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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:25 am

Bob H wrote:
It appears to me that it depends on what your goals are. If your goals are to be sustainable then why would you not use the bulls that have given you the best females until they cannot give you anymore. If your goals are to reach for the stars every year then change as often as you like and remember that you harvest what you have sown. Around this outfit change will be awful slow and sustainable. Bob H

reaching for the stars requires fumbling around in the dark too often...
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:33 am

The cow that can get through the winter on snowballs and rabbit turds is probably a futile attempt at evolution.

I see the word efficiency used describing cowherds a lot, and I never see a shred of real proof {like how many pounds did she eat this lactation?}...and if the "tough environment, efficiency promoters" talk long enough, I usually find proof of their exaggeration tendencies...
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:42 pm

Bootheel wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
thought over the past week about Falloon`s comment that if you are using the same bull this year that you used last year that you can`t be making progress...certainly, if change is the goal, very true... and I thought maybe even that was true if you were stabalizing a type...BUT, if prepotency of a type is a goal, you may well be using the same bull you used 5 years ago ???

So this year the bull is out of a 8 year old cow, and next year an 11 year old. Progress? I think not, just changey, progressy, markety stuff, in a tidy new package, that may actually have some integrity. But then again, change is always good. Newer is always better. This years calves are always the best. Yours are never as good as mine. His are never as good as yours. Type never means as much as hype.


Bootheel, always never right


from Gavin...

Mike

Bootheals reply

With the randomising of genes at the moment of conception any cow of any age can and does come up with a superior animal. Admitally if you are building in high performing genes into your population the youinger cows just have more chance of coming up with a top bull calf.

Remember that the females are some generations behind the bulls because you are using the total drop of females whereas you are using only the very top of the very few bulls that you use and are changing each year.

We can and do recover bulls even some old bulls, we have recovered an old bull by our Waigroup 1/80 who progeny performance is right up the top of all N.Z bulls out of differently bred cows. The progeny of this bull will tell us many things. Waigroup 1/80 was the bull who appeared to have come top of that American trial that Henry Gardner ran and although he is totally Pinebank bred we have little of his genes.

Hope that you can understand this

Happy Xmas to Mr Bootheal and to all your readers form NZ

Regards

Gavin

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:23 pm

Dylan, you are in a very unique and prestigous position that allows you to use anything you please, from me or anyone else. I must warn you that I am now a healer though, as oppossed to a heeler. This has led to a bit of an identity crisis on my part, so it may take me awhile to work through this newfound change. Either way, don't put too much faith in either of my identities, as neither holds much significance, to anything of significance. I do get you though Dylan, and a snowball is a snowball, and a turd is turd, but sometimes crap is more metaphorical in context, and not to be confused with turds. Henceforth, I seldom use the terms, turds, turd, or turdy, and lend myself to various forms and usage of crap, as it is more poetic. I hope this clears things up for any of your students or adversaries Mr. Biggs.


As for Mr. Falloon's comments, they are appreciated from a peon of insignifcance, such as myself. I like your little newsletters, philosophies, and participation. The written form of communication is poor at best, sometimes, and easily misconstrued by the moods and humors of the readership. Sometimes I feel like a smart alec, sarcastic, pessimistic, Ecclesiastes influenced wackjob, feeling that there is really nothing new under the Sun. But I do think your safeguards in your program, make it somewhat different than most, using the newest and brightest, making so called progress, but I am not entirely convinced one way or the other, that there is much difference in selecting for change, be it slow or fast.


Bootheel
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:09 pm

mike asked Gavin...
would it be correct in your opinion that culling can, even should be heavy in the breeding herds; a cost absorbed by the breeder, passed on to commercial producers in the price of breeding bulls; but the commercial herds must have female consistency because they cannot afford culling?

Gavin replied
Mike

All improvement come from the bull. The cow is just a gestation medium. It is only necessary to cull females as you can replace them with hopefully superior heifers. Your latest drop . Remember that all the selection pressure is coming from the bulls because you are using so few of them. But you require so many cows. The more cows you have the faster progress you can make….. Just because you have more chance of coming up with an “outliner bull”. And your variation should be higher..

You Rancher put too much emphasis on cows. It is the bull where you make your progress. Your cow has only half the genes in one calf but if you have a two sire herd then all the calves represent half of the bulls genes in every calf.

Do not tear your cow herd up. She represents all your selection, has stood up to your management and environment which the bull if you are buying bulls may not. Think about it

Happy Xmas

Gavin






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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:44 am

Quote :
With the randomising of genes at the moment of conception any cow of any age can and does come up with a superior animal.


But how many per lifetime? Full bell curve or peas in a pod? I prefer peas.

Quote :
Admitally if you are building in high performing genes into your population the youinger cows just have more chance of coming up with a top bull calf.

How many years of culling and selecting are on the bottom side before it becomes evident and useful? Otherwise, why do it?

Quote :
Remember that the females are some generations behind the bulls because you are using the total drop of females whereas you are using only the very top of the very few bulls that you use and are changing each year.

So, two generations back makes them inferior? Or three? Is it worth the never ending culling and selecting to always be "behind"?

Quote :
We can and do recover bulls even some old bulls, we have recovered an old bull by our Waigroup 1/80 who progeny performance is right up the top of all N.Z bulls out of differently bred cows. The progeny of this bull will tell us many things.

