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 4465, Defective in what way?

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sowman



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PostSubject: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:42 am

Mike , In another forum you showed a picture of her and challenged turnbull about the use of her sons as herdbulls. I am really trying to learn from these forums and would appreciate your specific thought s on her pros and cons. Also any experiences with offspring?

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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:18 pm

Not feminine, probably hormone imbalanced even before being a flush cow. Too fat even for a doner. Just my opinion.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:34 pm

to me she looks like a hippo, not a bovine.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:10 pm

Are there any pictures of her as a heifer with calf at side?
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:29 pm

Don't need any pictures of her as a heifer, functional cows tend to look good all during their productive life. Poor functioners tend to look like poor functioners at all stages too. Power cows are generally poor functioners. Look at Grassfarmers cows in his recent post "Green season in Canada" The cow behind the solar fencer is about perfect.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:58 pm

Charles wrote:
Don't need any pictures of her as a heifer, functional cows tend to look good all during their productive life. Poor functioners tend to look like poor functioners at all stages too. Power cows are generally poor functioners. Look at Grassfarmers cows in his recent post "Green season in Canada" The cow behind the solar fencer is about perfect.

Yikes, and she is just a skinny necked Angus Shocked Good productive cow but a little too high input/output for my liking and my system.
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:11 pm

Your point is understood GF. I think she would be about right here in my milder Ohio climate with much longer growing season, less winter maybe a little corn silage when it's cold. I like what Dylan calls them, "Goose necked" cows.
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sowman



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:44 am

Charles, I think I see the difference between GFs cow by the fencer and the picture of the cow in question. I am wondering how much of the difference is due to condition. Would the cow in question look more the type if she was in a more ideal condition. Is the cow in question too much of an easy keeper to be functional or was she just over fed.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:41 am

I believe she`s the "feed efficiency" cow of the breed....LL used to have some of the same kind in the "red tags"; primarily Shannon daughters...
primarily my point was in that entire exchange was to point out that no breeder can be certain that his cattle are free of defects...recessive or expressed...
and how many are concerned about preventing it, to do something about it? like breed a bull to his daughters? The number one thing learned from all this recessive "findings" is how quick it is used to make a buck from several different angles..
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:49 am

sowman wrote:
Mike , In another forum you showed a picture of her and challenged turnbull about the use of her sons as herdbulls. I am really trying to learn from these forums and would appreciate your specific thought s on her pros and cons. Also any experiences with offspring?


just experiences with the "type"...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:39 am

Charles wrote:
Your point is understood GF. I think she would be about right here in my milder Ohio climate with much longer growing season, less winter maybe a little corn silage when it's cold. I like what Dylan calls them, "Goose necked" cows.

Isn't "goose necked" a judging term you would hear after "cool"??????
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I heard livestock judging was a waste...............I guess it has its place.
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:19 am

I don't know if Dylan is an old livestock judge or not, but I like the term, easy to understand for me. Laughing Long necked and feminine, just like a good lookin' woman. Too much fat usually leads to lowered fertility. I sold a commercial cow/calf pair yesterday, the cow was very much like 4465. Fat sloppy easy keeping cow to the max, but kept it all on her back. Has been weaning 350 lb calves. 1500 lb cow. She will wean them for someone else now.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:25 am

If I remember correctly, 4465 only weaned one calf and was a donor from that point onward. Is that picture, I believe taken just before she sold in Jorgensen's sale as a mature cow, a true representation?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:36 am

df wrote:
If I remember correctly, 4465 only weaned one calf and was a donor from that point onward. Is that picture, I believe taken just before she sold in Jorgensen's sale as a mature cow, a true representation?
given her "data", I would guess so...
wean one calf, and then flush?
certainly indicative of the con game registered business...
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:38 am

A cow that has only weaned one calf shouldn't be a donor IMHO Laughing Shocked
She needs a long track record of consistant productivity first. Again IMHO. Laughing
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:47 am

Charles wrote:
A cow that has only weaned one calf shouldn't be a donor IMHO Laughing Shocked
She needs a long track record of consistant productivity first. Again IMHO. Laughing
to be a good cow, yes...to be a mama cow of terminal bulls, probably not...wonder what her offspring have been promoted as doing? i betcha "everything"...
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:02 am

What is really needed in the beef industry???
A LOT more really GOOD cows! Again, just IMHO Laughing

Terminal stuff is everywhere........

