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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:59 am

Quote from Mr fallon's July 2010 newsletter that I found interesting

"There is an exciting and new project that scientist are working on at the moment where they think it is possible to predict bulls progeny test in their DNA. It is being developed for the Dairy industry for milk production at the moment.If it proves accurate then they will move into the beef industry.

A bull is of no interest as such.It is his progeny that is of total importance. If this can be predicted in a calf it will speed up generation interval by three years and makebull selectionthat much easier and accurate.

A final measure for bull buying. If you are selling grassland beef, then selecting bulls with the alleles for tenderness makes a very big difference in the eating quality of the beef. This was where the reputation for scottish beef came from in Angus. These allels appear to reside only in those cattle that retain their old scottish ancestory. Having eaten both beef the difference is considerable and will win you buyers that will stay with you forever."



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:33 pm

patb wrote:
Since their are several companies providing Genomic profiles, 1 not aligned with the AAA, would you consider sampling some of your cattle for your own personal use and interest?

Since I have listened to Larry discuss this; I`ll give the short, quick answer that he can expand on in due time...DNA is the key to confriming the value of close breeding...research is under way to ascertain if enough genetic information could be obtained at this time to merit the cost...
I welcome the DNA profiling; it`s going to prove what breeders, not promoters, have been saying for a long time about correlations and antagonisms...
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:59 pm

I like KCC = Keeneys Corner of Contrarianism !! Wink Razz Laughing


from Larry

I like KCC = Keeneys Corner of Creativity .... a process of evolution Smile


Last edited by MKeeney on Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:03 pm

Somehow the shoshone genetics and other non mainstream genetics need to be sample and included in the genomic evaluations. The scientist analyzing the data could have some interesting pattern variations on markers. The question will be how does one find markers for low heritablity traits or less glamorous traits. Should the AAA allow testing of non registered animals of angus ancestry?
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:22 pm

I have been reading Larry's comments with a great deal of interest and thought. I just read the latest post for the third time to be sure I understand the points he is making. The comment that leaps out at me the most is the goal "Restore genetic order" I am not sure if there ever was true genetic order . I guess I see it as a great advancement to GAIN genetic order on either side of the pedigree since it is virtually nonexsistant at least in my experiences.

I am really interested in Mr. Fallon's breeding program. I see it as gaining genetic order on the paternal side of the pedigree. I had some doubts as to the effectiveness of using 41/97 until I bred a cow that had been mated to 41/97 to a bull more of her own type. I am not sure that Waigroup cattle have a place in maternal herds since cows are a byproduct of sire breeding. I am thinking that Waigroup bulls mated to tightly packed maternal cows would be a good terminal cross.

Charles
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:12 pm

patb wrote:
Somehow the shoshone genetics and other non mainstream genetics need to be sample and included in the genomic evaluations. The scientist analyzing the data could have some interesting pattern variations on markers. The question will be how does one find markers for low heritablity traits or less glamorous traits. Should the AAA allow testing of non registered animals of angus ancestry?
No, they better not...too likely to show that the non-registered are more purebred than the registered Angus Smile
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:29 pm

MKeeney wrote:
patb wrote:
Somehow the shoshone genetics and other non mainstream genetics need to be sample and included in the genomic evaluations. The scientist analyzing the data could have some interesting pattern variations on markers. The question will be how does one find markers for low heritablity traits or less glamorous traits. Should the AAA allow testing of non registered animals of angus ancestry?
No, they better not...too likely to show that the non-registered are more purebred than the registered Angus Smile

My small understanding of genomics is there are data clusters in different locations for certian traits in a breed. After reading Gavin Fallon's newsletter archive in one setting and combining it with Larry's thoughts one can only wonder what use they would make of the new dna technology to further their programs.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:31 pm

The letter from Dennis is just a great addition to Larry`s creativity that I have come to expect...

"I don't know what you thought when you were here for the visit because we never did get up to see the final product on the butte.

that first line is so powerful that I will quote it often...funny how the registered crowd can never see the forest because they can`t get past critisizing the trees...
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:35 pm

patb wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
patb wrote:
Somehow the shoshone genetics and other non mainstream genetics need to be sample and included in the genomic evaluations. The scientist analyzing the data could have some interesting pattern variations on markers. The question will be how does one find markers for low heritablity traits or less glamorous traits. Should the AAA allow testing of non registered animals of angus ancestry?
No, they better not...too likely to show that the non-registered are more purebred than the registered Angus Smile

My small understanding of genomics is there are data clusters in different locations for certian traits in a breed. After reading Gavin Fallon's newsletter archive in one setting and combining it with Larry's thoughts one can only wonder what use they would make of the new dna technology to further their programs.
first to determine the genotypic variation in the herd, and second to determine the homozygousity of the preferred type so as to use the correct individuals to repeat the preferred characteristics in the next generation...
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:39 pm

Charles wrote:
I have been reading Larry's comments with a great deal of interest and thought. I just read the latest post for the third time to be sure I understand the points he is making. The comment that leaps out at me the most is the goal "Restore genetic order" I am not sure if there ever was true genetic order . I guess I see it as a great advancement to GAIN genetic order on either side of the pedigree since it is virtually nonexsistant at least in my experiences.