Don't the existing calves from another herd tell you what you will rediscover in your own herd?

Quote :
Waigroup 1/80 was the bull who appeared to have come top of that American trial that Henry Gardner ran and although he is totally Pinebank bred we have little of his genes.

So, it's all about the carcass?
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knabe



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:08 am

MKeeney wrote:
thought over the past week about Falloon`s comment that if you are using the same bull this year that you used last year that you can`t be making progress...certainly, if change is the goal, very true... and I thought maybe even that was true if you were stabalizing a type...BUT, if prepotency of a type is a goal, you may well be using the same bull you used 5 years ago ???

from an introgression of marker standpoint, it's stupid to keep changing to a bull you don't have the marker info on if the one you used has them and you didn't get the combination desired in last year's crop.
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:24 pm

December 17th was THEE STABILIZER DAY....it was also the day that my wife and I celebrated our 56th wedding anniversary. On that special day, especially since Betty (formerly Elizabeth Ruth Kelly) was awarded the KC "Cattle Breeder Wife of the Year", to enhance her new image I suggested we get one of those reverse mortgages on our house, charter a plane and fly to Colorado and buy ourselves the best STABILIZER bull for sale in America to create a little excitement in our everyday lives......and besides that, with his PROVEN unique $Profit Index, it would sure help offset Barack's planned reduction in our Social Security benefits.




Simply known as "The Betty" by her closest friends, or "Grammy" by her progeny, DV's latest artistry depicts her exciting response to "ole pops" or "papa tractor's" proposition ! Betty IS my stabilizer, who has always had an exceptionally good instinctive woman's intuition about people, after all she chose me Smile .......but conversely, I am one of those rare twigged persons who understands instinctively about ALL things....her overall perspectives about things are limited somewhat by her inherent kind, caring, just mind your own business personality. So to enhance her newly awarded image, I knew it was going to be quite a challenge to convince her that she would enjoy being exposed to all the normal abnormalities out there in the big time "cattle breeding world".....I even told her that after our joint successful purchase of the best bull in America, she might even be dubbed "Thee Queen Elizabeth Bull Buyer of the Day" ..... that she could finally be a somebody, beloved by all marketeers shouting long live the Queen.




Well, after 56 years there's not too much left to get her excited about anymore.....she prefers shopping for bargains rather than wasting money on bulls. Disappointed, all we did was break out that free 10 yr old unopened gifted bottle of Kentucky bourbon.... still unopened, she argued with the politics on TV eating a roman nougat from her self-gifted box of assorted chocolates.....and I went down into my smoking allowed room eating sour grapes and watched all the live show action on KC.....my free self-gifted E-cigarette Kit plus 9.99 S&H hadn't arrived yet.....I need to prepare myself so I can still "smoke" when it's my turn to be in the nursing home.

I saw where the reknown Fescue Whiskers, who always enjoys stirring the pot, countered that the "LCC best bull in America" was just another bull. Jack said that the Leachman proven unique profit index of $11,429 on this bull is.....Ah, promotion, commotion, repulsion. Of course that stirred our academic Data Fiend to ask "what data would you collect to prove he is the best in the world?" Fescue sitting at the desk of mission control replied "just the 'good data' that would make him best in the world at something...patterned after the way the studs use EPDS.. " . And with all the recent focus on efficiency, D Biggs interjected with "the cow that can get through the winter on snowballs and rabbit turds is probably a futile attempt at evolution.... cattle have an evolutionary handicap that is unlikely to be made up". More sour grapes.

Being the twigged man that I am, my Queen Elizabeth for Every Day thinks she is very efficient driving 50 miles just to cash in a $2.00 savings coupon on a lb. of $8.00 coffee. I didn't marry her for her frugality, but for her personal integrity, gentleness and virtuous purity, thee essential measures of motherhood.....well, maybe sexual appeal played a teeny weiny role Smile . It should be no surprise that I would choose the applicable functional motherhood qualities in a beef cow.....especially after my youthful exposure to those a little on the trashy side.

It is plain to see that the ordinary lady DV illustrated sitting on the park bench is the marryin' kind, one with tolerance while I'm all into myself as I sit there calmly explaining the historic facts of mating the best to the best with comparative data......that I understand the reasons for the common registered society's hypocrisy. But like DF, I'd rather ask questions than answer them. Why do we have this hypocritical apathetic attitude towards refining breed purity; why are we always looking for the next outcross; why do our cattle have an evolutionary handicap ?

THE HISTORIC EVOLUTION OF ANGUS BREED PURITY !!!!!
NOW DID YA EVER HEAR OR SEE SUCH SYMMETRY IN YOUR LIFE

As the three blind A's feelin' all the parts of an average modern Angus COW not one of them has seen!
The disputants rail on 'n on in utter ignorance of what each other mean
Each in his own opinion disputed loud and long
Each was partly in the right but all were in the wrong !
"Bootheel, always all never right" is all that's ever seen

Experienced and weary from putting out wildfires ignited by the stormy winds of change, the Fire Chief of the Two Dot Bridge is now focused more on prevention. The Chief has developed his uncanny clairvoyant capability to see the reality of the causes. To help develop our own clairvoyance, via email I received his juxtapositional illustration of the AVERAGE MODERN REGISTERED ANGUS COW. She is a symbolic representation who consists of various combinations of her extreme ancestoral genes who randomly lurk in the dark often reappearing in the light all too often. Perhaps the Chief's artistic model could appropriately be entitled the creation of "super monstigerels (latin name for monster girls)"..... a transformer artfully designed to serve all people for all things (in "utter ignorance" a breed to serve every need, "always never right") .




