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 Variation - bell shaped curve

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Kent Powell



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:45 am

I do not believe you can single out any trait and change it without changing everything. With a measurement and ranking formula, it it the unmeasured that suffers.

Function is my priority. What selection index for function do you reccomend?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:18 pm

Keystone wrote:
I do not believe you can single out any trait and change it without changing everything. With a measurement and ranking formula, it it the unmeasured that suffers.

Function is my priority. What selection index for function do you reccomend?

Can you identify "optimum" animals, a population that will not be changed?

What are the underlying traits that you call function?
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:52 pm

Quote :
Do you think the outliers are due to new mutations or a result of the combination of genes that are already in the parents?

YES, as if what I think matters to the unseen genes!
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:11 pm

Is anybody surprised at what has been "gained" in terms of $B compared to what has been "losted" in terms of $EN?
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:49 pm

df wrote:
Is anybody surprised at what has been "gained" in terms of $B compared to what has been "losted" in terms of $EN?

I am not familiar with "losted''. Tom D, your the dictionary man. Could you help me out?

So df, what is the spread on these two factors? Just what are you getting at?

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RobertMac



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Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:56 pm

df wrote:
What are the underlying traits that you call function?
good disposition, healthy, reproductive with minimum or no inputs other than forage
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:03 pm

No problem Boots, LOSTED is actually an acronym that stands for "Looked Over, Squandered, Trashed, Effectively Destroyed".
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:18 pm

I'm just thinking of the argument of how much has been given up from low cow maintenance to get growth and carcass value.

I am wondering how to identify a group of cows that are the highest profit cows for my area, cows that don't need to be selected for "more" of anything. Then when I have those cows, how to duplicate them consistently, reducing my culling and increasing consistency and to continue this breeding program with accuracy.

I am wondering how a commercial producer will be able to make sire selection that moves him in the right direction, when that direction might be different compared to seedstock producers due to his goals.

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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:32 pm

df wrote:
I'm just thinking of the argument of how much has been given up from low cow maintenance to get growth and carcass value.

I am wondering how to identify a group of cows that are the highest profit cows for my area, cows that don't need to be selected for "more" of anything. Then when I have those cows, how to duplicate them consistently, reducing my culling and increasing consistency and to continue this breeding program with accuracy.

I am wondering how a commercial producer will be able to make sire selection that moves him in the right direction, when that direction might be different compared to seedstock producers due to his goals.


An index of indexes is in order?

There are some fairly high $B with lower $en values. I don't know if they mean anything.

You still have to SEE them though df.

Thanks for the help Tom, I was feeling a little Losted, confused, discombobulated and such. I am over it.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:06 pm

Is the meeting at Red Lodge the "type conference"?
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Hilly



Posts : 429
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:31 pm

df wrote:
Is the meeting at Red Lodge the "type conference"?

Yes, the independent type Razz
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:15 pm

Quote :
Are there any traits that are priorities, regardless of environment, for profit?

Fertility within profitable limits, longevity with acceptable production, functional feet, legs, udders and disposition. Maximum production levels can be average of the animals that exhibit the abilty to make it through the first sentance.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:21 pm

df wrote:
I'm just thinking of the argument of how much has been given up from low cow maintenance to get growth and carcass value.

I am wondering how to identify a group of cows that are the highest profit cows for my area, cows that don't need to be selected for "more" of anything. Then when I have those cows, how to duplicate them consistently, reducing my culling and increasing consistency and to continue this breeding program with accuracy.

I am wondering how a commercial producer will be able to make sire selection that moves him in the right direction, when that direction might be different compared to seedstock producers due to his goals.

df,
why do we want/need more from ONE cow... why can`t we just use more cows if neccessary to convert the same amount of grass/feed/inputs to the same amount of beef?
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df



Posts : 662
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:08 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
I'm just thinking of the argument of how much has been given up from low cow maintenance to get growth and carcass value.

I am wondering how to identify a group of cows that are the highest profit cows for my area, cows that don't need to be selected for "more" of anything. Then when I have those cows, how to duplicate them consistently, reducing my culling and increasing consistency and to continue this breeding program with accuracy.

I am wondering how a commercial producer will be able to make sire selection that moves him in the right direction, when that direction might be different compared to seedstock producers due to his goals.

df,
why do we want/need more from ONE cow... why can`t we just use more cows if neccessary to convert the same amount of grass/feed/inputs to the same amount of beef?

I don't know that we need more from ONE cow. How will the ONE cow be selected?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:18 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
I'm just thinking of the argument of how much has been given up from low cow maintenance to get growth and carcass value.

I am wondering how to identify a group of cows that are the highest profit cows for my area, cows that don't need to be selected for "more" of anything. Then when I have those cows, how to duplicate them consistently, reducing my culling and increasing consistency and to continue this breeding program with accuracy.