I am really interested in Mr. Fallon's breeding program. I see it as gaining genetic order on the paternal side of the pedigree. I had some doubts as to the effectiveness of using 41/97 until I bred a cow that had been mated to 41/97 to a bull more of her own type. I am not sure that Waigroup cattle have a place in maternal herds since cows are a byproduct of sire breeding. I am thinking that Waigroup bulls mated to tightly packed maternal cows would be a good terminal cross.

Charles
good "crossing" thoughts Charles...much akin to Larry`s thinking, but I`m going to disagree with you both a little in due time; for now, all thoughts should be centered on the last "reflection" Smile
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:20 pm

I have to ask you Larry, Since you began your travels down your own road did you ever tell a possible bull customer that was calling you that he will have to call you back later because you did not have time to talk due to you being in the process of AI'ing cows? I saw that happen today in my office. A person called someone to ask about a bull and he was told by the guy on the other end he was too busy to talk because semen was thawing. Kind of funny don't you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:28 pm

Mark Day wrote:
I have to ask you Larry, Since you began your travels down your own road did you ever tell a possible bull customer that was calling you that he will have to call you back later because you did not have time to talk due to you being in the process of AI'ing cows? I saw that happen today in my office. A person called someone to ask about a bull and he was told by the guy on the other end he was too busy to talk because semen was thawing. Kind of funny don't you think?

worse than that; cows are being flushed to make linebred litters for testing and possible Tru-line use...and I looked down in that ole semen tank today and my life flashed in front of me with every straw of semen ; forced once more to live my past stupidities. I started to throw it out on the ground, but I thought, "hell no, I`ll give to some registered breeder to set him back another 15 years behind me; afterall, the registered breeder is now my competition."...but down in that ole tank was some really good bulls for my purposes; Shoshone bulls that I can no longer get certificates on...and I laughed when I thought about I don`t need`em anymore; for my use, the value is in a gene pool; not a pile of paper...my semen tank took on new value without papers...
Mark has been my long time friend and supporter; he`s getting a bull from me this fall on trade to use on 35 cows; I bought his heifer calves last year and they have performed excellent; now let`s see if they make cows. Anyway, I said he could have the 41/97 son to use, and he said he kinda hated using something that valuable; because I paid $3200 for him. Then I thought of Dennis`s comment about the $15,000 bulls he turns out...the Shoshone bull I offered Mark yesterday is far more valuable in my opinion; but if he wants to register calves, he`ll need to get the 41/97 son...I like Mark having to make a choice Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:40 pm

more from Dennis on my mind...
I got tired of being a teacher because I got tired of teaching years ago and didn't come to ranching to teach
I taught once myself; the 6th grade a semester; loved it...coached basketball two years; loved it...was forced by my superiors to coach the judging team a half-semester while the "real coach" got there; hated every minute of it because someone told me what I had to teach...
I`m enthused about teaching again; because now what I teach is what I`ve experienced; what life has taught me; I don`t need a book or a lesson plan; it`s in my head...it`s free, and damn valuable...one old saying is free advice is worth what it costs; but another old saying is the best things in life are free...like Mark`s bull choice, you get to decide Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:47 pm

Mark Day wrote:
I have to ask you Larry, Since you began your travels down your own road did you ever tell a possible bull customer that was calling you that he will have to call you back later because you did not have time to talk due to you being in the process of AI'ing cows? I saw that happen today in my office. A person called someone to ask about a bull and he was told by the guy on the other end he was too busy to talk because semen was thawing. Kind of funny don't you think?

from LL
Mark, perhaps I don't understand the full context of your question, but I don't think it is kind of funny at all. I have had to tell people I would have to call them back on many occasions when I am in the middle of something where I simply just cannot stop for a host of different reasons, the least of which would be AI'ing cows .... that's why I have call waiting : )

from mk
comment by Mike elsewhere already explains the above...and the new enthusiasm around Keeney Angus...sadly, the most important thing on the caller`s mind was paperwork and papers...I guess he already knew the bull was good Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:50 pm

more from Dennis
If you imagine the analogy of using snowballs, some of my Shoshone bred cattle are tight, well packed, hard hitting and really sting when they hit you. Some are clearly packed, but not as hard. Some are loosely packed, don't hurt at all, all the way out to loosely rolled wet snow. I use this analogy because it's my way of understanding genetics.

should bulls be priced according to how tight a snowball they are? I think so...
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:19 pm

“....our cattle are a reflection of the one who owns them”

Interesting thought... sobering as well drunken Embarassed -------------------- Who is the fairest one of all....?? Smile



“Then I got very confused during the pursuit of higher percentages of functional purity.”

