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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:17 am

df wrote:
Being the minority of a side discussing cattle breeding on Keeney's Corner (or 5barx) reminds me of Ron White's statement "I backed down from the fight because I did not know how many it would take to whip my *** but I knew how many they were going to use"!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdz_-06wGqc


Very Happy Very Happy
df, your {and wife}Friday night meal in Red Lodge Aug 5 will be my compliments if you can get there...in honor of your loyal and respectful opposition Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:21 am

MKeeney wrote:
well, I said I was setting us off on a tangent Smile excellent worthwhile discussion; good pics ...
Gavin has responded again; I must get his name/password fixed to get him in here posting...his last sentence made me laugh out loud; one of the reasons I admire him so much is his humor; the importance of which DV has just written a meaningful essay over at the 4.9...
from Gavin

Mike

As I say I cannot get into your kcorner as usual. Some replys if you wish to post them.

First question The best bull among his contemporise, how did he get there ? he happened to pick up the best genes for what you are selecting for in that year.

Larry’s question and those on cow efficiency. What I forgot to add in my article was that the cow that produced the fastest growing calf to weaning was the most efficienct in that year.. Remembering that weaning weight is 80% of the calfs ability to grow during this period and only 20% is the cows milk.



There was an expewriment done , and it has been repeated with the same results where they had this population of cows whose performance was known and had them divided into high weaning weight .. Low weaning weight and control. They took the calves off high weaning weight cows and put them on the low cows. They took the low weaning weight cow’s calves and put them on the high weaning weight cows.

The high weaning weight calves remained at the top even off the low cows. The low calves did no better on the high cows even though you would presume that they had more milk..

Goodness that sounds confusing and hope that you can understand! Remember before Larry comes back at me with one of his searching questions that the top cows vairy in the top half of the population and so average the same. I am getting confused myself.

Gavin


now for a question for df...and for myself as well...Why would I want to use a moderate yellow breed, a moderate white breed, or any moderate colored breed, when I have available at a reasonable price, and am becoming more familiar with, and respect the breeder greatly, the moderate Pinebank Angus cattle? Can the other breeds give me something, free of problems, that Pinebank can`t?

This question, again Sad , goes right back to the issue of the importance of a crossbred commercial cow. If you believe in the crossbred commercial cow, a two-breed rotation is probably more successful using two similar sized breeds. If a large frame CH and a small framed AN were used, there would be less uniformity in type (would you agree?). Again, I am assuming you are saving your own replacements. I think the second breed still has to make cows that stay in the herd.

As you, MKeeney, have made it pretty clear that you don't believe we need crossbred commercial cows and there is hybrid vigor within Angus, you will not be able to agree on the direction of SM in this country. I would suggest the crossbred commercial cow, if developed properly, should be the more profitable option. If the wrong inputs are used, the crossbred cow could be less profitable. It has a lot to do with fitness in the environment and probably very little in terms of growth.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:27 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Being the minority of a side discussing cattle breeding on Keeney's Corner (or 5barx) reminds me of Ron White's statement "I backed down from the fight because I did not know how many it would take to whip my *** but I knew how many they were going to use"!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdz_-06wGqc


Very Happy Very Happy
df, your {and wife}Friday night meal in Red Lodge Aug 5 will be my compliments if you can get there...in honor of your loyal and respectful opposition Smile

And Bootheel will buy your drinks. And when it gets to the point in the evening that you have the right to remain silent, but no longer have the ability, (kind of like right now on this thread) I'll help you fight off them Montana bouncers. How's that for an offer?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:34 am

we`re in agreement on the crossed cow benefit...how much cross needed depends on the quality/fertility of the crossees I think ....the Simmy bull running in my lot is too big to make good cows for sure...my red Simmy has some potential; running with Red Angus cows at the moment...
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:36 am

df wrote:
As you, MKeeney, have made it pretty clear that you don't believe we need crossbred commercial cows

You already tried that before d___ f___. That shit might work elsewhere, but we're a bunch of bad-assed individuals over here, and it's pretty hard to fool us twice. tongue
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:42 am

Quote :
Let's just take that position; the big, yellow cows with no marbling would still be a breed.

We used an outlier of the yellow Sims back when through AI that was a CE bull with moderate to less than moderate growth. The daughters were some of the best, long-lived commercial cows we had. But even at 1/32 and 1/64 their decendents still throw off colors that require a different marketing approach. I always heard that they got gone due to health issues in the feedlots. But it really doesn't matter since they are all gone and we have improved cows in America so much now.

Mike, you mentioned the Pinebank cattle as an outcross. Have they been used enough here in the USA to let us know how they fit in and how they will last or is it a direct transfer from how they do in NZ? Can I pick any and all of them as useful or do I need to sort? Would they be Model A's or Model B's for the average Angus-based guy?

