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Dylan Biggs



Posts : 396
Join date : 2011-03-07

PostSubject: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:27 pm


Some mix and stir cows.

11 year old 64K

14 year old 123G

5 yr old 14s

4 yr old 1/2 jersey

6 yr old 42R with "a magical touch of Jersey" A Jim Leachman quote.

A 2 yr old cocktail steer to be killed off of grass shortly, nice hide.

6 yr old 97R, touched with Jersey again.


11 yr old 62J

Registered Angus pair, calf from a 1/2 sib mating.

15 yr old, a never miss, our oldest producing commercial cow.

A very masculine cow belonging to my daughter Maria that she refused to part with when she missed
for her second calf. A registered EXT 6807 derivative.

My oldest daughter Jocelyn, a happy helper.



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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:04 pm

Some beautiful scenery shots as usual Dylan and I could look at cow pictures all day, it's always interesting to see them and the owners comments of good, bad or indifferent and trying to train your eye to fit the facts.
One thing I don't understand though - why the Jersey infusion? I would have thought the tough environmental conditions that you have outlined before, particularly the regular droughts and resulting sparse pastures would have made using a dairy x cow an unwise choice. Or does the Jersey contribute less milk than the average high performance Angus cow?
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:36 pm

Good to see you are getting back in house again, away from skeeters or mossies, eh. Sure is hard to mix hick speak and whatever dialect you furiners speak.

Nice post, of a post.

Tiger stripes rock.

Crossbreeding doesn't belong here, Remember?

Your cows are old, obsolete, you'll never make progress Wink Rolling Eyes Mad Razz

Is it summer there now? or is there such a thing?

Speaking of which, where the heck is the weatherman at, did he drown, fall off a snowbank, get too Old, lose his Timer? I'm worried and haven't ventured outside for days, in eager anticipation of current climatology in Little Siberia.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:39 pm

As always, a beautiful photographic journey...is it a contradiction to like a "beef" cow that you can see "dairy"/Jersey influence in? As Eddie asked LL, do our, mine at least, eyeball preferences match economic reality?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:41 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Some beautiful scenery shots as usual Dylan and I could look at cow pictures all day, it's always interesting to see them and the owners comments of good, bad or indifferent and trying to train your eye to fit the facts.
One thing I don't understand though - why the Jersey infusion? I would have thought the tough environmental conditions that you have outlined before, particularly the regular droughts and resulting sparse pastures would have made using a dairy x cow an unwise choice. Or does the Jersey contribute less milk than the average high performance Angus cow?

I have been and will continue to be a habitual experimenter. That is what got me started with line breeding my Angus cattle.

Some wrecks along the way, keeps life interesting though.

The Jersey deal was a result of a heifer breeding experiment in the mid 80's.

The astounding thing about the Jersey influence is the amazing fertility in spite of the milk and thin appearance.

Made me re evaluate fertility in a number of different contexts.

Guaranteed the milking ability udder size and depth in most of the 1/2 bloods with calving on green grass was over the top.

So I don't want a whole herd of Jerseys, 1/2 Jerseys or a herd of Angus cows that look and produce like Jerseys, but a 1/4 or even an 1/8 has never proven a liability in our commercial cocktail cows, to the contrary actually.

My previous oldest producing cow ever here was a half Jersey, 16 and had been put through the ringer.



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Dylan Biggs



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Join date : 2011-03-07

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:48 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Good to see you are getting back in house again, away from skeeters or mossies, eh. Sure is hard to mix hick speak and whatever dialect you furiners speak.

Nice post, of a post.

Tiger stripes rock.

Crossbreeding doesn't belong here, Remember?

Your cows are old, obsolete, you'll never make progress Wink Rolling Eyes Mad Razz

Is it summer there now? or is there such a thing?

Speaking of which, where the heck is the weatherman at, did he drown, fall off a snowbank, get too Old, lose his Timer? I'm worried and haven't ventured outside for days, in eager anticipation of current climatology in Little Siberia.

Bootheel, this was on June 4th.

Smile
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:57 pm

MKeeney wrote:
As always, a beautiful photographic journey...is it a contradiction to like a "beef" cow that you can see "dairy"/Jersey influence in? As Eddie asked LL, do our, mine at least, eyeball preferences match economic reality?

