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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:58 am

Dylan, One thing that may apply to the cultural training is, in my pastures, I put out salt/mineral in the catch pens only. I give cubes, as a treat or bait, only in the catch pens. All my cows associate the pens as a good place to be. Several years ago, on a hot windy day, a fire broke out along I-70 which is 6 miles south of one of my pastures. I was nearly frantic knowing it was headed straight north towards my cows. I got to the pasture to find every cow and calf standing in the catch pen....as if waiting for me. This spring, after going to grass, I was checking cows. There were three cows with their calves in the pen. That seemed a little odd to me as no others were around the pen. Those three calves had pneumonia. Now, the down side to this is, in several remote locations, I chain and padlock the catch pen gates open. Never know who might consider becoming a cattle rustler.
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:05 am

I turn my cattle out in 25,000 acres and they get all the culture exchange they can, some cannot adjust but most do.
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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:31 am

25,000 acres of grass is found only in my dreams, and those are good dreams! I've got a 800 acres in one location and it goes down from that. Cow training is more feasible than in your situation, W.T. Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:53 am

RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
How does the endocrine system get out of balance and how long can it stay in that state before being corrected?
I'll be your huckleberry...doesn't the endocrine system get its signals from the nervous system which reacts to the environment, internal and external? So, correct the environment and the "out of balance" is corrected? If the "out of balance" is genetic, wouldn't that take a few generations to correct?

Let's get more specific; what specific hormones are out of balance?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:53 am

Quote :
Below is the most successful dairy influenced cow we ever had - produced to 16, reared twins twice and was just the gentlest, smartest cow to be around. Wintered in a tie stall barn where each cow had a trough in front of them her party trick was dropping to her knees and stretching her neck and tongue full length to eat part of her stall mates grain ration before starting to eat her own. Breed make up was 50% South Devon, 25% Hereford, 25% Ayrshire. Her daughters and grand daughters were always a dissapointment in comparison - we could never reproduce her goodness successfully.

Did you breed her to "maternal type" bulls to create replacements or production type bulls that most use? Is there a limit on crossbreeding when all gets resorted enough that we cannot put Humpty Dumpty back together again?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:52 pm

RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
How does the endocrine system get out of balance and how long can it stay in that state before being corrected?
I'll be your huckleberry...doesn't the endocrine system get its signals from the nervous system which reacts to the environment, internal and external? So, correct the environment and the "out of balance" is corrected? If the "out of balance" is genetic, wouldn't that take a few generations to correct?

I am having a hard time figuring out how the endocrine system can be out of balance for very long. There are lots of feedback to correct any problems. Some problems are corrected within minutes of being detected. I would think it would be a rare event for this system to malfunction.

I would agree that some animals are more adapted to the environment than others; however, I would wonder how much variation there is within a breed.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:00 pm

df wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
How does the endocrine system get out of balance and how long can it stay in that state before being corrected?
I'll be your huckleberry...doesn't the endocrine system get its signals from the nervous system which reacts to the environment, internal and external? So, correct the environment and the "out of balance" is corrected? If the "out of balance" is genetic, wouldn't that take a few generations to correct?

I am having a hard time figuring out how the endocrine system can be out of balance for very long. There are lots of feedback to correct any problems. Some problems are corrected within minutes of being detected. I would think it would be a rare event for this system to malfunction.

I would agree that some animals are more adapted to the environment than others; however, I would wonder how much variation there is within a breed.
df,
I doubt any of us here have studied the endoctrine system; so are either assuming, or repeating what has been passed down...so I think your question is valid...soo, why does one cow shed her hair and another doesn`t of the same breed anbd genetics running on the same feed?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:41 pm

DF, i am in no position to be specific about which hormones may be out of balance. No doubt though the women I see on occasion who need to shave have a different balance than those that exude glowing natural femininity. Or the men who have the voice of a woman, or the women who have the voice of a man. Or like Mike says the cow that sheds way slower or fails to re breed, or the bull that looks flat and steer like. All expressions of a different balance and more or less suited to specific functions.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:54 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
How does the endocrine system get out of balance and how long can it stay in that state before being corrected?
I'll be your huckleberry...doesn't the endocrine system get its signals from the nervous system which reacts to the environment, internal and external? So, correct the environment and the "out of balance" is corrected? If the "out of balance" is genetic, wouldn't that take a few generations to correct?

