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 Rank the seven P`s in selection importance

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:29 pm

when buying a bull or semen, in what order would you prioritize these P`s
People
Program
Performance {epds, data}
Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
Profile {DNA}
rank them in order if the priority is to make cows
rank them in order if the priority is to make meat
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:22 pm

when buying a bull or semen, in what order would you prioritize these P`s

rank them in order if the priority is to make cows

Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pasturability on fescue and hot/humid
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
People
Performance {epds, data}
Program
Profile {DNA}

rank them in order if the priority is to make meat

Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pasturability on fescue and hot/humid
Performance {epds, data}
People
Program
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
Profile {DNA}
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:20 pm

thanks for leading off Eddie...I think this going to be fun...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:05 pm

Be careful, all of the lemmings think the guy in front knows what he's doing as they run behind him toward the cliff's edge!
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:58 pm

To make cows:

Program
People
Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
PRICE
Performance {epds, data}
Profile {DNA}

To make meat:

Program
People
PRICE
Phenotype {conformation/type}
Performance {epds, data}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Profile {DNA}
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Double B

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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:18 pm



pedigree and phenotype

program and people

performance and purity

profile

Most of the these P's are all part of an animal when I look at them and it's kind of hard for me to look at them as individual traits, except profile that really doesn't cross my small mind.


Hell Mike I just bought the bull from you cause I liked the cow he was out of and you bought my dinner. Good thing I'm not a women or I'd be pregnant all the time. His calves are looking fine and he is been back at it for a couple weeks. Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:01 pm

to make cows I was able to copy and paste Grassfarmer...though program and people trump all the rest greatly...
To make cows:

Program
People


Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
PRICE
Performance {epds, data}
Profile {DNA}

To make meat:

Program
Performance {epds, data}
PRICE

Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Profile {DNA}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
People

I can use a composite and hold my nose on the people if the other 6 are right; especially the first three Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:15 pm

MKeeney wrote:
when buying a bull or semen, in what order would you prioritize these P`s
People
Program
Performance {epds, data}
Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
Profile {DNA}
rank them in order if the priority is to make cows
rank them in order if the priority is to make meat

To make cows.
People
Program
Phenotype
Pedigree
Purity
performance
profile

To make meat,
People
Program
Performance
Phenotype
Pedigree
purity
profile.


If the people aint right, the rest of it has no value to me.
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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:19 pm

amen
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:10 am

[quote="MKeeney"]when buying a bull or semen, in what order would you prioritize these P`s
People
Program
Performance {epds, data}
Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
Profile {DNA}
rank them in order if the priority is to make cows
rank them in order if the priority is to make meat
[
/quote]

To make Cow's
Phenotype
program
pedigree
purity
people
performance
profile
to make meat
performance
program
phenotype
people
profile
purity
pedigree
Well here goe's the Lemming's
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:54 am

MKeeney wrote:
when buying a bull or semen, in what order would you prioritize these P`s
People
Program
Performance {epds, data}
Phenotype {conformation/type}
Pedigree {linebreeding etc}
Purity {opposite of composite bulls}
Profile {DNA}
rank them in order if the priority is to make cows
rank them in order if the priority is to make meat

No live animals are brought onto the farm.

performance profile pedigree purity - If you can not visit the herd that supplies the genetics it will give you a starting point to compare animals.

people, program (get to meet very few ai semen suppliers in my neck of the woods)

phenotype (can't tell much from a picture) visit very few herds as the closest genetic supplier is 500 miles one way.

I elected to AI breed to a bull of Robert Groom's due to his dam and maternal relatives phenotype, the people and program with out regard to profile, performance and pedigree. All 7 P's need to be taken in considerations when selecting future genetics for your herd and the ranking changes with the situation.

Genetic defect status needs to be added to this list. I will not knowingly use a carrier of a known genetic defect.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:01 am

I thought I best expand my knowledge of lemmings...
Misconceptions about lemmings go back many centuries. In the 1530s, the geographer Zeigler of Strasbourg proposed the theory that the creatures fell out of the sky during stormy weather (also featured in the folklore of the Inupiat/Yupik at Norton Sound), and then died suddenly when the grass grew in spring.[5] This description was refuted by the natural historian Ole Worm, who accepted that the lemmings could fall out of the sky but claimed that they had been brought over by the wind rather than created by spontaneous generation. It was Worm who first published dissections of a lemming, which showed that they are anatomically similar to most other rodents, and the work of Carl Linnaeus proved that the animals had a natural origin.[6][7]


When large numbers of lemmings get on the move, some of them will inevitably drown while crossing rivers and lakes, like this one in Norway.Lemmings became the subject of a popular misconception that they commit mass suicide when they migrate. Actually, it is not a mass suicide but the result of their migratory behavior. Driven by strong biological urges, some species of lemmings may migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat. In such cases, many may drown if the body of water is so wide as to stretch their physical capability to the limit. This fact combined with the unexplained fluctuations in the population of Norwegian lemmings gave rise to the misconception.[8]

