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PostSubject: Head on cows   Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:13 am



My favorite cow shot and probably the most humorous is head on. No matter how you look at it, it's a gut buster. My favorite cartoon growing up was Ada the Ayrshire. Since we only got 1 or 2 things in the mail, the Nebraska Stockman or Farmer or whatever it was, had Ada the Ayrshire cartoons. The other paper was the Capper's Weekly out of Kansas, my mother's favorite all-time newspaper. This thread could conceivably contain everybody's head on cow shots. It's linked to useful dialogue concerning breeding cattle, breeding philosophies outside the registered mainstream, zeros in on a cow's capacity. A cow that eats all day, fills up with water, faces you head on in the most contented manner is a humorous sight.
Dennis Voss in the vicinity of the big barrel
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sowman



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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:18 am

One of my favorite Ada cartoons was where she was wrapping herd head underneath a wire back around a post and grazing on her side of the fence. Funny and pretty accurate. What kind of head is needed on a good maternal cow. How important is the head?
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:51 pm



Okay it's not a cow, but it could a been a head on ..... well I was stopped, .... maybe he just wanted to blow a little snot on me. Not a gut buster, but never stops bringing a smile to my face.
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:26 am

hmmmm...we need that page of heads scanned from the Tru-line pamplet
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:52 am



7-13-2002




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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:20 am

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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:49 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:36 pm

Took the camera with me this morning as I was checking for new calves, it has been a cold spring and with my rotational grazing they have nothing to rub on so they tend to be a little shaggy still.





--------------------------------10 year old cow


---------------------------------8 year old cow


--------------------------------15 year old cow


--------------------------------2 year old


---------------------------couple 3 year olds


--------------------------------4 year old bull



.
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:53 pm

Before I go re-photograph all my cows {well, at least the 5 or 6 like best}, what does the head on view tell us about function compared to straight on rear view?
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:17 pm

The reason I like head on shots are manyfold. If we're looking at a bull, it shows his "beastness", his eye set, the amount of hood over his eye, curly masculine hair or not, swirls, ear set, length of head, size of muzzle and on down to the width of chest floor and plunk, plunk, the straightness or crookedness of the front legs. I think one of the big things is capacity or lack of it. Another reason I like head on shots is it defies the status quo, AAA B.S. Head on head shots of cows tell me a lot about their disposition. For instance go back and look at Gus' number 6. This calf is laid back, pet like, I wouldn't doubt Gus slips a piece of cake to it once in a while. But it isn't what I think the calf exhibits as much as what the calf exudes as character. The power of observation is where it is at. Humans need to trust their ability to observe and translate what they observe. I don't know MK about the difference between head on compared to rear view. Rear view doesn't interest me. Tail is in the way of udder or scrotum etc. Some of the high marbling carcass cattle I had around here for a while were beginning to lose their chest floor, becoming very narrow. Some were developing knock knees. There needs to be some width and the legs need to be straight down. Also it's a good place to see feet but you have to be in a drought or on pavement. I rather like all the grass. It's pretty inspirational. Mean Spirit's 2 cows head on are very impressive. I like what I see in leg structure, chest floor and disposition. They both look like they are trying to mentally transmit treats from Mean Spirit. Just personal preference but I would probably take Hilly's 8 yr old cow if I had pick of the photos represented.
Dennis Voss in the vicinity
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:52 pm

The little 6 bull never got any cake, always was curious tho. became overly tame. Had one buyer, who loved the bull but wouldn't take him because as soon as he saw you he would run over to see what you were doing and wanted petted. Funny the person that did buy him, said at first he didn't care much for it, but after finding out that all you had to do was show up to the gate and he would come over to it. Said it made a cinch when you just wanted to move him. However, I guess he did try to breed every cow in the neighborhood, ended up doing damaging to his equipment, ended his career as a yearling. The guy said out of all the bulls he had that was probably the only one he had any personal feeling for, kinda like a big dog.

I don't have many head on pictures tho I like them. It you didn't guess I was pretty proud of my little 6 bull. Most people would probably say he had a lot of junk in his pedigree, maybe he was the exception, All I can say is he is what he is and I like him.

