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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:02 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.

Thats another flawed conclusion - they were "developed" in Scotland Wink
I guess I just failed my AAA test. Embarassed
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:19 am

Quote :
The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.

Does that mean we need to getting back on the boat and giving the USA back to the original folks, too? Any chance to climatize?
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RobertMac



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Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:14 pm

It's 1:00pm in the South...do you know where your black cattle are????
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MKeeney
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Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:04 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:
DF, i am in no position to be specific about which hormones may be out of balance. No doubt though the women I see on occasion who need to shave have a different balance than those that exude glowing natural femininity. Or the men who have the voice of a woman, or the women who have the voice of a man. Or like Mike says the cow that sheds way slower or fails to re breed, or the bull that looks flat and steer like. All expressions of a different balance and more or less suited to specific functions.
a little tidbit I found...decided to put it here, because this thread deserves more reading and posting...
1) Identifying and culling open heifers early will remove sub-fertile females from the herd. Lifetime cow studies from Montana indicated that properly developed heifers that were exposed to fertile bulls, but DID NOT become pregnant were often sub-fertile compared to the heifers that did conceive. In fact, when the heifers that failed to breed in the first breeding season were followed throughout their lifetimes, they averaged a 55% yearly calf crop. Despite the fact that reproduction is not a highly heritable trait, it also makes sense to remove this genetic material from the herd so as to not proliferate females that are difficult to get bred.
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Mean Spirit



Posts : 321
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:18 pm

I have a heifer that was once my favorite-- she'll be two on August 1, exposed to a fertile bull since November (her dear father). Still open by my palpation in May, her contemporaries (and paternal sibs) are now starting to spring a little bit. I planned to cull her, but she made me mad, so I wailed on her with a T-post. That'll teach her to be open in my herd.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:28 pm

RobertMac wrote:
The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.

maybe it`s not a flawed conclusion, but a hen/egg question...so the slick haired cows had calves that were heavier...did the slick hair cause the calves to be heavier, or was the slick hair a result of better functioning cows?
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:33 pm

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.

maybe it`s not a flawed conclusion, but a hen/egg question...so the slick haired cows had calves that were heavier...did the slick hair cause the calves to be heavier, or was the slick hair a result of better functioning cows?

Some have hair issues. Some have other underlying issues resulting in hair issues. I think there is a difference, sometimes at least. Incidently I hit myself in the head, way before these other issues came about, prophetic maybe. I like to think so.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:39 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:
DF, i am in no position to be specific about which hormones may be out of balance. No doubt though the women I see on occasion who need to shave have a different balance than those that exude glowing natural femininity. Or the men who have the voice of a woman, or the women who have the voice of a man. Or like Mike says the cow that sheds way slower or fails to re breed, or the bull that looks flat and steer like. All expressions of a different balance and more or less suited to specific functions.
a little tidbit I found...decided to put it here, because this thread deserves more reading and posting...
1) Identifying and culling open heifers early will remove sub-fertile females from the herd. Lifetime cow studies from Montana indicated that properly developed heifers that were exposed to fertile bulls, but DID NOT become pregnant were often sub-fertile compared to the heifers that did conceive. In fact, when the heifers that failed to breed in the first breeding season were followed throughout their lifetimes, they averaged a 55% yearly calf crop. Despite the fact that reproduction is not a highly heritable trait, it also makes sense to remove this genetic material from the herd so as to not proliferate females that are difficult to get bred.

I have read something to this effect "the cycling heifer failing to breed is a fertility issue, the open cow is an adaptability issue"
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:13 am

MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:
DF, i am in no position to be specific about which hormones may be out of balance. No doubt though the women I see on occasion who need to shave have a different balance than those that exude glowing natural femininity. Or the men who have the voice of a woman, or the women who have the voice of a man. Or like Mike says the cow that sheds way slower or fails to re breed, or the bull that looks flat and steer like. All expressions of a different balance and more or less suited to specific functions.
a little tidbit I found...decided to put it here, because this thread deserves more reading and posting...
1) Identifying and culling open heifers early will remove sub-fertile females from the herd. Lifetime cow studies from Montana indicated that properly developed heifers that were exposed to fertile bulls, but DID NOT become pregnant were often sub-fertile compared to the heifers that did conceive. In fact, when the heifers that failed to breed in the first breeding season were followed throughout their lifetimes, they averaged a 55% yearly calf crop. Despite the fact that reproduction is not a highly heritable trait, it also makes sense to remove this genetic material from the herd so as to not proliferate females that are difficult to get bred.

I have read something to this effect "the cycling heifer failing to breed is a fertility issue, the open cow is an adaptability issue"

Does it matter if it is a fertility issue or an adaptability issue if an animal is open at preg check time either way their will be no calf to sell in the next year? Sell the opens and learn to like the ones that are carrying a calf.
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Mean Spirit



Posts : 321
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:56 am

I'd say it matters Pat. Adaptability in cows to me means something about nutrition, or fleshing, or partitioning of energy, or something like that, whether it's related to capacity, hair shedding, or whatever. Maybe you change her environment and she's a good cow. The cycling heifer failing to breed, like my heifer that I hit with t post to teach a lesson, no amount of nutritional advantage is going to help her. She's just bad, all over the world bad, and I made sure she knew it.

I was going to finish this by pointing out how it made some difference for selection purposes, but I guess it doesn't. So I'd say maybe you're right. Doesn't matter a lot--- you'd surely not want a whole lot of either group hanging around.
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df



Posts : 613
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:19 am

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.

maybe it`s not a flawed conclusion, but a hen/egg question...so the slick haired cows had calves that were heavier...did the slick hair cause the calves to be heavier, or was the slick hair a result of better functioning cows?

Gosh MK, are you turning into a scientist? Very Happy

Is it worth spending any (tax payer) money on this question?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:00 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.

maybe it`s not a flawed conclusion, but a hen/egg question...so the slick haired cows had calves that were heavier...did the slick hair cause the calves to be heavier, or was the slick hair a result of better functioning cows?

Gosh MK, are you turning into a scientist? Very Happy

Is it worth spending any (tax payer) money on this question?

Gosh MK, are you turning into a scientist?
all cattle breeders are researchers...doesn`t that make me a scientist?


Is it worth spending any (tax payer) money on this question
not unless the taxpayer funded scientists can reach valid conclusions...which they didn`t quite get done here...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:35 pm

What is your conclusion to the poster?
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:55 pm

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.

maybe it`s not a flawed conclusion, but a hen/egg question...so the slick haired cows had calves that were heavier...did the slick hair cause the calves to be heavier, or was the slick hair a result of better functioning cows?
Yes, better functioning endocrine system from genes that are a better match to the prevailing environment.
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