Larry could you expand on this experience, sorry for my impatience Rolling Eyes Wink
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:06 am

Well Mr. Mike, I guess Mr. White Bull Looker was just trying to follow one of your rules on buying a bull to make a calf crop profitable - don't spend too much for a bull. I did not have a chance to educate him any about registration papers as my office is right across the street from the fire department and across the alley from the police department and it got pretty wild with everyone driving fast to a very large weiner roast 3 blocks or so down from my office. http://www.maysville-online.com/news/local/article_89b12354-ec48-11df-a9fd-001cc4c002e0.html

As for which bull I choose - I am not sure if I have been too tight or too lazy to register an animal for several years or maybe getting more mature in my cattle aspirations. Either way, I am going to come out a winner. 8 years ago I had a heifer calf born that had some illegal white on her. If she had been the result of a natural service sire service she would have been gone because of the image she might portray on a registered breeders farm but she was the result of AI service and I deemed her to valuable to sell at commercial prices. She has paid her way commercially in my estimation. Daughters have been kept as commercial females and her best sons have still been wanted by commercial bull buyers. This has gone on while some other registered animals have given me nothing but freezer beef every year. So you can see I already have some experience dealing with nonpapered Angus cattle. Any heifers from the Shoshone bull would fit right in. As for the other bull you are offering I have seen the dam and granddam of him and several of their offspring. They were my favorite at Sam's several years ago. The Hammer bull of Sam's is a maternal brother to your bull. A Hammer son was the sire of most of those heifers you purchased this Spring. The breeder of the sire of your bull seems to be held in pretty high esteem by none other than LL himself. Your bull was damn impressive when I saw him last Fall but can he pass it on? What will his daughters be like? Do any of us really know yet?
What makes a bull more valuable than others? What you paid for them can be 1 factor. Ease they can be replaced with something similar might be another measuring stick. I am just guessing it might be easier to replace a Shoshone bull than your bull from Sam.I would not be gun shy at all if not for losing a good money bull this Spring.
As for your teaching and coaching a John Wooden book really fits in with all this conversation. I mutter the title many times at practice watching 7th and 8th graders trying to run the 3 man weave and they never can seem to get it right. You know we really "have not taught anything until they have learned". Myself and I know many others on here are grateful that you and LL continue to share your knowledge and experiences and really that is all you have done until we learn. I like to think you are teaching us but it might be a heifer calf with too much white that does the real teaching but only when we are ready to learn and take some risks and maybe some ridicule from registered breeders and family members. I just hope as a breeder I perform better than those short, fat and slow little hoopsters that can't jumpstop, shoot a lay-up off the correct leg or even catch a nice pass on the run.
Sunday should be fun. Maybe I will just let my passengers pick my bull. Maybe it will come down to who is easiest to load or maybe even a more convenience factor - who might be the easiest on my fences. Anyway the bull will ultimately not decide if I am profitable but my management practices.




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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:57 am

Quote :
Mark, perhaps I don't understand the full context of your question, but I don't think it is kind of funny at all

I guess the funny part is Mr. Larry is that the call was being made in my office and I had my hands around this guy's son' s neck and I have told this guy for years how Mike does not use mainstream genetics and uses his own bulls and does not AI. I was just a bit shocked to hear the news that he was unable to talk at that time for the reason he gave. Now that we know the rest of the story lets just hope he keeps his work away from Dwight based on is past history with semen tanks.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:05 am

Why is it that people still think registered cattle need to be managed differently than commercial cattle? The registration papers are a expensive way for a lazy person (me) to keep pedigree history. The animals are all treated the same with the better animals kept as replacements and the rest making heavy weight feeders or freezer beef. The only time registration papers come into play is which bulls will be kept as possible herd sires and they make it easier/cheaper to run genomic profiles on bull candidates at this time.

I would be interested in hearing how the 41/97 offspring are performing? Has the 41/97 son been collected for insurance against an injury? The selection criteria for pinebank bulls sounds different than KCC selection criteria for bulls. Gavin Fallon's selection of outliners to move the whole herd into the direction he chooses makes sense to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:11 am

Quote :
Why is it that people still think registered cattle need to be managed differently than commercial cattle? The registration papers are a expensive way for a lazy person (me) to keep pedigree history.