I am wondering how a commercial producer will be able to make sire selection that moves him in the right direction, when that direction might be different compared to seedstock producers due to his goals.

df,
why do we want/need more from ONE cow... why can`t we just use more cows if neccessary to convert the same amount of grass/feed/inputs to the same amount of beef?

I don't know that we need more from ONE cow. How will the ONE cow be selected?
LAZY wording...I don`t think any particular size/level of performance will prevail, just a type...with freedom of problems...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:43 am

Back to physical evaluations..........known in some circles as livestock judging Surprised
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:39 am

df wrote:
Back to physical evaluations..........known in some circles as livestock judging Surprised
we have a lurker who is a collegiate judging team coach...I really don`t know what is taught these days...there was only "one ideal" in my old days...
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Bob H



Posts : 425
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:37 am

It is interesting to me that people look at one cow and start their conversation when it is the population that will make or break you. As far as finding a herd of cattle that are low input don't look for fancy pickups and great structures for cows to support with fancy feedlots and feed trucks with Ted Turner land standing under them.

Pretty simple look for real world people that are honest with a population of their own cattle and you will have a start in finding good functioning cattle that may work in the real world. Bob H
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df



Posts : 662
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:54 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Are there any traits that are priorities, regardless of environment, for profit?

Fertility within profitable limits, longevity with acceptable production, functional feet, legs, udders and disposition. Maximum production levels can be average of the animals that exhibit the abilty to make it through the first sentance.

If a breeder recorded the year the cows left the herd and the reasons, a case could be made that some sires simply produce daughters that stay in the herd longer. In some places, they call it stayability. At least that is what it is called by Red Angus, Simmental, Gelbvieh, and Limousin breeders. Very Happy
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df



Posts : 662
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:55 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Back to physical evaluations..........known in some circles as livestock judging Surprised
we have a lurker who is a collegiate judging team coach...I really don`t know what is taught these days...there was only "one ideal" in my old days...

Have him post pictures of females and bulls selected for maternal function. Smile
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:33 pm

df wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Are there any traits that are priorities, regardless of environment, for profit?

Fertility within profitable limits, longevity with acceptable production, functional feet, legs, udders and disposition. Maximum production levels can be average of the animals that exhibit the abilty to make it through the first sentance.

If a breeder recorded the year the cows left the herd and the reasons, a case could be made that some sires simply produce daughters that stay in the herd longer. In some places, they call it stayability. At least that is what it is called by Red Angus, Simmental, Gelbvieh, and Limousin breeders. Very Happy


There is a problem here, I just cannot put my finger on it. Stayability EPD's. It seems rather futile to me. Basically we would have a dead bull before the numbers became relevant, The Sire would long since be dead and gone. The Dams would be really old, or already be Wendy's square hamburgers. I guess it would have some value in making some old dead bull club members less valuable. Other than that I don't get it. It still has us using bulls out of old cows, out of bulls out of old cows, that are old bulls.


Bootheel......currently not for sale
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:35 pm

Most females fall out after their first or second calf. The sires of those females, nor their relatives, are really all that old.

You probably pick your maternal sires in which you expect their daughters to stay in the herd. Do you only pick old bulls out of old cows or do you realize you will have to draw on other information in that process?
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:12 pm

df wrote:
Most females fall out after their first or second calf. The sires of those females, nor their relatives, are really all that old.

You probably pick your maternal sires in which you expect their daughters to stay in the herd. Do you only pick old bulls out of old cows or do you realize you will have to draw on other information in that process?

I wanted to make a mean, smart alecy comment, but the angel pushed the devil aside from my conscious, temporily at least.

DF, they either have to old to get Proven, or not. We could stack these up and get some more accuraccy for the sake of EPD's, but why?

The latest greatest get sold at 7 in production sales all across the land, you know, while they still have value, many even at 5 for the sake of generation turnover, to abuse the numbers system, as worthwhile and flawed as it is.

How do you differentiate between sold and culled. Me, give them a 0%, if sold before 3, 25% if sold before 10, regardless of reported reason for sale. So you have a bull that is realistcally 6 before making his way from being a 0, to 12 before being a 25. They get a 100% if making it to 14.

Trailblazer awards will be given to those that make it to 20, the ceremony in which involves burning and humiliating all pathfinders from the party.

The system you have described exists, while selecting for performance, called the starving comedian Pathfinder club. It means piddly squat.


Later


Bootsy the friendly Ghost


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df



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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:15 pm

Your reply was better than I expected.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Variation - bell shaped curve   Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:21 pm

well, at least you caused me to look at heifer preg data...the most popular bull in the breed is among the worst...think anyone really cares?
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