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 Another thing I don't understand.

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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Another thing I don't understand.   Thu May 26, 2011 11:19 pm

Not sure if any of the EPD experts can shed some light on this one for me. EPDs are not something we have in our breed so I don't really understand how they work. I used two bulls last year that were ET full sibs on a cross section of cows and heifers. At calving time we had quite a bit of trouble with the heifers - something that is normally not even a consideration in our breed. On closer examination of the records I kept detailing unassisted births, easy pulls and hard pulls I notice the two bulls are almost polar opposites. On 10 calves each one had 8 unassisted, one easy, one hard pull. The other had 7 hard pulls, 3 easy and no unassisted. The average birthweights off the two bulls offspring indicate a 10-15lb difference.
I assume their EPDs as untried bulls would be identical - same genes, irrelevent personal birthweights as they were ET calves. Does this not indicate a gaping hole in the EPD system until you have offspring to actually assess?
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Thu May 26, 2011 11:26 pm

yes, but the local academia would now want to know, Are the types different?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Thu May 26, 2011 11:37 pm

What type? the type of the two bulls or their calves? do the bulls look different phenotypically you mean?
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Thu May 26, 2011 11:45 pm

See what happens when we do not explain our thoughts. Yes, I was asking if the type of the bulls was similar, or where they at different ends of the spectrum for growth, bone, muscle, fat, etc. I would not assume that was the case with your cattle Grassy, but most flushes, or many at least, are all over the place.

Some well known full brothers out there, are vastly different for birth, and/or growth traits.....flush brothers are still just brothers after all, and individual bw are not used in predicting EPD's for them, unless from registered receipts. Since they were raised by surrogates, then the birtweights would essentially be worthless.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Fri May 27, 2011 7:34 am

the classic aaa example of coin flipping breeding...
stockman 11300211
rancher 11373742
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Fri May 27, 2011 7:58 am

MKeeney wrote:
the classic aaa example of coin flipping breeding...
stockman 11300211
rancher 11373742

Wow, great example. Pull both of those up in seperate windows and flip back and forth. Full brothers, born naturally, a year apart. A difference of 8.9 in BW epd and 102 in MW epd. But they both made pathfinder. Rolling Eyes
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Fri May 27, 2011 9:17 am

And I would ask if the full brothers had much linebreeding behind them or were they an outcross for your herd?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Fri May 27, 2011 3:20 pm

Tom D wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
the classic aaa example of coin flipping breeding...
stockman 11300211
rancher 11373742

Wow, great example. Pull both of those up in seperate windows and flip back and forth. Full brothers, born naturally, a year apart. A difference of 8.9 in BW epd and 102 in MW epd. But they both made pathfinder. Rolling Eyes

we can change cattle { easily}; we can improve the characteristics of cattle {that`s more difficult} ; and we can improve the predictability of those characteristics of cattle {that`s very difficult}...most can`t understand the need for the last; it`s what Keeney`s Corner is mostly about; and it`s why KC will remain quite small...everyone wants to sell; few want to breed first...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Sat May 28, 2011 8:49 am

EddieM wrote:
And I would ask if the full brothers had much linebreeding behind them or were they an outcross for your herd?

They aren't the product of a long, planned linebreeding program rather they are the foundational cross of my linebreeding program. However they are closely bred - of the 16 ancestors in the 5th generation behind each parent there are 12 that are identical on both sides and the other 4 are closely related being from the same herd and same pool of genetics. Don't know if that qualifies them anywhere close to having "much linebreeding behind them."
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Sat May 28, 2011 9:06 am

MKeeney wrote:
Tom D wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
the classic aaa example of coin flipping breeding...
stockman 11300211
rancher 11373742

Wow, great example. Pull both of those up in seperate windows and flip back and forth. Full brothers, born naturally, a year apart. A difference of 8.9 in BW epd and 102 in MW epd. But they both made pathfinder. Rolling Eyes

we can change cattle { easily}; we can improve the characteristics of cattle {that`s more difficult} ; and we can improve the predictability of those characteristics of cattle {that`s very difficult}...most can`t understand the need for the last; it`s what Keeney`s Corner is mostly about; and it`s why KC will remain quite small...everyone wants to sell; few want to [b]breed first[/b]...



"Breed First" So much has never been said with so little!
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Mon May 30, 2011 7:40 am

I presume all the calfs that had to be assisted will be removed from the breeding population. We have cow families that always produce large calfs and so are not canidates for producing bulls. I keep large birth weight heifers as replacements as long as there is no problem with calving. I try keep bulls out of cow families that have moderate bw calfs and no calving issues with above average growth.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Tue May 31, 2011 10:26 pm

Isn't that getting into mainstream purebred BS Pat? The purebred guys have all been claiming they cull as you suggested for 50 years so why haven't calving difficulties been eliminated from the entire cattle population by now? If this bull is an outlier for (negative) calving ease why assume he will be prepotent for it? If we accept outliers for growth won't necessarily transmit that trait to their offspring with any degree of certainty why should calving ease be any different? What are the bets on the offspring of the two bulls, if retained, perpetuating these calving patterns into the next generation? I should say these results were obviously on a very small numerical test and there may be environmental factors.
If you feel safe keeping large birth weight heifers as long as there is no problem with calving wouldn't that also apply to their brothers who you say are not candidates for keeping. Is the difference purely a marketing one?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:00 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Isn't that getting into mainstream purebred BS Pat? The purebred guys have all been claiming they cull as you suggested for 50 years so why haven't calving difficulties been eliminated from the entire cattle population by now? If this bull is an outlier for (negative) calving ease why assume he will be prepotent for it? If we accept outliers for growth won't necessarily transmit that trait to their offspring with any degree of certainty why should calving ease be any different? What are the bets on the offspring of the two bulls, if retained, perpetuating these calving patterns into the next generation? I should say these results were obviously on a very small numerical test and there may be environmental factors.
If you feel safe keeping large birth weight heifers as long as there is no problem with calving wouldn't that also apply to their brothers who you say are not candidates for keeping. Is the difference purely a marketing one?