The misconception of lemming "mass suicide" is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors. In 1955, Disney Studio illustrator Carl Barks drew an Uncle Scrooge adventure comic with the title "The Lemming with the Locket". This comic, which was inspired by a 1954 American Mercury article, showed massive numbers of lemmings jumping over Norwegian cliffs.[9][10] Even more influential was the 1958 Disney film White Wilderness, which won an Academy Award for Documentary Feature, in which staged footage was shown with lemmings jumping into certain death after faked scenes of mass migration.[11] A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found that the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but were in fact launched off the cliff using a turntable.[12]

This same act was also used in the Apple Computer 1985 Super Bowl commercial "Lemmings" and the popular 1991 video game Lemmings, in which the player must stop the lemmings from mindlessly marching over cliffs or into traps. In a 2010 board game by GMT games, "Leaping Lemmings," players must maneuver lemmings across a board while avoiding hazards and successfully launch them off a cliff.

Because of their association with this odd behavior, lemming suicide is a frequently used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences. This metaphor is seen many times in popular culture, such as in the video game Lemmings, and in episodes of Red Dwarf and Adult Swim's show Robot Chicken. The Blink 182 song "Lemmings" also uses this metaphor as does the 1973 stage show National Lampoon's Lemmings starring John Belushi and mocking post-Woodstock group-think.[13]

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:18 am

To start a little discussion , maternally speaking, if the PROGRAM is right {which means the people must be as well}, does anything else matter...
pedigree? a closed herd would eliminate a yes for me, otherwise...maybe...
performance? no, unless avoiding the outliers on both ends
phenotype? same as above
price? all bulls should be worth the same if the PROGRAM is right
profile? dna ? not yet...defects? yes, I doubt the merits of any cattle to be so good, as to have to use known defects...plenty of unknowns to deal with in all cattle
purity? a part of pedigree I guess

terminal...
I remembeer going to Larry`s on my second trip...and the inbred RED Line terminal bull he was using was the smallest of all the bulls; he would have destroyed "phenotype" and "performance" on an actual weight individual basis...when I saw him two years later, he was one big, stout son of a gun...I used to laugh at the Reds being the smallest calves always...not much milk from momma, and shorter grass...fat, fleshing ease cows though Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:40 am

The program/people tells me a lot about what I can expect when it comes to performance and often the other things listed. Phenotype matters mainly because I have to look at them. Pedigree because there are cattle I want to avoid like the plague but not usually a problem with the right program because they have the same issues I do.

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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:37 am

Program/people...both have to be right and long term
Pedigree/purity...closed herd with one brand...again, long term
Phenotype...shouldn't be to hard if the rest is right
Performance...should be there if the rest is right
Profile...established by longevity of program
Defects...eliminated by longevity of program

As a conception to consumer producer, priority would be on maternal
Making meat...enough will have to be good enough

When I started my foundation, I bought a flush with the sire being a very well muscled "outlier"...in retrospect, may have set me back on maternals, but I don't have a carcass problem.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:36 am

Quote :
I thought I best expand my knowledge of lemmings...

Wow, this truth stuff really messes up my stories. Let me rephrase my little ditty: If one possum is seen by the other possums climbing a persimmon tree, does it really mean that there are any persimmons to be eaten? Next thing I know Mike will be "throwing me under the bus"! (another phrase yet grandma did not really have a Goodyear pattern on her back side in actuality!)

Let me go back and see what I wrote as the head possum and try to make a plea.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:56 am

rank them in order if the priority is to make cows
Phenotype {conformation/type} If he is not genetically and environmentally able to function, with longevity, calving ease look, feet, etc I do not care if his owners are naughty or nice.

Pasturability on fescue and hot/humid Got to or else no cigar.

Pedigree {linebreeding etc} I could swap with "people" if the folks were to lie about ancestry or were sloppy record keepers.

Purity {opposite of composite bulls} Don’t want a lot of side shoots or surprises.

People Always an issue. But sometimes bad/irritating/strange people own decent animals. Take me, for example! Laughing

Performance {epds, data} More for elimination of what I do not want.

Program How do you separate “program” from all of the above: people, pedigree, type?

Profile {DNA} Not sure the data nor I am ready.

rank them in order if the priority is to make meat

Performance {epds, data} More interested in the end product so worth a look at carcass so moved up a place or two.

Everything else is about the same for me on the rest of the stuff.