All of my animals are treated the same. I keep my pedigree info organized by using the AIMS software. It also allows me to calculate all of the ratios and stuff as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:19 am

RobertMac wrote:
Mike, does the phenotype of the progeny from Larry's cattle that you own in Kentucky differ from the phenotype of Larry's cattle?

from LL
From what I have observed, the progeny of most of the cattle derived from my herd "look better" in anyone else's herd ...... better management : )
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:06 pm

There is little value to anything I am able to add to this discussion, other than offerings of praise, for being kind enough to share your experience and workings of your mind Mr. Leonhardt. I made an ill fated attempt to visit you and your operation some nearly two years ago, as much as I think I would have gained, I do not believe I was ready to really SEE or HEAR the product or the workings, and really may never be. The monstrous thread started by Mr. Falloon, that you referred to, is what really opened my eyes, mind, and thought process, for the reasons of the continual failures, of my attempts, in registered mainstream.

The past year, for me, has provided much time for reflection and introspection, in business and the relationship of it, in one’s personal life. As I have made drastic changes in management, business structure, and genetic goals in the mentioned time frame, it is rather overwhelming for my simple mind at times. Yet I have never been more excited for what the future might hold.

The information, or story, reflected by Mr. Voss, I found to be nice touch, informative, and mirroring what has been going through my mind, especially, the simpler way of life, of non-registered seedstock.

I seem to be unable to go through my own cows anymore, without mulling over the discussions here, and find myself encouraged and discouraged, in sequence, as the varying types pass by. But now, with furthering education, both here and abroad, I at least have a general direction in mind, not simply wanting more of this or that trait……..to keep up the game.

My odd, smart-acre, sense of humor, can get me in trouble occasionally, as Propaganda, used in my reference to the True-line literary works, was meant in the first definition my dictionary, provided{ as advertisement meant to promote a product or idea} and not the intentionally deceptive promotion, that most people seem to associate with the word…..and if spoken would have been with a smirk and wink.

It is disheartening to think of the time wasted, in trivial pursuits, of cattle breeding or life in general……so again, I thank everyone that participates here, for making me think for myself, and offering guidance when available. Mr. Leonhardt, I hope you continue to find time, to further educate, instruct, and overwhelm me, here. I have a general idea of what I want my cows to look and perform like, but…….What is your selection process for heifers, do you cull any at weaning, yearling, a breeding…..and what is the criteria, or image you want in a replacement heifer? …….as I am sure it is more than just keeping a heifer from the “good” cow, that has, the “look”.

Life is Good
Bootheel
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:54 pm

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Mike, does the phenotype of the progeny from Larry's cattle that you own in Kentucky differ from the phenotype of Larry's cattle?

from LL
From what I have observed, the progeny of most of the cattle derived from my herd "look better" in anyone else's herd ...... better management : )
Poorly asked question on my part. I would assume that your cattle in most anyone else's herd would be, at minimum, an outcross and the progeny would benefit from hybrid vigor.
I was directing my question toward Mike's herd because I was thinking he may be using a Shoshone bull on the cows he bought from you...making environment the major factor influencing any difference in "look". Or, is the genetic constitution strong enough that the progeny look the same in both environments?
Hope I'm more clear this time.
Thanks, Robert
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:03 pm

Bootheel wrote:
…….as I am sure it is more than just keeping a heifer from the “good” cow, that has, the “look”.
To me, I think it is that simple.
I define a "good cow" as one that produces heifers that become cows in the herd and those daughters produce heifers that become cows in the herd. Isn't this a cow that replicates herself and wouldn't her appearance be the "look"?
Of course, the bar can't be set so low that everything can clear it.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:21 pm

Bootheel wrote:
The past year, for me, has provided much time for reflection and introspection, in business and the relationship of it, in one’s personal life. As I have made drastic changes in management, business structure, and genetic goals in the mentioned time frame, it is rather overwhelming for my simple mind at times. Yet I have never been more excited for what the future might hold.

The information, or story, reflected by Mr. Voss, I found to be nice touch, informative, and mirroring what has been going through my mind, especially, the simpler way of life, of non-registered seedstock.

I seem to be unable to go through my own cows anymore, without mulling over the discussions here, and find myself encouraged and discouraged, in sequence, as the varying types pass by. But now, with furthering education, both here and abroad, I at least have a general direction in mind, not simply wanting more of this or that trait……..to keep up the game.

It is disheartening to think of the time wasted, in trivial pursuits, of cattle breeding or life in general……so again, I thank everyone that participates here, for making me think for myself, and offering guidance when available. Mr. Leonhardt, I hope you continue to find time, to further educate, instruct, and overwhelm me, here. I have a general idea of what I want my cows to look and perform like, but…….What is your selection process for heifers, do you cull any at weaning, yearling, a breeding…..and what is the criteria, or image you want in a replacement heifer? …….as I am sure it is more than just keeping a heifer from the “good” cow, that has, the “look”.

Life is Good
Bootheel

This goes for me too, maybe not verbatim, but at least the general idea. Thanks to everyone here who is giving me the kind of education money cannot buy.
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