My nephew said I should call my self the twine string ranch. The second bull from the left is the only bull I ever had that I think wanted to seriously do bodily damage to me. He done it at about 3PM by 5PM he was on his way to the sale ring. Sold the next day. Never quite understood the bull in the middle, I would have to kick him in the butt to get him to move, but a stranger showed up and he went nutso wild. The bull on the far left had a retain testicle, so the only good bulls are the 2 on the right.
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:04 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
The reason I like head on shots are manyfold. If we're looking at a bull, it shows his "beastness", his eye set, the amount of hood over his eye, curly masculine hair or not, swirls, ear set, length of head, size of muzzle and on down to the width of chest floor and plunk, plunk, the straightness or crookedness of the front legs. I think one of the big things is capacity or lack of it. Another reason I like head on shots is it defies the status quo, AAA B.S. Head on head shots of cows tell me a lot about their disposition. For instance go back and look at Gus' number 6. This calf is laid back, pet like, I wouldn't doubt Gus slips a piece of cake to it once in a while. But it isn't what I think the calf exhibits as much as what the calf exudes as character. The power of observation is where it is at. Humans need to trust their ability to observe and translate what they observe. I don't know MK about the difference between head on compared to rear view. Rear view doesn't interest me. Tail is in the way of udder or scrotum etc. Some of the high marbling carcass cattle I had around here for a while were beginning to lose their chest floor, becoming very narrow. Some were developing knock knees. There needs to be some width and the legs need to be straight down. Also it's a good place to see feet but you have to be in a drought or on pavement. I rather like all the grass. It's pretty inspirational. Mean Spirit's 2 cows head on are very impressive. I like what I see in leg structure, chest floor and disposition. They both look like they are trying to mentally transmit treats from Mean Spirit. Just personal preference but I would probably take Hilly's 8 yr old cow if I had pick of the photos represented.
Dennis Voss in the vicinity
Dennis,
What I was digging for is not the front the best representative of functional type in both sexes, and the rear is about the amount of meat...??
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:11 pm

Keystone wrote:

Kent, I don`t know if this is a compliment or critique, but it`s the truth of my view...that shot of that bull reminds me soooo much of the animal that would keep me from sleeping on a Red Lodge park bench...and would scare me to death for an easy meal if I met him face on ...on a trail...I love the picture...
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:15 pm




Lance, a yearling, cleanup bull I really liked, except you tended to see his face alot, not always in a friendly way.



Jed, yearling, Lance's maternal brother, with a bunch of strangers



ZsaZsa, probably 3 yrs old, who I never really liked, but whose mother was apparently God's gift to cowdom. Not at Faraway any longer.
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:51 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
The reason I like head on shots are manyfold. If we're looking at a bull, it shows his "beastness", his eye set, the amount of hood over his eye, curly masculine hair or not, swirls, ear set, length of head, size of muzzle and on down to the width of chest floor and plunk, plunk, the straightness or crookedness of the front legs. I think one of the big things is capacity or lack of it. Another reason I like head on shots is it defies the status quo, AAA B.S. Head on head shots of cows tell me a lot about their disposition. For instance go back and look at Gus' number 6. This calf is laid back, pet like, I wouldn't doubt Gus slips a piece of cake to it once in a while. But it isn't what I think the calf exhibits as much as what the calf exudes as character. The power of observation is where it is at. Humans need to trust their ability to observe and translate what they observe. I don't know MK about the difference between head on compared to rear view. Rear view doesn't interest me. Tail is in the way of udder or scrotum etc. Some of the high marbling carcass cattle I had around here for a while were beginning to lose their chest floor, becoming very narrow. Some were developing knock knees. There needs to be some width and the legs need to be straight down. Also it's a good place to see feet but you have to be in a drought or on pavement. I rather like all the grass. It's pretty inspirational. Mean Spirit's 2 cows head on are very impressive. I like what I see in leg structure, chest floor and disposition. They both look like they are trying to mentally transmit treats from Mean Spirit. Just personal preference but I would probably take Hilly's 8 yr old cow if I had pick of the photos represented.
Dennis Voss in the vicinity

Hilly's 8 year old has a soft eye.
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:04 am

Mike,

He is not happy in the photo. He was whipped by a group of younger bulls and chased out of the breeding pasture. He hid in a half section of 8' tall feed for several weeks. I took the picture when he finally came out for water. He never quite got over losing his ranking as top bull.