From my first quick observation, I noticed the best bull in America must've inherited his topline from DV's clairvoyant perception of the genetic content of modern registered Angus cows.....yes DF, proven by the known ancestoral heritage. And yes, a twigged man also knows all about this heritage thing....as proof in 1998 I was awarded an official certificate designating me as a member of the elite Angus Heritage Foundation for major contributions to the improvement and advancement of the Angus breed. These major contributions were my creation of "super trait leaders" back in the 70's assembled from "trait leaders" who damned near ruined the basic functionality of my cow herd as well as others.

To wit, I commissioned Dennis to illustrate the good, bad and ugly from some of my award winning creations ("not one of them has seen") when I crossed a twice Denver Champion on daughters from the top bulls out of one of the highest performance, data filled, acclaimed herds in America. Exploiting heterosis "is always in the right", these crossed patriotic daughters were dynamite..... with short fuses who exploded at calving time walking around the pasture bellowing like bulls wondering what they were supposed to do with that new little animal trying to suckle and couldn't.....I just wasn't willin' to sacrifice my life to help others......it wasn't my fault they starved, it was just one of those evolutionary handicaps !



To wit, as further proof of the value of academia sponsored data collection, in 1987 I was awarded the WBCIA Seedstock Producer of the Year for my heretofore mentioned super creations.....but I lost out on the competitive national BCIA level coming in second to Henry Gardiner, the beloved academia follower and winner, a growing master at creating super GAR trait leaders in nearly every measured category, derived from applied academia sponsored measured data collection resulting in multi-million dollar sales. It works...... however.....I only had created bulls that were at the top in only one of three categores, one for growth, one for marbling and one for maternal EBV. I don't know if marbling is correlated to marble bone disease or not but there was a bunch of it in the Angus breed back in those days "that not one of them had seen". One of my more memorable comments I heard during the last few years after condemnation of some of these super GAR cattle was that the survivors will be worth twice as much. More sour grapes.

I must admit I have become ashamed of all my awards, derived from my own genetic ignorance. Much to my chagrin, DV's clairvoyant illustrations are not just humorous symbolism, the first one is a representative genetic composite of the registered Angus population, the skeletons in the closet are in fact very real. I couldn't help but associate DV's illuminating artistry with the content of MK's KC topic "Another Approach" for maternalizing composite formation. While Jack said they'll have a breed of Smuckshit Duns in 150 years, I thought Good Lord, rather than our Ag institutions of higher learning delivering us from "utter ignorance", they lead us down these primrose paths. The epitome of this was when CSU jointly marketed their bulls with LCC. More sour grapes.

And so, as an exercise for those still in grade school, take your paint sets and color DV's illustrations. Color each mainstream trait craze a different color. For those who are too young to have experienced these fashionable selection cycles, on the first cow you might begin with the hip height craze, intermixed with the mean lean machine craze, the milk craze moving forward to the performance (capacity) trait leader craze, then to the fleshing ease, more weight on a smaller frame craze causing extreme stress on feet, moving on up to the non-sexual distinction of the grass fat craze, steer heads with a brown swiss ear and scur.

When you finish that task and still believe we can sort thru this continual mixture of a massive assortment of genes and breed pure continuity in a generation or two with the best bulls in America, you need to know that their value would certainly pay off our national debt. The AAA, initially formed to preserve the purity of the breed, must be very proud of their progressive handiwork, handing out trophies and awards to those who have assembled the most rare black super monstigerels......do you suppose it is the devil that make them do it ? Smile Woe be it for all those commercial producers who remain so loyal to all those dedicated fire and ice, registered, psuedo-purebred breeders who ultimately finance all that the AAA does. I do want to thank those AAA members who have their head up their ass for reducing the competition among those of us whose objective is.......

To develop parent stock that can systematically produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor, give the highest possible and longest lasting returns to the beef producers

LL developing a distaste for sour grapes, searching for seedless sweet ones
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:23 pm

Oh Larry....I'm glad to hear that Betty's still hot for you after 56 years. Did she by any chance have a bowl of oatmeal and a cup of coffee for breakfast the other day?

TD
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:34 pm

Our mission, should you choose to join us, is to take all these sour grapes, and smash and blend them into some mighy fine wine...while singing...
Joy to the World Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:48 am

W.T wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
WT,
I`m so very pleased to ignorantly learn, even late in life, that there is another word for our kind rather than asshole...a name I had no problem with{ignorance is bliss} until I learned there is an alternative ... Smile

Definition of POLEMIC

1a : an aggressive attack on or refutation of the opinions or principles of another b : the art or practice of disputation or controversy —usually used in plural but singular or plural in construction

Ok mike so we are both POLEMIC..... some how that just is too lackluster... I just don't feel the strength in the word.. Now Asshole has a bite to it and is far easier to remember, and that has some meaning to it. Of course POLEMIC does sound far gentelier and some people would like that better. But I am with you I have become comfortable with asshole over the years, and I don't have to retrain anyone.. cheers cheers Now answer the dam question can i sample the wine??? drunken drunken

anyone that helps make the wine, can sample the wine, even the unfinished as we work; for afterall, the process has just begun; we`re going to live on juice a long time before we get the wine made...but those who won`t put their feet into the grape pile and feel the juice between their toes, I have little time or hope for....and those that wince because the interim product doesn`t suit their fancy will soon depart...this wine making process will be very sobering instead of the current drunkeness to the realities of genetic selection...