I am having a hard time figuring out how the endocrine system can be out of balance for very long. There are lots of feedback to correct any problems. Some problems are corrected within minutes of being detected. I would think it would be a rare event for this system to malfunction.

I would agree that some animals are more adapted to the environment than others; however, I would wonder how much variation there is within a breed.
df,
I doubt any of us here have studied the endoctrine system; so are either assuming, or repeating what has been passed down...so I think your question is valid...soo, why does one cow shed her hair and another doesn`t of the same breed anbd genetics running on the same feed?

In the case of living on fescue, the exposure to the endophyte fungus greatly reduces prolactin levels, which reduces milk production. It has been hypothesized prolactin is also important to cattle shedding their hair.

I don't know anybody who culls cows based on shedding hair outside of the fescue belt. I would think a cow that raises a nice calf and is bred back is retained regardless of how "hairy" she is.

I think tolerance to endophyte infected fescue varies within a breed; however, the root to this tolerance is genetic, not the endocrine system itself. The animal responds by releasing hormones, which should help it achieve homeostasis. However there is a lot that is not known as it relates to epistasis.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:55 pm

df wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
How does the endocrine system get out of balance and how long can it stay in that state before being corrected?
I'll be your huckleberry...doesn't the endocrine system get its signals from the nervous system which reacts to the environment, internal and external? So, correct the environment and the "out of balance" is corrected? If the "out of balance" is genetic, wouldn't that take a few generations to correct?

Let's get more specific; what specific hormones are out of balance?
estrogen?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:56 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:
DF, i am in no position to be specific about which hormones may be out of balance. No doubt though the women I see on occasion who need to shave have a different balance than those that exude glowing natural femininity. Or the men who have the voice of a woman, or the women who have the voice of a man. Or like Mike says the cow that sheds way slower or fails to re breed, or the bull that looks flat and steer like. All expressions of a different balance and more or less suited to specific functions.

But this might be due to when genes are turned on and off due to exposure to sutle changes in the environment. It may not be some huge genetic variation. Is that possible?

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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:03 pm

RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
How does the endocrine system get out of balance and how long can it stay in that state before being corrected?
I'll be your huckleberry...doesn't the endocrine system get its signals from the nervous system which reacts to the environment, internal and external? So, correct the environment and the "out of balance" is corrected? If the "out of balance" is genetic, wouldn't that take a few generations to correct?

Let's get more specific; what specific hormones are out of balance?
estrogen?

I don't know. There are probably variation in the number of estrogen receptors, which may or may not benefit the animal. Intuitively we might think it is an automatic benefit but can they be "overdosed"?

I view hormone levels as having optimums and then in regard as a ratio to something else. A single hormone would have an "offsetting" hormone to keep that balance.

Some hormones also "pulse" the system such as FSH to stimulate follicles. But it is not a hormone that is flowing all of the time.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:03 pm

I've observed that cows that don't shed well, generally will be the ones that don't raise a good calf, don't breed back, or are more susceptible to parasites...they fall out of my program sooner than later.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:04 pm

Is the month of birth important to shedding hair? Do females born in certain months have more or less reproductive success because the right genes got turned on or off to benefit the animal?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:09 pm

A good point from DV, My only point on the inbred 6807 cattle that I worked with had to do with the internal fat surrounding the reproductive tracts, but some exhibited masculine looking necks and overall appearance also. Then a frail "Jersey" type would always breed up. Shoshone cattle are the most fertile cattle I have had experience with, what makes this so? DV

It in all likely hood is a reflection of a specific hormonal balance. The function type correlation or type function, depending on what side of the coin you are looking at is evident reality regardless of specific hormones.

Bonsma said the hormonal balance book had 5 chapters to be read, Hair, Hide, Bone, Muscle and Fat, reading and comprehending those chapters takes a bit of an artful eye, the artist DV is helps his observation. Whether seen and or read the chapters are there.

DF, from a pragmatic functional standpoint re subtle environmental effects, there are cattle that carry on "undisturbed" so to speak regardless. The cattle that don't have the predisposition to being effected by subtle environmental influences.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:36 pm

Interesting points, Dylan. You have given me some things to think of from a new angle. Is the phenotype we see a function of getting good genes, heterosis or the endocrine system? How would we determine which?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:45 am

df wrote:
Is the phenotype we see a function of getting good genes, heterosis or the endocrine system? How would we determine which?
The potential of the phenotype is set at conception by the genes inherited from each parent. Wouldn't "how good the genes are" be determined by how well the genes and the systems they develop match the environment they're in?