I am not sure that "fat easy-keeping" feed efficiency cow is the best base for a terminal bull anyway, I would want grow and muscle. Again, just IMHO. Laughing
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df



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:05 am

Who are we to judge if she is a good cow? Without intimate knowledge of the Jorgensen lines, would we not be assuming she is not a good cow, when they know her ancestors more than we ever could? Are not the genes there, which the breeders recognize, and decide she should be a donor?

I don't see many Jorgensen bulls sold for more than $20,000 and most would bring <$7500. They don't have female sales with $100,000 cows but do market a couple thousand bulls, mostly unregistered Angus, to commercial producers. I don't see a lot of con game registered business.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:11 am

df wrote:
Who are we to judge if she is a good cow? Without intimate knowledge of the Jorgensen lines, would we not be assuming she is not a good cow, when they know her ancestors more than we ever could? Are not the genes there, which the breeders recognize, and decide she should be a donor?

I don't see many Jorgensen bulls sold for more than $20,000 and most would bring <$7500. They don't have female sales with $100,000 cows but do market a couple thousand bulls, mostly unregistered Angus, to commercial producers. I don't see a lot of con game registered business.

This exciting new donor is being flushed this fall. She has a full bodied composition with a deep ribbed midsection and a lot of muscle. She has EPD’s in the top 5% in the breed for milk and carcass weight, and her bull calves out of our first flush, to Leachman Right Time are currently outgaining the other bulls in their contemporary group.

That her offspring are doing well should come as no surprise, because the dam of this cow is the legendary Ideal 4465 OF 6807 4286. She has generated nearly $2.5 million in progeny sales to date. This cow is famous for being the foundation of the first family in the Angus breed recognized for excelling in feed efficiency. She is regarded as DHD Traveler 6807’s greatest daughter, she sold for $45,000 as the all-time top selling female to sell at Jorgensen Ranches in 2003 and went on to sell one-half interest for $55,000 for a $110,000 valuation as a twelve year old in 2006 at the Sterling Hunter Dispersal. Her productive maternal sisters include the $110,000 Whitestone and Tanner donor Sinclair Lady 2P61 4465 who has generated nearly $1 million in progeny sales to date.

Her sire is Ideal 8103 of Eldo 5110 5213. Her full brother was an ABS sire, known as “The Converter” because of his feed efficiency numbers during Jorgensen’s feed test.

She was recently flushed to O C C Paxton 730P and Basin Rainmaker 654X and produced 13 and 15 embryos respectively. She will be flushed to N Bar Shadow next.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:14 am

does how many eggs you get in a flush indicate fertility?mk
Sinclair Lady 5ET3 4465 blends the Lady and Enchantress families by the Pathfinder Sire N Bar Explosion TNT from the Sinclair feed efficiency matriarch Ideal 4465 of 6807 4286. She looks to be a very fertile donor, with 12 grade 1 eggs coming out of her first flush. She is easy fleshing, deep ribbed, well muscled, and extremely long cow. She has a beautiful udder and feminine head.

The dam of this cow is the legendary Ideal 4465 OF 6807 4286. She has generated nearly $2.5 million in progeny sales to date. This cow is famous for being the foundation of the first family in the Angus breed recognized for excelling in feed efficiency. She is regarded as DHD Traveler 6807’s greatest daughter, she sold for $45,000 as the all-time top selling female to sell at Jorgensen Ranches in 2003 and went on to sell one-half interest for $55,000 for a $110,000 valuation as a twelve year old in 2006 at the Sterling Hunter Dispersal. Her productive maternal sisters include the $110,000 Whitestone and Tanner donor Sinclair Lady 2P61 4465 who has generated nearly $1 million in progeny sales to date. Coleman Angus purchased her full sister for $40,000 in the 2008 Sinclair sale.