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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:31 pm

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
December 17th was THEE STABILIZER DAY....it was also the day that my wife and I celebrated our 56th wedding anniversary. On that special day, especially since Betty (formerly Elizabeth Ruth Kelly) was awarded the KC "Cattle Breeder Wife of the Year", to enhance her new image I suggested we get one of those reverse mortgages on our house, charter a plane and fly to Colorado and buy ourselves the best STABILIZER bull for sale in America to create a little excitement in our everyday lives......and besides that, with his PROVEN unique $Profit Index, it would sure help offset Barack's planned reduction in our Social Security benefits.




Simply known as "The Betty" by her closest friends, or "Grammy" by her progeny, DV's latest artistry depicts her exciting response to "ole pops" or "papa tractor's" proposition ! Betty IS my stabilizer, who has always had an exceptionally good instinctive woman's intuition about people, after all she chose me Smile .......but conversely, I am one of those rare twigged persons who understands instinctively about ALL things....her overall perspectives about things are limited somewhat by her inherent kind, caring, just mind your own business personality. So to enhance her newly awarded image, I knew it was going to be quite a challenge to convince her that she would enjoy being exposed to all the normal abnormalities out there in the big time "cattle breeding world".....I even told her that after our joint successful purchase of the best bull in America, she might even be dubbed "Thee Queen Elizabeth Bull Buyer of the Day" ..... that she could finally be a somebody, beloved by all marketeers shouting long live the Queen.




Well, after 56 years there's not too much left to get her excited about anymore.....she prefers shopping for bargains rather than wasting money on bulls. Disappointed, all we did was break out that free 10 yr old unopened gifted bottle of Kentucky bourbon.... still unopened, she argued with the politics on TV eating a roman nougat from her self-gifted box of assorted chocolates.....and I went down into my smoking allowed room eating sour grapes and watched all the live show action on KC.....my free self-gifted E-cigarette Kit plus 9.99 S&H hadn't arrived yet.....I need to prepare myself so I can still "smoke" when it's my turn to be in the nursing home.

I saw where the reknown Fescue Whiskers, who always enjoys stirring the pot, countered that the "LCC best bull in America" was just another bull. Jack said that the Leachman proven unique profit index of $11,429 on this bull is.....Ah, promotion, commotion, repulsion. Of course that stirred our academic Data Fiend to ask "what data would you collect to prove he is the best in the world?" Fescue sitting at the desk of mission control replied "just the 'good data' that would make him best in the world at something...patterned after the way the studs use EPDS.. " . And with all the recent focus on efficiency, D Biggs interjected with "the cow that can get through the winter on snowballs and rabbit turds is probably a futile attempt at evolution.... cattle have an evolutionary handicap that is unlikely to be made up". More sour grapes.

Being the twigged man that I am, my Queen Elizabeth for Every Day thinks she is very efficient driving 50 miles just to cash in a $2.00 savings coupon on a lb. of $8.00 coffee. I didn't marry her for her frugality, but for her personal integrity, gentleness and virtuous purity, thee essential measures of motherhood.....well, maybe sexual appeal played a teeny weiny role Smile . It should be no surprise that I would choose the applicable functional motherhood qualities in a beef cow.....especially after my youthful exposure to those a little on the trashy side.

It is plain to see that the ordinary lady DV illustrated sitting on the park bench is the marryin' kind, one with tolerance while I'm all into myself as I sit there calmly explaining the historic facts of mating the best to the best with comparative data......that I understand the reasons for the common registered society's hypocrisy. But like DF, I'd rather ask questions than answer them. Why do we have this hypocritical apathetic attitude towards refining breed purity; why are we always looking for the next outcross; why do our cattle have an evolutionary handicap ?

THE HISTORIC EVOLUTION OF ANGUS BREED PURITY !!!!!
NOW DID YA EVER HEAR OR SEE SUCH SYMMETRY IN YOUR LIFE

As the three blind A's feelin' all the parts of an average modern Angus COW not one of them has seen!
The disputants rail on 'n on in utter ignorance of what each other mean
Each in his own opinion disputed loud and long
Each was partly in the right but all were in the wrong !
"Bootheel, always all never right" is all that's ever seen

Experienced and weary from putting out wildfires ignited by the stormy winds of change, the Fire Chief of the Two Dot Bridge is now focused more on prevention. The Chief has developed his uncanny clairvoyant capability to see the reality of the causes. To help develop our own clairvoyance, via email I received his juxtapositional illustration of the AVERAGE MODERN REGISTERED ANGUS COW. She is a symbolic representation who consists of various combinations of her extreme ancestoral genes who randomly lurk in the dark often reappearing in the light all too often. Perhaps the Chief's artistic model could appropriately be entitled the creation of "super monstigerels (latin name for monster girls)"..... a transformer artfully designed to serve all people for all things (in "utter ignorance" a breed to serve every need, "always never right") .