I still wonder what prior legwork Mr. Clark and Mr. Lingle did to go to Ireland and such to buy the bulls. I'm not saying that they were 100% on their picks, but I wonder about their means to sort once they got there.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:47 am

Tom D wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Being the minority of a side discussing cattle breeding on Keeney's Corner (or 5barx) reminds me of Ron White's statement "I backed down from the fight because I did not know how many it would take to whip my *** but I knew how many they were going to use"!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdz_-06wGqc


Very Happy Very Happy
df, your {and wife}Friday night meal in Red Lodge Aug 5 will be my compliments if you can get there...in honor of your loyal and respectful opposition Smile

And Bootheel will buy your drinks. And when it gets to the point in the evening that you have the right to remain silent, but no longer have the ability, (kind of like right now on this thread) I'll help you fight off them Montana bouncers. How's that for an offer?

Sorry, I don't drink enough to get to that point!!
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:59 am

Tom D wrote:
df wrote:
As you, MKeeney, have made it pretty clear that you don't believe we need crossbred commercial cows

You already tried that before d___ f___. That shit might work elsewhere, but we're a bunch of bad-assed individuals over here, and it's pretty hard to fool us twice. tongue

Tom D,

Why would we discuss the value of Pinebank Angus as opposed to SM or another breed to make commercial crossbred cows? It seems clear to me if you believe in the crossbred cow, you would crossbreed. However, if you don't believe in crossbreeding, or believe in within breed hybrid vigor, then you will discuss unrelated Angus.

What would you recommend for a crossbred commercial cow in your area?



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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 10:03 am

Tom D wrote:
You mean you type this stuff when you're sober?!?!? Oh no, now I'm afraid we may have a problem. I'm gonna have to take a few hours, go confer with the cows and sheep, and figure out how to deal with you.

There has been several pages added to this thread only because there are two perspectives. If there was only one perspective, it could be summed up in about 3 posts with pictures. Very Happy
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 10:07 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
It's true that Simmental would be gone if they stayed the way they were. But they are gone either way. The choice was either cut their heads off or breed them away. Same result. The breed is essentially gone.

I think the "type" is essentially gone. Their percentage of market share might tell a different story.

Where would CH be if Litton's Sam bull was the norm with all the dystocia problems?

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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 10:37 am

DF, if you join us, believe you me, it will take a lot of drinks, and time, blood, sweat and tears, to work through our issues. Once you get your teeth gathered up out of the sawdust, we'll hug, high five and have another round.

Crossbreeding requires breeds, would you agree?

The above question must be in your mind, dialouge, and owner's manual, and be understood fully, to continue to have a meaningful discussion. Crossbreds are not a breed, they are crossbreds. They can become a breed at some point in time, which can be expanded upon in further detail.

Part of the problem with 951, was the type and size of cows, he was bred to. This is where one must determine what their herd of cows can handle for the best outcome, and why I will not use, draft stock, barn reared, bulls, here at this time. If I find a suitable source of such derivatives, with selection and management practices similar to my own, I would put considerable consideration into their use.

Within breed hybrid vigor, may be less disruptive, for maternal goals, by bringing less variation, of economic, or percieved economically important traits, such as color, horns, rat tails, etc. Some of which are real concerns, some market stigma.

The terminalalilty of crossbreeding, I assume, is where most of us derail, into differing mindsets. Bob H, covered this pretty well for me some time back, on your last crossbreeding thread. I would suggest Mr. DF, see I am nice, re-study your questions, and resulting answers until you get it, and then continue on to educate us on our misguided beliefs, in purebreds, and crossbreds.

Make no mistake DF. I have no ill will for you, even if I disagree or misrepresent your findings. But, I can still have a fistacuffs, with someone I even like.

Signed

Bootheel....stone cold sober, yet dillusional enough to think we can change the world




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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 10:47 am






Bootheel,

Which bull do you think will work the best in a two-breed (AN x CH) crossbred herd?

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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 10:57 am

951 will work poorly for me as he is dead. The other I know not, and will not use or recomend a bull based on picture or epd data. I must know the program, the man or woman, and the bull must be available in living form. I want to walk through the cows, smell some poop, wrestle in the mud. Picture data will reveal a type, and not much else, and I presume either would bring better yield to the Angus, the average Angus of course, but the fringe dwellers, may be a different story. Recomendations for theoretical cows.......scratch that, show us some pictures of your cows DF, your Bulls, only then can we help.

Recomendation #2, reread to one liner's thesis, expand your mind and thoughts, so we, I can understand, your stick in the mud mind.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 11:38 am

I believe that management is more important than genetics to profitability and the combination of both can have very good results. I have studied forage management and discussed the pros and cons of different calving seasons and breeds with a variety of people. While genetics is my first love, I have seen great value in forage management and the use of stockers to improve cash flow, and sometimes, profit. BTW, I am probably one of the biggest fan of raising sheep as often the economic situation often favors sheep over cows.

