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 4465, Defective in what way?

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Charles



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Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:33 am

That white cow sure isn't any Ideal 4465, but might be OK for farm use...... Laughing
Kind of goose necked...... Very Happy
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:42 am

Sowman, Pretty hard for maternal selection to be accurate without a proving time of a few yrs. If selection is inaccurate, faster generation interval just gets you more off-track faster.
Again, just IMHO.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:05 am

MKeeney wrote:
the program promoting 4465 says this? mk
Our strategy at ------ is to produce cattle with superior low input genetics that enhance the long-term economics of the cattle industry. We are fond of saying, “We breed and raise them the way we want to buy them.” To that end donor females have been selected for traits we believe facilitate our strategy, including, but not limited to, fertility, calving ease, milking ability, rate of gain, feed conversion, easy fleshing, carcass, longevity and docile temperament, all wrapped in a structurally sound and eye-appealing package. (as I said, EVERYTHING...HOW WONDERFUL!!}To enhance these efforts, we use a sophisticated Embryo Transfer (ET) program and breed our donors to proven bulls and our own herd sires.


Agreed. Can't put low-input (if meaning feed) in with selecting for growth (size) and milk. $EN shows that to be true.

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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:22 am

We all judge livestock everyday, df, if you have cows anyhow. The context of "shows", versus judging is flawed. Using market animal standards, and feeding methods, for breeding stock, is where I believe many of the problems lie. Learning to seperate the standards and evaluation methods of the two, is where many have issues. Without the ability to judge visually, problematic structure and type, little progress will be made on non-visual traits in the long term.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:31 am

Bootheel wrote:
We all judge livestock everyday, df, if you have cows anyhow. The context of "shows", versus judging is flawed. Using market animal standards, and feeding methods, for breeding stock, is where I believe many of the problems lie. Learning to seperate the standards and evaluation methods of the two, is where many have issues. Agree.


Without the ability to judge visually, problematic structure and type, little progress will be made on non-visual traits in the long term.
Is there a strong correlation of visual to non-visual traits? How close to "perfect" do these physical characteristics need to be to be "good enough"?
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:40 am

df wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
We all judge livestock everyday, df, if you have cows anyhow. The context of "shows", versus judging is flawed. Using market animal standards, and feeding methods, for breeding stock, is where I believe many of the problems lie. Learning to seperate the standards and evaluation methods of the two, is where many have issues. Agree.


Without the ability to judge visually, problematic structure and type, little progress will be made on non-visual traits in the long term.
Is there a strong correlation of visual to non-visual traits? How close to "perfect" do these physical characteristics need to be to be "good enough"?

Re correlation of visual to non

I do not know as there is any correlation, but the visual would be the foundation, to build the non-visual upon. Without the visual being right, or near right, the other does not matter. The visual traits being more related to function, otherwise you end up with the kind of cow being cussed or discussed, whichever you prefer.

There will certainly be some like her that function, the exception if you like, but as a general rule, the type tends to fail. The cost to replicate them being too high, for me at least.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:45 am

Life is too short to not raise the type of cattle that you like, hopefully they are of a phenotype that is productive with out much sorting. If it is not you will have to find a job to support your eye for cattle. Bob H
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sowman



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:58 pm

Charles, dry that cow up, put way to much condition on her and I think you have two very similar cows. At least in type.

DF, I agree with you in regards to the Jorgensens and not playing registered games.


MK, If you do not consider that type to be a good type from a maternal type would she then be a good terminal line cow.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:33 pm

sowman wrote:
Charles, dry that cow up, put way to much condition on her and I think you have two very similar cows. At least in type.

DF, I agree with you in regards to the Jorgensens and not playing registered games.


MK, If you do not consider that type to be a good type from a maternal type would she then be a good terminal line cow.
for gain and feed efficiency great...for lean yield, not too good...even within terminal use, there is a need for different types depending on end purpose specs...
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:34 pm

My guess is that if you put Ideal 4465 on a diet, she will be non-functional probably won't breed. Good females of all species have the genetic code to keep their weight within a normal productive range, not get sloppy fat. Too much white muscle as the show jocks call it. This cow and Emblazon look more like hippos than bovines as stated. IMHO
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:48 pm

A little goes a long way
During daylight hours, the hippo spends almost all its time wallowing in shallow water. In the evenings, after the hot sun has set, hippos come out of the water for a night of grazing—in fact, this goes on for about six hours! Despite their enormous weight, hippos eat an average of only 88 pounds (40 kilograms) of food a night. This amount is about 1 to 1.5 percent of their body weight. By comparison, the largest cattle eat 2.5 percent of their body weight each day.

From the San Diego Zoo website



Apparently the hippo is quite forage-efficient. Hmmmmm........
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sowman



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:32 pm

She is in the top 15% for RE and YG with pretty good accuracy for a cow. 58 groups 106 progeny. I think this is pretty good evidence that visual appraisal can be deceiving IMHO.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:41 pm

sowman wrote:
She is in the top 15% for RE and YG with pretty good accuracy for a cow. 58 groups 106 progeny. I think this is pretty good evidence that visual appraisal can be deceiving IMHO.
ton cows usually have decent sized ribeyes...
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:50 pm

An interesting thought on ribeye to me is what house wife would like to buy over a 12 inch ribeye and yg is about feeding time on frame score.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:34 am

Quote :
MK, If you do not consider that type to be a good type from a maternal type would she then be a good terminal line cow.