From my first quick observation, I noticed the best bull in America must've inherited his topline from DV's clairvoyant perception of the genetic content of modern registered Angus cows.....yes DF, proven by the known ancestoral heritage. And yes, a twigged man also knows all about this heritage thing....as proof in 1998 I was awarded an official certificate designating me as a member of the elite Angus Heritage Foundation for major contributions to the improvement and advancement of the Angus breed. These major contributions were my creation of "super trait leaders" back in the 70's assembled from "trait leaders" who damned near ruined the basic functionality of my cow herd as well as others.

To wit, I commissioned Dennis to illustrate the good, bad and ugly from some of my award winning creations ("not one of them has seen") when I crossed a twice Denver Champion on daughters from the top bulls out of one of the highest performance, data filled, acclaimed herds in America. Exploiting heterosis "is always in the right", these crossed patriotic daughters were dynamite..... with short fuses who exploded at calving time walking around the pasture bellowing like bulls wondering what they were supposed to do with that new little animal trying to suckle and couldn't.....I just wasn't willin' to sacrifice my life to help others......it wasn't my fault they starved, it was just one of those evolutionary handicaps !



To wit, as further proof of the value of academia sponsored data collection, in 1987 I was awarded the WBCIA Seedstock Producer of the Year for my heretofore mentioned super creations.....but I lost out on the competitive national BCIA level coming in second to Henry Gardiner, the beloved academia follower and winner, a growing master at creating super GAR trait leaders in nearly every measured category, derived from applied academia sponsored measured data collection resulting in multi-million dollar sales. It works...... however.....I only had created bulls that were at the top in only one of three categores, one for growth, one for marbling and one for maternal EBV. I don't know if marbling is correlated to marble bone disease or not but there was a bunch of it in the Angus breed back in those days "that not one of them had seen". One of my more memorable comments I heard during the last few years after condemnation of some of these super GAR cattle was that the survivors will be worth twice as much. More sour grapes.

I must admit I have become ashamed of all my awards, derived from my own genetic ignorance. Much to my chagrin, DV's clairvoyant illustrations are not just humorous symbolism, the first one is a representative genetic composite of the registered Angus population, the skeletons in the closet are in fact very real. I couldn't help but associate DV's illuminating artistry with the content of MK's KC topic "Another Approach" for maternalizing composite formation. While Jack said they'll have a breed of Smuckshit Duns in 150 years, I thought Good Lord, rather than our Ag institutions of higher learning delivering us from "utter ignorance", they lead us down these primrose paths. The epitome of this was when CSU jointly marketed their bulls with LCC. More sour grapes.

And so, as an exercise for those still in grade school, take your paint sets and color DV's illustrations. Color each mainstream trait craze a different color. For those who are too young to have experienced these fashionable selection cycles, on the first cow you might begin with the hip height craze, intermixed with the mean lean machine craze, the milk craze moving forward to the performance (capacity) trait leader craze, then to the fleshing ease, more weight on a smaller frame craze causing extreme stress on feet, moving on up to the non-sexual distinction of the grass fat craze, steer heads with a brown swiss ear and scur.

When you finish that task and still believe we can sort thru this continual mixture of a massive assortment of genes and breed pure continuity in a generation or two with the best bulls in America, you need to know that their value would certainly pay off our national debt. The AAA, initially formed to preserve the purity of the breed, must be very proud of their progressive handiwork, handing out trophies and awards to those who have assembled the most rare black super monstigerels......do you suppose it is the devil that make them do it ? Smile Woe be it for all those commercial producers who remain so loyal to all those dedicated fire and ice, registered, psuedo-purebred breeders who ultimately finance all that the AAA does. I do want to thank those AAA members who have their head up their ass for reducing the competition among those of us whose objective is.......

To develop parent stock that can systematically produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor, give the highest possible and longest lasting returns to the beef producers

LL developing a distaste for sour grapes, searching for seedless sweet ones

Larry, the most hearty congratulations to you and Bettty on your 56th wedding anniversary, an accomplishment that is less normal every day in this "normally abnormal" world. Wishing you and Betty the best on your way to your 57th. Very Happy

"Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to, although he leaped with all his strength. As he went away, the fox remarked, 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes.' People who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain would do well to apply this story to themselves."

Speaking of "normal abnormalities", sour grapes assume aspiration. Observations regarding futility, smoke and mirrors used to create the illusion of great value, the incessant pursuit of the fashionable chamelion, and the patroning, institutional self justifying awards are just that. Conceptual critisism based on rational logic relative to the failings of a system " To develop parent stock that can systematically produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor, give the highest possible and longest lasting returns to the beef producers" are not to be confused with failed aspiration to falselhoods. The demonstarted falsehoods artfully and accuratley illustrated by DV are the default results of misguided aspirations, they are not grapes, but they certainly are not sweet symmetrical success.






Unflattering truth is seldom recieved positively.

A topical article:

Telling Hard Truths

“The Hard Truth” is one of those phrases decorating the front of nasty news like a shield. Hard truths accompany tough times, disappointment, economic recession, belt-tightening and pain.

The notion that being candid necessarily inflicts pain is an old one. We do not always relish the truths that we encounter. We don’t want to be told that our body’s emanations are offensive. We don’t want to hear that the investment broker we trusted so much has lost our money. We don’t want to get the news that we have a fatal disease.