I've read that reproduction is the most sensitive indicator of a properly functioning endocrine system...it is the most important economical indicator for the cow/calf producer.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:26 pm

So how does crossbreeding fit into the system?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:44 pm

RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
Is the phenotype we see a function of getting good genes, heterosis or the endocrine system? How would we determine which?
The potential of the phenotype is set at conception by the genes inherited from each parent. Wouldn't "how good the genes are" be determined by how well the genes and the systems they develop match the environment they're in?

I've read that reproduction is the most sensitive indicator of a properly functioning endocrine system...it is the most important economical indicator for the cow/calf producer.

How do you select the best heifers that go on to be profitable cows? There must be some phenotypic indicators that breeders rely on.
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:33 pm

DF, Not scientific, but I look for health in cattle. Of course one starts selection by slick hair, shedding, Bonsma type. Beyond that it takes actual experience to pick the most functional ones. I have cows that have never had pinkeye, footrot or any of the common diseases and their calves don't have them either. Poor cows calves get some sickness nearly every year and are often malnurished looking. Some cows are just lethargic and tired acting, I think they don't feel well and aren't functioning well. Their heads are hanging down a lot of the time. They have watery eyes and snotty noses often for no apperant reason. They appear to have allergies. Extremes of weather bothers them more, they are the pond dellers in summer. Every time there is a change in the weather they get a snotty nose and appear to have cold-like symptoms for a few days. Good cows are usually pretty clean, poor ones are usually mud and manure all over from standing, panting in a mud hole in hot weather. They stand around humped up and froze acting in winter. They are more affected by parasites. Hard looking, hard doers. I call these "fringe cows" The good feeling functioning cows are the leaders and bosses of the herd. The poor cows are always tailing at the back or around the fringe of the herd. Good cows take the best of everthing and run the herd, poor ones get the leftovers. The herd members know the stronger healthier cows from the sickly sisters. Pecking order.

Of course there is fertility. I had a cow calve today with her 4th calf. She started out as a 2006 born heifer calving in late October 2008. In 2009 she calved in Sept. Last year she calved in late July. She calved today June 15th, 2011. This cow is fully functional, very healthy acting, has energy, is a herd leader. I am letting the bulls run with the cows as a way to test fertility, the good ones move up, the poor ones lose ground. I only pull the bulls so not to have any calves in Dec, Jan, Feb.

In young cattle it is harder to pick the healthiest ones because they are all growing and the growth hormones mask their true genetic hormonal level and balance. They often appear better than they really are. You can sort out the more extreme sometimes sick, snotty nose slow growers, but often you have to let them raise a couple of calves to really sort them. When the growth hormone stops, the true well being of the animal is more evident at least in my opinion.

A wordy answer. Charles in the vinicity of healthy cows. Semen catalogs are full of poor doers in the real world.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:39 am

df wrote:
So how does crossbreeding fit into the system?
I've been closed herd, single breed since 2001...crossbreeding would have to come from my neighbor's bulls...except my two closest neighbor's bulls are my bulls. Brought back a bull from one neighbor last year to breed...will use one from the other this year.

df wrote:
How do you select the best heifers that go on to be profitable cows? There must be some phenotypic indicators that breeders rely on.
The unscientific answer is...when they become profitable cows.
I'm small enough I keep most all my heifers(at weaning, cull disposition problems, anything that's been sick, anything that isn't close to average)...then give them every chance possible to cull themselves. Usually the ones I like, more often than not, get culled. Function first.

I'm not a "breeder".
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:51 pm

a good little piece of research; flawed in it`s conclusions IMHO Smile
http://msucares.com/nmrec/events/pac_poster_pdfs/angus_hair_shedding.pdf
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:21 am

Quote :
There were no differences found in BCS due to month of first shedding (MFS)

Dams who began to shed by May had offspring that were 24 lbs. heavier at weaning.

Heritability for weaning weight = 0.27
Heritability for shedding = 0.35
Genetic Correlation = -0.50

Seems to go against my observation on BSC. The cows that hid in the shade were not out eating lost weight. And it seems odd that the EPDs for WW and MM were ignored in relation to the heavier weaning weights, apparently not adjusted?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:48 am

The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:55 am

RobertMac wrote:
The flawed conclusion is that a breed developed in England should be raised in an environment best suited for bos indicus...that is "out of balance" endocrine system.

Thats another flawed conclusion - they were "developed" in Scotland Wink
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