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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:19 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Program/people...both have to be right and long term
Pedigree/purity...closed herd with one brand...again, long term
Phenotype...shouldn't be to hard if the rest is right
Performance...should be there if the rest is right
Profile...established by longevity of program
Defects...eliminated by longevity of program

As a conception to consumer producer, priority would be on maternal
Making meat...enough will have to be good enough

When I started my foundation, I bought a flush with the sire being a very well muscled "outlier"...in retrospect, may have set me back on maternals, but I don't have a carcass problem.

well, one thing for pretty sure, if maternal is right, the meat will be pretty darn good...especially the marbling side of the carcass
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:21 pm

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Program/people...both have to be right and long term
Pedigree/purity...closed herd with one brand...again, long term
Phenotype...shouldn't be to hard if the rest is right
Performance...should be there if the rest is right
Profile...established by longevity of program
Defects...eliminated by longevity of program

As a conception to consumer producer, priority would be on maternal
Making meat...enough will have to be good enough

When I started my foundation, I bought a flush with the sire being a very well muscled "outlier"...in retrospect, may have set me back on maternals, but I don't have a carcass problem.

well, one thing for pretty sure, if maternal is right, the meat will be pretty darn good...especially the marbling side of the carcass


15 yrs ago a very well respected western cattle men and AI rep, Wrote a article in a local ranchers magazine and he stated that. when you were choosing bulls you had to figure that if your cows were only able to produce a steer that would only make select, you needed a bull that would be able to produce prime in order to produce a marketable product. I thought about that for a while and asked, was not a good Angus cow quite capable of producing a choice avg carcass. He had no answer then and still has no answer. Yes is my answer a good maternal Angus cow red or black is quite capable of producing a choice Avg Grade. And the rest is just BS.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:31 pm

What is a "good" Angus cow and why would good ensure an ave Choice product?

Variation in marbling EPDs and the CAB acceptance in black hided cattle might lead some to think not all Angus will hit ave Choice. I realize some of the black hide comes from Continentals, but still leaves one to ponder a little.

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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:39 pm

Some interesting theories and responces. It was too much like a questionaire for the ASSosciation for me though, started fidgetin' and twitchin', sent me in a jerkin' spell, thinking the data might be used against me. I'm all right now though.

People ......numero uno for me. I prefer to buy from and sell to bad assed individuals, if it turns out bad, bring it back, whack me over the head with it, let me know what we can do to fix it, or if it can be fixed.



Program.....to me about all the other P's fall under this to an extent. The program defines performance, purity, phenotype, and that other P means piddly poop to me.

Which reminds me of my favorite coffee table book "Everybody Poops". Everytime I start feeling beat down, lowdown, unworthy, etc. I just remember the few minutes of my life I spent reading "Everybody Poops", and I feel relieved.


Ya'll have nice day

Bootheel
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:53 pm

the trap door string has not been jerked just yet...i`m sure glad pedigree is not rating highly, since I have none for the public to trace back to Old Jock Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:00 am

df wrote:
What is a "good" Angus cow and why would good ensure an ave Choice product?

Variation in marbling EPDs and the CAB acceptance in black hided cattle might lead some to think not all Angus will hit ave Choice. I realize some of the black hide comes from Continentals, but still leaves one to ponder a little.


First off the good Angus would have to be "Angus" that takes away most of the " leaving one to ponder". Not the best of everything black hided, most popular, highest selling, most promoted scam that is known as Angus. I Guess that explains my take on a Good Angus cow.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:55 am

df wrote:
What is a "good" Angus cow and why would good ensure an ave Choice product?

Variation in marbling EPDs and the CAB acceptance in black hided cattle might lead some to think not all Angus will hit ave Choice. I realize some of the black hide comes from Continentals, but still leaves one to ponder a little.

When the salebarn pays more for black hides, they get more black hides. Because of this, black Angus is the dominant breed of the US cattle...so why hasn't % high choice and prime increased dramatically? With epds, it should be no problem, right?

To get a little more off subject...with our check-off dollars promoting "LEAN BEEF", what is the target?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Rank the seven P`s in selection importance   Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:27 am

RobertMac wrote:
df wrote:
What is a "good" Angus cow and why would good ensure an ave Choice product?

Variation in marbling EPDs and the CAB acceptance in black hided cattle might lead some to think not all Angus will hit ave Choice. I realize some of the black hide comes from Continentals, but still leaves one to ponder a little.

When the salebarn pays more for black hides, they get more black hides. Because of this, black Angus is the dominant breed of the US cattle...so why hasn't % high choice and prime increased dramatically? With epds, it should be no problem, right?

To get a little more off subject...with our check-off dollars promoting "LEAN BEEF", what is the target?

My example is I think there is a fair amount of variation in the Angus breed so some lines have trouble hitting average Choice.

I think your comment deals with selection of high marbling Angus, which is the genetic trend of Angus. They may not hit average Choice due to how they are fed, although they may genetically be superior.
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