Being the bearer of such truths can be as uncomfortable as being the person confronted with them. Those who dispense “hard truths” face the challenge of communicating information deeply upsetting or personally insulting. Can the truth be merciful or must it be brutal?

While facing disagreeable truth is painful, it can also lead to an enlightenment that lifts rather than burdens those affected.

There lies the challenge: how “hard truths” are conveyed has much to do with how they are received. Stating the truth requires courage; candor cannot subsist on deference. But bleak truths revealed gracefully fare better than unvarnished dispensations.

Some hard truths speak a reality terrible but unavoidable: a cancer diagnosis, or news of the unexpected death of a loved one. More subtle relations are required when elderly parents must be told that they can no longer adequately care for themselves, or when it becomes necessary to take their car keys away because they should no longer drive.

Another kind of hard truth is one that we persuade ourselves needs to be said, but that will not necessarily meet a receptive ear—a trickier proposition. Is it useful to inform a person that you don’t want to have anything to do with her? Is it important to declare one’s antipathy to a colleague’s perfume? Is it productive to tell your hated brother-in-law that he is an unwanted guest? Or are these cases where a soupçon of finesse, good manners and discretion can work better than rank honesty?

Against all evidence, we believe in the much-touted notion that nobody wants to injure others; but this meek commonplace is no longer true. In a world of instant opinion, knee-jerk reaction and anonymous snark (with apologies to Lewis Carroll’s innocent fictional animal), hurting other people is now accepted, even applauded behavior.

Snarkenfreude, that combination of snide remark and Schadenfreude (enjoyment of other people’s ill-fortune) thrives on anonymity, the deposit of unspeakable droppings in the comments sections that append the blogosphere. As David Denby said in his 2009 book Snark, snark is a bullying tactic, and as such doesn’t fence for truth so much as front cruelty and cleverness of the vicious kind. It arises from contempt, never a good companion to veracity.

While facing disagreeable truth is painful, it can also lead to an enlightenment that lifts rather than burdens those affected. This clarity is most likely to result if the speaker approaches the truth with the sensitivity and courtesy that its affliction demands. The biggest challenge is getting others to recognize the truth in their own time and context.

The key is invariably respect. Words can pack more wallop than a fist. So instead of coldly announcing a “hard truth,” it is markedly better to address an issue first, listen for feedback second, and then focus on obdurate factuality.

Emily Dickinson said, most memorably:

Tell all the Truth but tell it slant—

Success in Circuit lies

Too bright for our infirm Delight

The Truth’s superb surprise

As Lightning to the Children eased

With explanation kind

The Truth must dazzle gradually

Or every man be blind—

Lest we blind those whose vision we wish to correct, we must be careful with the truth, for it is, indeed, both bright and dangerous.

--------------------------------------

Writer and professor Aritha van Herk, ’76 BA, ’78 MA, lives in Calgary and has a habit of direct and imaginative speech. She was recently inducted as a member of the Alberta Order of Excellence, the province’s highest honour.





DB, thinking that 56 years of marriage must be a result of many carefully chosen and honestly spoken words.


Last edited by Dylan Biggs on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:47 pm

grevious error Dylan Smile ...56 years; they have a daughter 54 I believe, you surely missed the teeny weiny quote Smile Smile it was far too subtle I suspect Smile

Betty and Larry share a unique understanding harmony... that at first impression......awww well, you just need to go down and see for yourself Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:03 pm

some deep stuff up there as well Dylan; I must spend more time than a casual read...
I thought of the " sour grapes fable" today...I once thought a "sour grapes" attitude to be an evil thing, but now I see it as a "happiness" thing...the ability or rationalization to say "god, i`m glad i`m not _____" keeps us sane...while lo and behold, we may keep trying to be _______...but why? just to endure more unhappy people?

When I was younger, so much younger than today,
I never needed anybody's help in any way.
But now these days are gone, I'm not so self assured,
Now I find I've changed my mind and opened up the doors.
Help me KENDRA if you can, Won't you please, please help me, help me, help me, oh. Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:42 am

MKeeney wrote:
grevious error Dylan Smile ...56 years; they have a daughter 54 I believe, you surely missed the teeny weiny quote Smile Smile it was far too subtle I suspect Smile

Betty and Larry share a unique understanding harmony... that at first impression......awww well, you just need to go down and see for yourself Smile

Oops, edit required, serves me right for not taking the time to find my glasses. Embarassed Embarassed

I do! Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:48 am

Dylan Biggs wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
grevious error Dylan Smile ...56 years; they have a daughter 54 I believe, you surely missed the teeny weiny quote Smile Smile it was far too subtle I suspect Smile

Betty and Larry share a unique understanding harmony... that at first impression......awww well, you just need to go down and see for yourself Smile

Oops, serves me right for not taking the time to find my glasses. Embarassed Embarassed

I do! Very Happy Very Happy
when you go down, ask Betty about the driver who cut Larry off on the Brooklyn bridge when they both were "New Yorkers" Smile ... it was the first time she heard him swear...I can still hear her tell it now, sitting in Bogart`s , laughter to always remember... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:04 am

Driving past a ramshackle "farm" yesterday, I saw an old jersey steer that looked exactly like this picture, minus the four udders and high heels. He was "grazing" in what appeared to be a junkyard and was probably going on 4 years old. Okay, so the ears were different too, but other than that, dead ringer. I'm thinking about taking the camera and going back, but by the looks of the place I might get shot. So, if you never hear from me again, that's what happened.