MKeeney wrote:
Keystone wrote:

Kent, I don`t know if this is a compliment or critique, but it`s the truth of my view...that shot of that bull reminds me soooo much of the animal that would keep me from sleeping on a Red Lodge park bench...and would scare me to death for an easy meal if I met him face on ...on a trail...I love the picture...
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:11 am

So far Kent,you got it "going" on that head on bull photo. Mean Spirit, the feet look good on Jed, nice and tight DV, near the whoopie birds.
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:36 am

An inquisitive and intelligent glint in the eye is a deal maker for me, one of my more important selection criteria when buying critters of any kind is to first establish a level of trust with the group then sort out individuals one at a time and engage eye contact and hold it just past comfortable then disengage an release all pressure both eye and proximity, then if they attempt to reengage on their own... it’s a deal.

In my limited experience with that type of animal they will last longer as they seem to enjoy life more. Quiet animals that don’t respond to pressure are depressing to me and seem depressed themselves, where as nervous animals tend to worry about things that are out of their control and forget about things that are. Of course you can work with both but when selecting from a group I prefer if they make the choice, not me.

Sounds more than a little ridiculous I know and it is a bit hard to explain due to the blue sky nature of it, but if nothing else you get a free lol! on me Smile

Hilly in the vicinity of a self serving imagination
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:07 am

I like it Hilly, it sounds like you have the abilities that used to be called stockmanship where I came from. The subtle observation of behaviour in response to pressure. I'm sure some people think I'm crazy when I tell them how to keep their bulls trained. With my bulls I make a point of walking up to the bulls every day I check them, approaching at an angle between his head and shoulder from the front and applying enough pressure that he acknowledges me with eye contact and then turns away. It's just something I've always done since I reared my first bull at 18 and in that time I have never had a bull turn bad with me, never had an aggressive bull. I know some of the bulls I've sold over the years have gone on to cause trouble for people and in every case I've asked the people how they handled the bulls and it seems they always checked on quads or in trucks, never got off the vehicle and never challenged the bulls authority. I guess most people would rather buy a bull with an temperment EPD than put the time in to study and work with their own ones.
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:34 am

Hilly wrote:
An inquisitive and intelligent glint in the eye is a deal maker for me, one of my more important selection criteria when buying critters of any kind is to first establish a level of trust with the group then sort out individuals one at a time and engage eye contact and hold it just past comfortable then disengage an release all pressure both eye and proximity, then if they attempt to reengage on their own... it’s a deal.

In my limited experience with that type of animal they will last longer as they seem to enjoy life more. Quiet animals that don’t respond to pressure are depressing to me and seem depressed themselves, where as nervous animals tend to worry about things that are out of their control and forget about things that are. Of course you can work with both but when selecting from a group I prefer if they make the choice, not me.

Sounds more than a little ridiculous I know and it is a bit hard to explain due to the blue sky nature of it, but if nothing else you get a free lol! on me

Hilly in the vicinity of a self serving imagination


Well Hilly, your post reminds me of the best of this dialogue we get into on sites like this. I personally couldn't agree more with your observations. The only thing I disagree with is your characterization that expresses your fear of people believing you. I'm know I'm older than you by quite a stretch, so why don't you do yourself a favor right now and trust yourself. Pee straight into the toilet bowl hitting the water with the splashy sound it makes instead of peeing on the side where it makes no sound at all.

You have a lot to offer. Don't wait till you're my age to bristle up and act like an old jerk. Start now and enjoy more years of jerkness. I especially am compatible with the idea of an inquisitive and intelligent glint in the eye of an animal. This characterization of personality and intelligence offers a lot of added value over the other 2 types of animals you described. I bought 3 potloads of commercial cows years ago that had 20 years of the same breeding. The guy was religious in his adoration of the purebred supplier. Anyhow, they didn't last here very long. They had no rangeability, they reminded me of depressed Holstein cows and their milk was watery and low protein - very abundant when the grass was green, and non-existent when the grass cured out. They were lazy cattle and they were dumb. They were so much that way you'd wish one of them would fire up. Their immunity was low. Thinking about them makes me ill. In closing, what you've opened up here is a huge can of worms based on the power of observation.
Dennis Voss one hour after staring some bulls down who had a big fight, broke the wires, got out on the highway, and in general acted like bulls
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:15 pm

Same bull after a freeze killed the feed and we were able to get him in:





Last edited by Keystone on Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:29 pm

Keystone wrote:
Same bull after a freeze killed the feed and we could were able to get him in:




Kent, he looks really starved down Smile Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:37 pm

Hilly wrote:
An inquisitive and intelligent glint in the eye is a deal maker for me, one of my more important selection criteria when buying critters of any kind is to first establish a level of trust with the group then sort out individuals one at a time and engage eye contact and hold it just past comfortable then disengage an release all pressure both eye and proximity, then if they attempt to reengage on their own... it’s a deal.