good points Grassy; I sure hope all you Canadian guys can get to Red Lodge; do I need to send a car after you? Smile Larry commented to me about the common sense you guys possess; RESULT OF genetics, environment, education, or just the RANDOM few birds that have flown into KC? Smile
Speaking of LL, I am still working on the last post...and planting corn...setting tobacco...cutting hay....spraying corn...turning out a son of Hilly`s cow, thanks to Leroy...and going cough, cough...but as DV, would say, coughing inspired Smile
it will be a bit yet... mk, in the vicinity of getting EVERYTHING DONE Smile
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:32 am

Geez Bill, I figured that once you gave up the broadcast booth, you'd be a better manager. Promising more than you can deliver, sounds like the old DV. I guess I shouldn't expect much from you, after all 1239 and 1321 (.484) is a pretty AVERAGE record.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:15 pm

Tom D wrote:
Geez Bill, I figured that once you gave up the broadcast booth, you'd be a better manager. Promising more than you can deliver, sounds like the old DV. I guess I shouldn't expect much from you, after all 1239 and 1321 (.484) is a pretty AVERAGE record.
Awwww.... just playing on the sympathies of this fine group of people Tom D....Ben Loyning checked in; volunteering to haul folk about; and also with any set-up work we need done...and you can bet, I will be calling on him; we`ll see Ben`s cows/bulls on Friday just up and over the hill{or whatever cowboys call`em Very Happy } from Red Lodge
and added a friend of Redbulls to the attendance list...thx, Ralph for informing him...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:01 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Isn't that getting into mainstream purebred BS Pat? The purebred guys have all been claiming they cull as you suggested for 50 years so why haven't calving difficulties been eliminated from the entire cattle population by now? If this bull is an outlier for (negative) calving ease why assume he will be prepotent for it? If we accept outliers for growth won't necessarily transmit that trait to their offspring with any degree of certainty why should calving ease be any different? What are the bets on the offspring of the two bulls, if retained, perpetuating these calving patterns into the next generation? I should say these results were obviously on a very small numerical test and there may be environmental factors.
If you feel safe keeping large birth weight heifers as long as there is no problem with calving wouldn't that also apply to their brothers who you say are not candidates for keeping. Is the difference purely a marketing one?

It has been my experience the bulls kept from heavy bw line cows have above average bw and more likely to cause challenges with heifers. Large BW heifers have to ability to handle larger calfs as a general rule in my herd and bred to a moderate bw bull rarely have challenges. I am my own best bull customer, only keeping bulls that I would use in my herd. I try to keep back 3 or 4 bulls a year to select the next years herd sire(s) out of.

I am inclined to believe that the two bulls will pass on their calving patterns to their offspring from limited experience in my herd. An outlier has greater potential to change things due to the concetration of genes for that trait.
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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:21 am

I'm not going to argue about calving ease, but I have kept track of every heifer and cow I ever had that needed assisted since 1970. I never ever found any collation on a calve needing pulled to that heifer in turn needing assistance. In most cases I'd say my results were just the opposite. I'm not saying I'm a expert or anything, I've assisted very few births, with one exception when I got cocky and said his bull out of Mr. AngusXCornHuster will work fine on heifers, pulled 16 out of 27 heifers and one cows. But in all of my record keeping the only thing I ever came to the conclusion was backwards calves seem to come more often from one cow family, so we took steps to reduce the heifers kept from the #20 family. Just for the record 5 years ago was the last time I had to help a heifer calve. But I do try to use common sense and my own judgement on what makes a heifer bull and depend very little on what EPD's say. I should also add I haven't purchased a bull since 1991 which was the above cow killer, and I have none of his blood in my herd. Therefore; yes I know the history behind the bull I raised and the heifers I'm keeping.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another thing I don't understand.   Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:53 am

Gus wrote:
I'm not going to argue about calving ease, but I have kept track of every heifer and cow I ever had that needed assisted since 1970. I never ever found any collation on a calve needing pulled to that heifer in turn needing assistance. In most cases I'd say my results were just the opposite. I'm not saying I'm a expert or anything, I've assisted very few births, with one exception when I got cocky and said his bull out of Mr. AngusXCornHuster will work fine on heifers, pulled 16 out of 27 heifers and one cows. But in all of my record keeping the only thing I ever came to the conclusion was backwards calves seem to come more often from one cow family, so we took steps to reduce the heifers kept from the #20 family. Just for the record 5 years ago was the last time I had to help a heifer calve. But I do try to use common sense and my own judgement on what makes a heifer bull and depend very little on what EPD's say. I should also add I haven't purchased a bull since 1991 which was the above cow killer, and I have none of his blood in my herd. Therefore; yes I know the history behind the bull I raised and the heifers I'm keeping.

Southeast Idaho to Red Lodge...short distance
Breeder with practical experience...valuable
Breeder who shares experiences honestly...priceless

Gus, we have another poster here who last year about this time said he had isolationist tendencies; now he is sharing his experiences and observations freely at KC, not in the interest of himself, other than in the joy of helping others; and we all are better breeders and thinkers because of it...thank you Gus for sharing, and thank you mr. non-isolationist Smile Smile Smile
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