and possible loss. There will always be genetic challenges as that is natures way but they can be managed if you can identify them and test for them. Testing is just another tool to be used in managing your cattle.
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:00 pm

Pat, not to be a total smart a$$, but a better way is to keep enough cash on reserve to weather a bad year or two. That is the way commercial producers have to do it. If some junk presents itself, sell it by the pound and move on.

Charles
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:25 pm

Having a closed herd has benefits like less exposure to disease. I don't vaccinate or treat the herd for anything...I treat individuals, then sell them and that is rare now after only ten years. I don't see the need for 'new blood' unless you are looking to make an outlier...do like Mr. Fallon said, use a bull from a different cow/cow line each year. I sell meat, not seedstock, so I don't have to produce a look that someone else would like...and that is a great burden not to have.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:03 pm

Charles wrote:
Pat, not to be a total smart a$$, but a better way is to keep enough cash on reserve to weather a bad year or two. That is the way commercial producers have to do it. If some junk presents itself, sell it by the pound and move on.

Charles

Charles only difference between my operation and commercial operations in my area is that I manage my pastures better and I have the added expense of registering animals. It is my responsibility as a seedstock supplier to supply my customers with cattle with as few challenges as possible. If you have read my past posts you would know that I sell a large portion of my calf crop as natural grassfed heavy weight feeders. The few bulls I sell a year are a by product of the feeder calf business.

A dead calf adds nothing to the bottomline at the end of the year.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:27 pm

Quote :
I have a closed herd to live animal imports this was brought on by a dairy replacement calf that introduced a new type of scours during the worst weather for it. We lost seven calfs from a herd of 50 in 24 hours and several others later plus all the vet bills. That hurts the bottom line pretty good. If I can reduce my exposure to a genetic defect by testing I am money ahead. With a limited number of cattle/female lines to work with, genetic challenges become a major concern and possible derailment of my program. I will need to bring in new genetics via AI to keep the herd from becoming too inbred. In time all animals will trace back to the 7 founding cows as the natural sires are home raised. The genomic testing is to see where I stand for certian traits like tenderness. Why risk increasing the freqency of a testable defect in your herd and wasting years of time before you discover it?

What do you do if you test for a gene and find out that all of your cows have a problem? A lot of lines have gone kerplunk over the years. I don't think that you're saying that you're testing for scours, you are just saying that the incident caused you to close your herd? Are you developing a paternal herd so that tenderness is a priority?
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:30 pm

Quote :
Having a closed herd has benefits like less exposure to disease. I don't vaccinate or treat the herd for anything

You must be in an area of the country where there are no deer or wild hogs. That would be nice.
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:45 pm

Patb, I have read all your posts and I am sorry if I offended you, that is not my intention. But I have to ask, if grassfed feeders are your main business, why do you worry about registering them insurance, testing and such? From practical experience, you need 4 things in this business, some cattle and an environment to keep them, a stock trailer to get them to market, a backhoe for the few that don't make it, some cash reserve when you have to use the backhoe.

Charles
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:05 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Having a closed herd has benefits like less exposure to disease. I don't vaccinate or treat the herd for anything

You must be in an area of the country where there are no deer or wild hogs. That would be nice.

No wild hogs plenty of deer and occasional moose.

eddiem quote "What do you do if you test for a gene and find out that all of your cows have a problem? A lot of lines have gone kerplunk over the years. I don't think that you're saying that you're testing for scours, you are just saying that the incident caused you to close your herd? Are you developing a paternal herd so that tenderness is a priority?"

I am testing bull candidates for AM/NH/CA/D2 and OS (test not recognized by AAA). It is cheaper to test the bull candidates then test all the females for challenge list. I believe we have none of the listed challenges but I want to make sure none of the bulls do. If the sire is clean then you will have no affected calfs with these challenges. Genomic profile is for tenderness, docility and bw the other traits will be monitor an maybe used at a latter time. If I have a lethal defect challenge later then I will have deal with then. The herd is selected for efficient forage converters who raise acceptable replacements and feeder calfs on the resources available. The herd was closed live animal inports to reduce the risk of importation of disease or new pathogens.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:17 pm

patb wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Having a closed herd has benefits like less exposure to disease. I don't vaccinate or treat the herd for anything

You must be in an area of the country where there are no deer or wild hogs. That would be nice.

No wild hogs plenty of deer and occasional moose.

eddiem quote "What do you do if you test for a gene and find out that all of your cows have a problem? A lot of lines have gone kerplunk over the years. I don't think that you're saying that you're testing for scours, you are just saying that the incident caused you to close your herd? Are you developing a paternal herd so that tenderness is a priority?"

I am testing bull candidates for AM/NH/CA/D2 and OS (test not recognized by AAA). It is cheaper to test the bull candidates then test all the females for challenge list. I believe we have none of the listed challenges but I want to make sure none of the bulls do. If the sire is clean then you will have no affected calfs with these challenges. Genomic profile is for tenderness, docility and bw the other traits will be monitor an maybe used at a latter time. If I have a lethal defect challenge later then I will have deal with then. The herd is selected for efficient forage converters who raise acceptable replacements and feeder calfs on the resources available. The herd was closed live animal inports to reduce the risk of importation of disease or new pathogens.
I find it rather ironic that your greatest source of contamination is your semen tank...
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:28 pm

Charles wrote:
Patb, I have read all your posts and I am sorry if I offended you, that is not my intention. But I have to ask, if grassfed feeders are your main business, why do you worry about registering them insurance, testing and such? From practical experience, you need 4 things in this business, some cattle and an environment to keep them, a stock trailer to get them to market, a backhoe for the few that don't make it, some cash reserve when you have to use the backhoe.

Charles

I have registered cattle because I enjoy having registered cattle not because the papers are worth alot. I am testing for defects because I hate having dead or challenge calfs and do not want to pass on challenges to customers if I can prevent it. As far as I know my herd is clean of defects except 2 cows who may be carriers of NH. They raise a good feeder calf every year and will stay untill their usefull life is done. The genomic testing is for my own personal interest and if it can improve my cattle all the better. I sell natural grassfed feeders because they are easier to sell and return more money for time spent than breeding stock in my area. I sell a few bulls a year to fellow feeder producers and small pasture to freezer operations. You do not need a stock trailer or backhoe in the cattle business. The buyer is responsible for trucking or hire it done either is cheaper than owning a trailer. Have several people that will pick up deceased animals for coyote bait or feed their large cats. A backhoe would be nice for alot other projects.
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