TD, on a mission to bring life to a concept.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:49 pm



"The disputants rail on 'n on in utter ignorance of what each other mean
Each in his own opinion disputed loud and long"
Bout what the cross-eyed Data Fiend has not yet seen
The Ravens view from high above nor hears the caws of his song"
-Anonymous



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:36 pm

Dennis,
what a classic...those who have studied versus those who have seen...
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:01 am

I want to thank you for your special Christmas gift Dylan, there's alot of truth in your post of Dec 22 "Telling the Hard Truth". Betty will be glad you edited it, being married 53 years and having a 54 yr old daughter wouldn't sit very well with her .....she doesn't think it's very funny at all when I tell my grandkids we were married in December and had our first born in March,.............not mentioning the year in between '55 and '57. Smile

I was particularly awestruck by the ending of your post ......

".....With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind—
Lest we blind those whose vision we wish to correct, we must be careful with the truth, for it is, indeed, both bright and dangerous...... "


I laughed thinking that DV's latest revised version should've shown the smokin' raven handin' Mr. Data Fiend a welding helmet. If we use humor carefully in telling the hard truth, I'm also remindful that when we're sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the whole unrelenting truth, I suspect DV symbolized the raven wearin' a DeKalb cap (rather than a Betaseed one) was in reference to DF's comment that

"Even the swine industry and corn companies share data with their customers so the customers can make the best decision"
Being a professional private company, the DeKalb corn, pig and chicken breeders have always shared data when marketing their products......yet DF conveniently omits telling the whole hard truth...... which is, that these private companies do NOT share any data publicly with their customers or competition about the parent's proprietary pedigree/geneology that create these renewable, definitive, predictable results.....they in fact only publicly reveal whether a specific variety is an open pollinated, a 2-way single, a 3-way or a 4-way cross.....and then they compare the renewable GENETIC differences of their FIXED genetic result under side by side identical environmental conditions.

So, this is a far, far cry from an industry filled with wide spread half-truths based on data from incomplete measures, compiled and compared with some psuedo-average among "unfixed" individual's, who are scattered everywhere from many different environmental/management schemes. The existing traditional systems readily accept this mayhem and that is the primary reason I left it. The silence from the thousands who want to follow my path is deafening, there aren't many Bob Howard's in this world, but they are increasing in number Very Happy

There is lots of space left in this barren frontier land outside the registered mainstream. However, when the blind in one eye and cannot see much out of the other in a helter skelter business invade my territory, I can become defensive and a little more than offended like when DF says...

".....This is really the same as MK and LL wondering where we would be today if the industry had adapted Tru-line in the early 1980s when LL wrote about it. If the data had been collected, when AAA releases their Heifer Preg and STAY EPDs, LL and MK might be in the drivers seat. Instead there is the complaint about time. Smile It seems LL and MK aren't getting out of the business, so really the time issue is a non-issue. It is not like they are getting out before the data might be useful to selection of animals that excel in maternal traits and have the data to back it up.... but I wonder what useful data will be collected and shared with customers to prove the animals are "good" Smile

I suppose I could respond by saying I wonder what is the genuine usefulness of the revered temporary data being collected today? But then I would become just another one of those shallow disputants who rail on and on in utter ignorance of what each other mean. While I may be one of the first to apply a TruLine cattle breeding cconcept, I was far from the first to write about it. Systems concepts have been cussed and discussed for decades both inside and outside the scientific world. In 1986 Rick Bourdon wrote several papers demonstrating how increases in profitability have not paralleled increases in production. From my library sized piles of papers and domestic and foreign research data, they can all be summarized into a few short words......THE DIFFICULTY IS IN THE APPLICATION....not by genetic principles, but by the short sighted, self-greed/preservation of human nature. So the only question is how do we improve the system to simplify the application?

I certainly have no ambitions to be in any drivers seat, my AAA driver's license expired in 2003 which was only needed to drive on public thoroughfares. I did forego my job as a garbage collector ...of collecting the litter from traditional academia sponsored public data systems which only prolong the agony. I'm not on any ego trip here, the sum of the whole truth is I just didn't want to be held back, bound and chained to the traditional mainstream. And just in case anyone might be wondering, I am continuing to collect and apply USEFUL data from my summary of 48 years of accumulated data ..... from which it is my sole responsibility to tell any customers nothing but the whole truth as I know it, so help me God .... that is the only proof I can offer from which they can make their best decision to buy or not to buy.... that is the only question. Smile

Now I don't want to blind those whose vision I wish to correct, so following the axiom "the truth must dazzle gradually", I'm telling the hard truth of my early history in the mid 60's as real as I can ......