Re contradiction, I use to think so. For a lot of years I selected for the "tank" beef cow and away from the goose necked cow. Now my preference is more the middle of the road, and seems to be safer to err on the goose necked side instaed of the box car side. Seems to be more endocrine balance in cows like the one from Murray Fraser below.



I like to think my eyeball preference is a little closer to matching economic reality, but the safest bet here for identifying the cows that work is to put them to the test. The range of possible genetic combination's usually assures exceptions to most any and all rules and or preferences.


Last edited by Dylan Biggs on Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:59 pm

Dylan, is the fat color in the meat affected by the percentage Jersey?
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:02 pm

I am a bit late in my response, Dylan, but as you just replied, a little dairy blood can be a wonderful thing in a commercial beef cow. About 1/4 worked the best for me. Super fertility too as you stated. Dairy/beef cross cows would all calve in a month. If bred to a terminal beef bull you couldn't see the dairy in the calf.

I am beginning to think that dairy cows in general are better convertors of forage and feedstuffs into usable products than beef cattle. Grass based dairy guys say they are getting 10,000-12,000 lbs of milk in a lacatation on forage. If there was a way to compare forage produced dairy milk to the weaning wt of a beef cow, I would think the milk would be more production per cow on a given amount of forage.

Charles
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:11 pm

Tom D, we have killed cattle into our own meat business for 16 years now and the Jersey influence to date, even when killed off the green native pastures in our country, the fat is no different in color then from our Angus or any of our other cross bred cattle.

Charles, what Dairy breed did you use?
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:19 pm

In the "New Kingdom", all seedstock providers would have had to have owned some commercial cows before calling themselves seedstock suppliers. Jersey cross, longhorn cross, other pure sins, will be a requirement to invited to court. Not criminal court, but the royal court, where the jester hangs out. Sir Dylan is first in line for my champion. The other varmints trying to gain access to the royal hen house, will be quickly laid to waste, by the gatekeepers of the Northland. The East already being in capable hands, is well fortified. The Kingdoms of the Southwest are starting to fall into line.


Well done fellow loyal subjects.


Bootheel
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:23 pm

Used Jerseys & Holstiens both. Bred the dairy cows to a Line 1 Hereford bull. The resulting heifers were then bred Angus to make calves to sell. Saved some of the 3 way cross heifers, they did good too as cows. Maybe better than the 1/2 dairy beef cows. Weaned 700-750 lb calves just on forages, breedback was great.
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:30 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:
Tom D, we have killed cattle into our own meat business for 16 years now and the Jersey influence to date, even when killed off the green native pastures in our country, the fat is no different in color then from our Angus or any of our other cross bred cattle.

Charles, what Dairy breed did you use?


Dylan My mother raised a herd of Jersey cattle for many years some lived into their mid twenty's we crossed them on Angus and they made some good cows the heavy milkers stayed in the Dairy herd and the light milkers went into the beef herd. They made very good cow's. she bred AI and had a outstanding dairy herd that was not registered, she had kept a few bulls that were polled that passed on polled dairy cattle. When she retired at 80 years old she had assembled quite a high quality herd. My brother has the herd of crossbred Angus X Jersey, and they are a pretty fair herd of cattle. they are deep bodied and have level top lines with nice tidy udders even when calved in June i have been supplying him bulls and am not sure if i am helping or hurting his herd. Tom D what color of fat do Jersey's have? the one's i have seen are yellow when grass fed and white when corn fed?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:34 pm

Bootheel wrote:
In the "New Kingdom", all seedstock providers would have had to have owned some commercial cows before calling themselves seedstock suppliers. Jersey cross, longhorn cross, other pure sins, will be a requirement to invited to court. Not criminal court, but the royal court, where the jester hangs out. Sir Dylan is first in line for my champion. The other varmints trying to gain access to the royal hen house, will be quickly laid to waste, by the gatekeepers of the Northland. The East already being in capable hands, is well fortified. The Kingdoms of the Southwest are starting to fall into line.


Well done fellow loyal subjects.