Would depend on the price of tallow.
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sowman



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:46 pm

Mike, correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that RE measurements were taken at and adjusted to 365 days of age. So her value of top 15% would be based on her own performance, that of her offspring ,(108 progeny) and her relatives. Interesting also that while her yearling and mature height are in the lower end of the breed her mature weight is in the upper end. With a RADG in the very top of the breed it would seem she is pretty efficient at putting on red meat.


Charles, wouldnt any good beef animal that had reached their mature frame and was continually fed above their maintenance requirements keep putting on fat and weight. I just dont see that as evidence of some kind of defect or hormonal imbalance.

Bob H, I agree with your thought that ribeyes could actually get to big for consumers. However if the line was being used in a terminal cross wouldnt there be the need to increase muscling when crossed with the highly specialized maternal line. Otherwise are we not just back to one type doing it all. If we are back to one type doing it all it appears the cow in question would not be to bad IMHO.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:55 pm

sowman wrote:
Mike, correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that RE measurements were taken at and adjusted to 365 days of age. So her value of top 15% would be based on her own performance, that of her offspring ,(108 progeny) and her relatives. Interesting also that while her yearling and mature height are in the lower end of the breed her mature weight is in the upper end. With a RADG in the very top of the breed it would seem she is pretty efficient at putting on red meat.


.
this is true...so the bigger they are at a year, the bigger the RE measurement should be...to me, muscularity is determined by RE/CWT carcass or live wt...
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:59 pm

Ribeye measurements, Scrotal measurements, Pelvic measurements, shouldn't they all have to be adjusted to an animal's weight to have any real meaning?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:02 pm

sowman wrote:
Mike, correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that RE measurements were taken at and adjusted to 365 days of age. So her value of top 15% would be based on her own performance, that of her offspring ,(108 progeny) and her relatives. Interesting also that while her yearling and mature height are in the lower end of the breed her mature weight is in the upper end. With a RADG in the very top of the breed it would seem she is pretty efficient at putting on red meat.


Charles, wouldnt any good beef animal that had reached their mature frame and was continually fed above their maintenance requirements keep putting on fat and weight. I just dont see that as evidence of some kind of defect or hormonal imbalance.

Bob H, I agree with your thought that ribeyes could actually get to big for consumers. However if the line was being used in a terminal cross wouldnt there be the need to increase muscling when crossed with the highly specialized maternal line. Otherwise are we not just back to one type doing it all. If we are back to one type doing it all it appears the cow in question would not be to bad IMHO.

maybe all they need is a new picture Smile i find it interesting that the sire is 15 on milk, dam 12, and 4465 29 on milk...
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sowman



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:45 pm

Well Mike I must admit I like the looks of most of your cow pictures better than that picture of 4465. I guess my take home lesson is dont judge a book by its cover or a little fat is better than skinny but way to fat is sure not pretty.javascript:emoticonp('Laughing')
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:01 pm

sowman wrote:
a little fat is better than skinny but way to fat is sure not pretty.)

this actually works across species, in my opinion.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:04 pm

sowman wrote:
Well Mike I must admit I like the looks of most of your cow pictures better than that picture of 4465. I guess my take home lesson is dont judge a book by its cover or a little fat is better than skinny but way to fat is sure not pretty.javascript:emoticonp('Laughing')
Anything I say or do at the 4.9 should not be used against me in a true discussion Smile The antagonist, who owns a 4465 son by Objective , was out to degrade not only me, but LL in the process of getting to me...I wouldn`t have bothered about the cow otherwise, just pointing out no cattle or breeder is free of "defects", recessive or visual, lot`s of griping, even some joy over the defects because of who it affected...yet no one griping is taking serious action to prevent the next occurence of the next recessive...too slow, and the rewards are not comensurate in an expeditant society for a RFT status...
Dennis and I have mentioned why we ride over to the 4.9, but the idea that the 4.9 makes so clear for me, is I am so glad I am no longer a registered breeder....lots of good, ordinary people registering cattle for sure, but just one con ruins the entire experience...or even the ignorant innocent is beyond my patience these days...btw, IYHO, what you heard about the calves by ________ Smile
But since the subject is started, I wonder how many calves she weaned of her own accord...and where did that plus 29 milk came from? we are surely talking individuals in this case, and not populations...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:14 pm

MK,

Are you wondering how it can be calculated and have high accuracy (for a cow) when she did not have many calves on her own?

She does have 61 daughters in 23 herds and lots of grandaughters through a multitude of sons (many used via AI) and daughters.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:21 pm

df wrote:
MK,

Are you wondering how it can be calculated and have high accuracy (for a cow) when she did not have many calves on her own?

She does have 61 daughters in 23 herds and lots of grandaughters through a multitude of sons (many used via AI) and daughters.

no
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sowman



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:35 pm

Could the milk epd be the result of within breed heterosis. Just out of curiosity has the cow been flushed to any Shoshone bulls.
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