My collection of data began way back when I met ole Karney Redman
Carryin his measuring tapes to balance every trait
With bell curves 'n numbers 'n charts he could correlate
And substantiate from a median of four and to a top of eight

How gains in one trait would increase the overall size
Twas all clearly explained 'n proven before me very eyes
Why genetic balance must be kept which was to my ignorant surprise
So with the numbers from the wise I set off 'ta gain that bigger prize

There wasn't yet a ten way back then
I chose an eight to gain more weight
An eight cow needed to be twelve inches longer than a four
Three inches wider and six inches taller from the floor

This would give 'em 1.75 more pounds of average daily gain
Increase YW by 630# 'n a mature weight of 1700 pounds to maintain
But feed conversion would more than double
Promising more beef under the hide without any trouble

Birth weight 'n milk were left blank and oh so many more
Ole Karney died afore he could finish up all his measurin's score
Now with ratios to EPD 'n mixed up pedigree from ice to treetops afire
We can choose from everything 'n anything whatever our hearts desire

Now isn't that a variety pak to set before a king
A porridge that includes near every single measured thing
With purple bells and cockle shells no ducks in a row
A cow's the only one ta listen to now says the ole wise crow

The crow has heard the lament of the artificially-inseminated cow
Never been loved but ruthlessly shoved with frozen straws ta' be better by now
There are some things a cow just should not properly say
But the crow says she'd much prefer the old-fashioned way

Twas only one progeny ever since creation
Decreed pure by an immaculate conception
There'll be no expectin' rare miracles from TruLine
It's all just set forth in the known laws of the Divine

LL in the vicinity of moving my camp forward from days long gone by .....attributing the inspiration for this poetic version of the past to Karney Redman who drove around the countryside in his ole beat up VW Beatle peddlin' semen derived from his song....when all were partly in the right, now just resolved to enlighten one or all what's dangerously in the wrong....what's your New Year's Resolution??? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:02 am

I am all for having maternal lines to make the females and terminal lines to make terminal calves. Tell me about your maternal line.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:51 am

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:41 pm

Reaction, Retraction, Reflection.
Retardation, Reincarnation, Revelation.
Resolution, Revolution, Reconciliation.


TD, 12/26/11, facing east.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:17 pm

df wrote:
I am all for having maternal lines to make the females and terminal lines to make terminal calves. Tell me about your maternal line.

An Embarrassment by Wendell Berry

"Do you want to ask
the blessing?"

"No. If you do,
go ahead."

He went ahead:
his prayer dressed up

in Sunday clothes
rose a few feet

and dropped with a soft
thump.

If a lonely soul
did ever cry out

in company its true
outcry to God,

it would be as though
at a sedate party

a man suddenly
removed his clothes

and took his wife
passionately into his arms.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:02 am

DF quote
I am all for having maternal lines to make the females and terminal lines to make terminal calves. Tell me about your maternal line.

Are you a customer, spy or a rustler.... private company's only pass out free caps with their logo to customers Smile

In any event, if you're really actually interested in broadening the views of what you teach, by reading pages one through seventy of "Reflections by LL" you will find the base of my maternal line. The type is lying somewhere in between cows A, B and C to create the X-Strain for fertility, first and foremost for any entity (shown below) . Please allow me to correct your terminology DF,
don'tcha remember terminal lines just can't be,
so we changed the name to PATERNAL lines publicly for all to see,
each to be bred for their own specific functionality.
It's quite a long journey traveling from C to X, and as you can plainly see, selection for the X-cow required X-ray vision, however, with progressive technology today we could use MRI's to be our eyes Smile





But you said, "......there is the complaint about time. It seems LL and MK aren't getting out of the business, so really the time issue is a non-issue....". Oh, really!!! Don'tcha remember my distribution tables, the Wye weaning charts, or can you even imagine the time that is required reducing rather than expanding the zigs and zags to form a straighter more pure " line"....I do have a timepiece that measures time by years that just keeps on ticking away. Lacking DV's artistic talent but with the same mysterious intent, I did prepare a free and crude symbolic chart for your interpretation to describe the trends of my maternal line.. Since you think time is a non-issue, I didn't bother taking the time to put in all the zig and zag dots showing the distributions surrounding the trends, garbage collectors don't care much about those trivial details anyway. Smile



Tommy D, who gets it, added these colorful words

Reaction, Retraction, Reflection
Retardation, Reincarnation, Revelation.
Resolution, Revolution, Reconciliation

It's said that time heals all wounds....so I put alot of time and thought into my posts and I've talked about "time savers" before..... anxious skimmers might've missed that part. For those with short memories, Aricept is a new experimental drug to help memory loss but its very expensive. My wife recommended it to me but it's not covered by Medicare....we can't change the past anyway. If time is our most precious commodity, I figured time savers could be extremely valuable, so I hope every one has time to stop and think about saving time.....wouldn't it be nice if we could recapture time.

But on the other hand, if selective hearing is the problem, I can't tell whether the raven's friendly fiend in DV's revised mysterious edition is wearing ear plugs, hearing aids or vent pipes for overtaxed brains.... I'd guess its the latter. I can't afford to provide free hearing aids, just caps. Betty claims I never hear her so she got me one for free plus a $9,999.99 shipping and handling fee, she's always askin' me if I have it turned on....the truth is the constant beat of the same drum drives me crazy. When I have enquiring visitation, since I do all the talking, it's a handy gadget to loan them to make sure they hear me.....I only use it when I'm in the vicinity of Fescue Whiskers since he does mosta the talkin" Smile




So DF, I'm trying to dazzle the truth more gradually so you can safely take off the welding helmet DV recently gave you....there is not much more to tell you about my maternal line that isn't proprietary, more and more of them are breeding like they look......you have seen a sample of their true genetic level at MK's, what is....is, and they are what they are cautiously represented to be

LL in the vicinity of breedin' cattle with turtle shells to protect them from vultures Smile
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