In my limited experience with that type of animal they will last longer as they seem to enjoy life more. Quiet animals that don’t respond to pressure are depressing to me and seem depressed themselves, where as nervous animals tend to worry about things that are out of their control and forget about things that are. Of course you can work with both but when selecting from a group I prefer if they make the choice, not me.

Sounds more than a little ridiculous I know and it is a bit hard to explain due to the blue sky nature of it, but if nothing else you get a free lol! on me Smile

Hilly in the vicinity of a self serving imagination

Hilly- I don't think its a bit rediculous- as I use much the same reasoning when buying an animal or picking out replacements to keep as disposition means a lot to me...

In fact I always say I didn't pick out the Bannon 730T bull- that he picked me out!!
I went to Taylors looking for a Sinclair Rito Legacy son (as a way of adding some old 707 genetics)-- then saw the old Bannon of Wye 8420 bull, which really impressed me - and made me take a long look at the Bannon sons--and liked what I saw... He had several sons that fit my criteria- and were much like peas in a pod-- but 730T was the one that kept coming out of the group to look at me- even walking up behind me and nibbling on my back pocket... Every time I turned around he was there looking at me with those big mellow eyes...
So I came home with 2 bulls--and I wasn't wrong as he is probably the quietest, easiest to handle bull I've ever owned- and appears to pass that disposition on to his calves....



Whitney Creek Bannon 730T #15800329
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:01 am

Dennis Voss wrote:


Well Hilly, your post reminds me of the best of this dialogue we get into on sites like this. I personally couldn't agree more with your observations. The only thing I disagree with is your characterization that expresses your fear of people believing you. I'm know I'm older than you by quite a stretch, so why don't you do yourself a favor right now and trust yourself. Pee straight into the toilet bowl hitting the water with the splashy sound it makes instead of peeing on the side where it makes no sound at all.

You have a lot to offer. Don't wait till you're my age to bristle up and act like an old jerk. Start now and enjoy more years of jerkness. I especially am compatible with the idea of an inquisitive and intelligent glint in the eye of an animal. This characterization of personality and intelligence offers a lot of added value over the other 2 types of animals you described. I bought 3 potloads of commercial cows years ago that had 20 years of the same breeding. The guy was religious in his adoration of the purebred supplier. Anyhow, they didn't last here very long. They had no rangeability, they reminded me of depressed Holstein cows and their milk was watery and low protein - very abundant when the grass was green, and non-existent when the grass cured out. They were lazy cattle and they were dumb. They were so much that way you'd wish one of them would fire up. Their immunity was low. Thinking about them makes me ill. In closing, what you've opened up here is a huge can of worms based on the power of observation.
Dennis Voss one hour after staring some bulls down who had a big fight, broke the wires, got out on the highway, and in general acted like bulls

I understand that my passive and apologetic demeanour can be very annoying, heck I annoy myself on here... as I spent the better part of my life being very confrontational, with little respect for the “goodie two shoes” type. I am sure my family that reads these forums must wonder what’s wrong with me and who this alter ego is. The funny thing is I find it somewhat interesting trying to stay on the other side of the fence so to speak, although it can be very hard to maintain at times.

My interpretation of the world around me is just that, I don’t expect any two of us to see it the same. Like it or not, much of life is cyclical and in this season I feel I have a lot to learn and little to share, I enjoy the sharing of higher perspectives from the more experienced on here, as it simply isn’t visible from my vantage point.

The point GF makes is a good one and often I have seen the proverbial pet, which does not understand their rank. When I was a kid we had a big Holstein steer that was kind of like a pet to me, he would lower his head and I would get situated on his horns with my hands and then he would through me in the air... it was great fun and I spent a fair bit of time at that “game” I knew that he didn’t see me as dominant and due to that I had to give respect to the unpredictability of the situation. My Anatolian on the guard dog thread had to regularly be put on his back in a submissive position to maintain a healthy relationship. An animal that likes treats or enjoys being scratched is fine if they understand their boundaries. I found using stud horses for work, one of the best ways to “hone” my leadership skills... never a “dull” moment Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Head on cows   Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:25 pm

This thread has been one of the more interesting works I have read. You folks keep it up, for us remedial students. I'm just going to lay up in the holler, under the shade, and keep a watchful eye for enemy combatants, so as ya'll can work in peace.

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