She is scheduled to be flushed to F0203, NBar Shadow, OCC Missing Link, Leachman Right Time, Dunlouise Jipsey Earl, and Black Grove Elation.

Call us to discover how this powerful donor can help your program.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:17 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Who are we to judge if she is a good cow? Without intimate knowledge of the Jorgensen lines, would we not be assuming she is not a good cow, when they know her ancestors more than we ever could? Are not the genes there, which the breeders recognize, and decide she should be a donor?

I don't see many Jorgensen bulls sold for more than $20,000 and most would bring <$7500. They don't have female sales with $100,000 cows but do market a couple thousand bulls, mostly unregistered Angus, to commercial producers. I don't see a lot of con game registered business.

This exciting new donor is being flushed this fall. She has a full bodied composition with a deep ribbed midsection and a lot of muscle. She has EPD’s in the top 5% in the breed for milk and carcass weight, and her bull calves out of our first flush, to Leachman Right Time are currently outgaining the other bulls in their contemporary group.

That her offspring are doing well should come as no surprise, because the dam of this cow is the legendary Ideal 4465 OF 6807 4286. She has generated nearly $2.5 million in progeny sales to date. This cow is famous for being the foundation of the first family in the Angus breed recognized for excelling in feed efficiency. She is regarded as DHD Traveler 6807’s greatest daughter, she sold for $45,000 as the all-time top selling female to sell at Jorgensen Ranches in 2003 and went on to sell one-half interest for $55,000 for a $110,000 valuation as a twelve year old in 2006 at the Sterling Hunter Dispersal. Her productive maternal sisters include the $110,000 Whitestone and Tanner donor Sinclair Lady 2P61 4465 who has generated nearly $1 million in progeny sales to date.

Her sire is Ideal 8103 of Eldo 5110 5213. Her full brother was an ABS sire, known as “The Converter” because of his feed efficiency numbers during Jorgensen’s feed test.

She was recently flushed to O C C Paxton 730P and Basin Rainmaker 654X and produced 13 and 15 embryos respectively. She will be flushed to N Bar Shadow next.


All of that, except selling for $45,000, took place after she left Jorgensens. I was simply discussing her time and picture while in SD, not what she was promoted as after she left. But the point is well taken.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:18 am

6807 maternal???mk
EXT x IDEAL 4465
•Stacks two of the breed's all time great maternal sires in EXT and 6807
•His dam is a highly proven source of curve bender performance genetics and the feed efficiency matriarch in the Jorgensen program
•Ranks #1 for progeny proven tenderness with a -.37 Shear Force EPD
•Use EXCELLENCY for maternal value and phenoptype without sacrificing performance
•Sexed semen available
AMERICAN ANGUS SIRE SUMMARY 6/10/2011
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:23 am

the program promoting 4465 says this? mk
Our strategy at ------ is to produce cattle with superior low input genetics that enhance the long-term economics of the cattle industry. We are fond of saying, “We breed and raise them the way we want to buy them.” To that end donor females have been selected for traits we believe facilitate our strategy, including, but not limited to, fertility, calving ease, milking ability, rate of gain, feed conversion, easy fleshing, carcass, longevity and docile temperament, all wrapped in a structurally sound and eye-appealing package. (as I said, EVERYTHING...HOW WONDERFUL!!}To enhance these efforts, we use a sophisticated Embryo Transfer (ET) program and breed our donors to proven bulls and our own herd sires.

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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:29 am

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sowman



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PostSubject: Re: 4465, Defective in what way?   Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:32 am

I would agree that in a maternal line program I would want to see a cow prove herself in the pasture before being flushed. The flip side of the coin is that you can speed up generation interval by flushing younger. What age is a cow proven. Looks like this cow has 61 daughters in 23 herds now so maybe she is proven by her daughters. Mike does this type always fail as pasture cows or just a much higher percentage? If selection is accurate would not faster generation interval help a program whether they were trying to maximize, optimize or just stay static by closebreeding. Mike I would agree that there are many practices in the registered game that have no commercial value , however I do not see this as a black or white issue , perhaps some shades of grey.
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