Bootheel

Oh Bootheel I am indeed a pure sinner, a heathen of the worst sort, as this year I am going to breed my pure bred Longhorns to a half Jersey 1/2 Tarentaise bull, I will be going to hell for that one for sure. Laughing Laughing

Loyal Subject

Dylan Squire Biggs

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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:39 pm

W.T wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:
Tom D, we have killed cattle into our own meat business for 16 years now and the Jersey influence to date, even when killed off the green native pastures in our country, the fat is no different in color then from our Angus or any of our other cross bred cattle.

Charles, what Dairy breed did you use?


Dylan My mother raised a herd of Jersey cattle for many years some lived into their mid twenty's we crossed them on Angus and they made some good cows the heavy milkers stayed in the Dairy herd and the light milkers went into the beef herd. They made very good cow's. she bred AI and had a outstanding dairy herd that was not registered, she had kept a few bulls that were polled that passed on polled dairy cattle. When she retired at 80 years old she had assembled quite a high quality herd. My brother has the herd of crossbred Angus X Jersey, and they are a pretty fair herd of cattle. they are deep bodied and have level top lines with nice tidy udders even when calved in June i have been supplying him bulls and am not sure if i am helping or hurting his herd. Tom D what color of fat do Jersey's have? the one's i have seen are yellow when grass fed and white when corn fed?

W.T, you are pulling at my heart strings. Jerseys are my favorite and any Lady who devoted her life to her Jerseys must have been an special person indeed, in my eyes at least. Retired at eighty, WOW, what a gal, must be that wonderful Jersey milk that nurtured her own longevity.
Thank you for sharing that. Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:07 am

Dylan Biggs wrote:
W.T wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:
Tom D, we have killed cattle into our own meat business for 16 years now and the Jersey influence to date, even when killed off the green native pastures in our country, the fat is no different in color then from our Angus or any of our other cross bred cattle.

Charles, what Dairy breed did you use?


Dylan My mother raised a herd of Jersey cattle for many years some lived into their mid twenty's we crossed them on Angus and they made some good cows the heavy milkers stayed in the Dairy herd and the light milkers went into the beef herd. They made very good cow's. she bred AI and had a outstanding dairy herd that was not registered, she had kept a few bulls that were polled that passed on polled dairy cattle. When she retired at 80 years old she had assembled quite a high quality herd. My brother has the herd of crossbred Angus X Jersey, and they are a pretty fair herd of cattle. they are deep bodied and have level top lines with nice tidy udders even when calved in June i have been supplying him bulls and am not sure if i am helping or hurting his herd. Tom D what color of fat do Jersey's have? the one's i have seen are yellow when grass fed and white when corn fed?

W.T, you are pulling at my heart strings. Jerseys are my favorite and any Lady who devoted her life to her Jerseys must have been an special person indeed, in my eyes at least. Retired at eighty, WOW, what a gal, must be that wonderful Jersey milk that nurtured her own longevity.
Thank you for sharing that. Very Happy Very Happy

Do not mean to get personal but she is quite a lady. Served in the Pacific and has never taken a step backward in her life. The great generation is leaving us at a very fast rate, and we must honor their sacrifice. It is funny that Mother's raise son's and Father's raise Daughters.
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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:24 am

Well that's interesting discovering how well part dairy blooded cows do in various areas of north America. That certainly was not my experience in the wet, raw climate of Scotland. My dad had a dairy originally with Ayrshire and shorthorn cows and crosses thereof. He gradually bred them over to more "dual purpose" types and had a multiple suckling enterprise for a while before breeding them further to the beef side. In that climate the economics of dairy influenced cattle were woeful - they had to be wintered under cover versus outside and the additional cost of this was never recovered by increased calf weaning weights. The beef cow industry in the UK for many years was predominantly dairy based - hereford and angus crossed onto Ayrshires, Shorthorns, Friesians and later Holsteins. Once the holstein became the predominant dairy breed that program was in real trouble - big, frail, infertile, short lived cows and poor conformation calves. Most guys have now remedied this by breeding their limo x holstein cows back to limo and keeping the 3 part daughters. That cuts the milk but not sure how it would help the temperment or fertility. My only experience with Jerseys was apparently regularly riding on the back of one when I was about 5 - guess we must have been too poor to have a horse Shocked
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:09 am

Dylan Biggs wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
As always, a beautiful photographic journey...is it a contradiction to like a "beef" cow that you can see "dairy"/Jersey influence in? As Eddie asked LL, do our, mine at least, eyeball preferences match economic reality?

Re contradiction, I use to think so. For a lot of years I selected for the "tank" beef cow and away from the goose necked cow. Now my preference is more the middle of the road, and seems to be safer to err on the goose necked side instaed of the box car side. Seems to be more endocrine balance in cows like the one from Murray Fraser below.



I like to think my eyeball preference is a little closer to matching economic reality, but the safest bet here for identifying the cows that work is to put them to the test. The range of possible genetic combination's usually assures exceptions to most any and all rules and or preferences.
Dylan,
what`s the approx weight of this cow? Amazing what one can do quickly putting together breeds that are masters for certain qualities, rather than the jack-of-all- trades, ever changing "breeds"...I`m looking forward to the year you Alberta guys host our Gathering...but for now, first things first ... Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:54 am

How does the endocrine system get out of balance and how long can it stay in that state before being corrected?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:41 am

Below is the most successful dairy influenced cow we ever had - produced to 16, reared twins twice and was just the gentlest, smartest cow to be around. Wintered in a tie stall barn where each cow had a trough in front of them her party trick was dropping to her knees and stretching her neck and tongue full length to eat part of her stall mates grain ration before starting to eat her own. Breed make up was 50% South Devon, 25% Hereford, 25% Ayrshire. Her daughters and grand daughters were always a dissapointment in comparison - we could never reproduce her goodness successfully.
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:50 am

Mike, I have only seen this cow once, last summer when this photo was taken, I would peg her in the 1250 lb range.

Good point on the futility of the "jack of all and master of none". I have been giving viewers here a little glimpse into my "mad scientist" cattle breeding nature, and having had personal experience with an extreme range of cattle breeds and types I have a hard time figuring out why breed associations would enable their membership in such an attempt.

As far as the Alberta gathering I have already been giving it some thought, I will have to talk to Hilly and GF and see what they think about what sort of fun we could have. Twisted Evil

DF, if you are referring to an individual cow who has demonstrated congenital endocrine imbalance from a reproductive standpoint relative to her in herd contemporaries it is best just to cull her. My daughter refused to let me cull her pet cow so we are seeing if her daughters can be genetically restored to balance.





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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:06 am

I have had little to do with the Jersey breed, but I often thought about using them for, as Mike points out, their more fix traits in a crossbreeding situation. I never did due to the fact according to hearsay Embarassed their dumb trait (poor mothering and decision making skills) was even worst than Holsteins.

We use to A.I our Holsteins heifers to Angus bulls and raise the calves in the same environment as the rest of the dairy stock, in around 1993 we got into beefs cows and after weaning ran most of the holsteins angus cross with the beef cows...

This is when I noticed something that doesn’t really surprise me now but did at the time, the crossbreds raised with the beef cows suddenly lost there “dumb” trait and the ones left with the Dairy cows maintained theirs.

That got me to thinking what other problems were mine and not the cows, and changed the way I observed things with more focus on environment and culture within the herd.
How important is culture in a herd and how do we affect their ability to hand it down to the next generation? Or am I as usual making the simple complicated? Shocked
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:18 am

Hilly give me some specific dumbness examples that may be culturally induced.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:35 am

Calving and not knowing the job has just begun not ended, or things like standing on the pack waiting to be feed, how to beak ice without bloodying you nose, herd predator defence, standing in waist high grass complaining to be moved with no regard for their calves...The Dairy was an extreme example as anything out of our man made routine was an overwhelming decision for them.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Reflective Post   Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:42 am

df wrote:
How does the endocrine system get out of balance and how long can it stay in that state before being corrected?
I'll be your huckleberry...doesn't the endocrine system get its signals from the nervous system which reacts to the environment, internal and external? So, correct the environment and the "out of balance" is corrected? If the "out of balance" is genetic, wouldn't that take a few generations to correct?
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