In some cases, a straightbred commercial cowherd is the most profitable although there is little to no research data to back up that statement. However, I have seen enough cattlemen using bulls that are too big, too high in milk and thus too high in problems to make the crossbreeding system be profitable. Using more appropriate bulls could have significantly changed their bottom line.

Many cattlemen are over 60 and/or have limited time to spend with their cattle due to the large number of cows or an off-farm job. Twenty years ago I was told real cowboys don't like to pull calves, milk cows or treat pinkeye. In essence, they want to ride a horse, occasionally build fence or make hay. Bottom line, make cattle that are problem free and that last long enough to make some profit. That does not mean make cows that live until they are 15-yrs-old. Maximum profit may come to herds that have 12-yr-old cows or even younger IF they are able to increase income either through added value of selling replacement heifers to others or retaining ownership and capturing grid premiums. And the calves sold need to have some value to the next person in the chain.

CAB changed everything. Some of those changes were good, such as a focus on the ultimate customer. This is the only place real dollars enter the beef industry. We either make a product they want or they will go elsewhere. There is no law that says they have to eat beef and a bad product can drive them away.

Seedstock producers have placed less emphasis on the showring and more emphasis on data, of which has resulted in other problems that have been discussed here and on other sites. IT is NOT a round and round we go chasing our tail. It is a misinterpretation of data. At this time, most of the EPDs deal with output and not input, gross production and not net income. That can be rectified with the help of seedstock breeders. It will not appear by magic, no matter how much you ask for it. Longevity can be quantified and it does not have to be hard.



This cow may be the ideal cow (or maybe not). Some cattlemen prefer her type and others will say she is too big, too muscular with too high of a tail set. If this cow raised a good calf every year and stayed in the herd, then she may be the most profitable cow on earth. But we will never know without knowing the inputs as well as the outputs.

I don't think you can ask the terminal bull, at this time, to bring all of the muscle, growth and marbling to the feeder calf. The cow has to make some contribution. It may not be big but it should not be ignored.

Selecting for "maternal" has mostly been about avoiding the traits known to be counter productive to fertility. It has been a combination of avoiding certain types and keeping growth, frame and milk low. But how much is it selecting for and how much is avoidance?

I have seen several pictures of old cows but not much evidence of what I should look for in replacement heifers. That is where this thread could be real valuable; how can I make more accurate selection of replacement heifers where a larger percentage will stay in the herd and make money>




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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am

Bootheel wrote:
951 will work poorly for me as he is dead. The other I know not, and will not use or recomend a bull based on picture or epd data. I must know the program, the man or woman, and the bull must be available in living form. I want to walk through the cows, smell some poop, wrestle in the mud. Picture data will reveal a type, and not much else, and I presume either would bring better yield to the Angus, the average Angus of course, but the fringe dwellers, may be a different story. Recomendations for theoretical cows.......scratch that, show us some pictures of your cows DF, your Bulls, only then can we help.

Recomendation #2, reread to one liner's thesis, expand your mind and thoughts, so we, I can understand, your stick in the mud mind.


So you don't trust any seedstock producer to know your program and recommend a bull?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 2:00 pm

Quote :
Which bull do you think will work the best in a two-breed (AN x CH) crossbred herd?

The white one! Laughing
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 2:01 pm

lots of good points being made...and shoot, I must be in a good Sunday mood, I agree with everybody more than any disagreement...especially df`s, the forage/cattle management/money management versus genetics as greater factors of profitability...we argue about genetics/animals because they are our first love in the farm and ranch livlihood...
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 2:36 pm

df wrote:





Bootheel,

Which bull do you think will work the best in a two-breed (AN x CH) crossbred herd?


I think that's some French bull and maybe hcr flash-- I'd say either could work pretty well with black cows, the French bull might result in more calving troubles, but probably more pounds and muscle. Flash would be different-- lots easier calving, less grunt, lots more marbling. I wouldn't use either one of them but I did have a pretty good flash granddaughter once--- she was a big girl. I wouldn't think either of these guys would be anywhere near the modern definition of moderate, so I wouldn't think daughters of either one in a commercial herd would be a great idea.

Re: loss of Simmental type, but bigger share of market-- I guess that's good if you want to say you have Simmental cattle even if you don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 3:02 pm

DF, let me first say, your paragraphed, instead of one liner responce, was in my diluted opinion, your best work. You expanded your thoughts to a decipherable state, and I applaud your efforts, and even included a cow I presume purchased and owned by you. I may even have Tom fly me down some Moosedrool, to help me digest and regurgitate through the rumen contents of profitability. We'll see how this goes for now, but right now I am feeling better about you, but may yet have to fire up the slinger.

DF asked.....So you don't trust any seedstock producer to know your program and recommend a bull?

No, absolutely not. Could they make some educated, assumptions, yes, but you know what happens when you assume. But I may misunderstand your question, if you are asking if someone else could make recommendations from my program, as good as my own, then no. Would I buy from someone, sight unseen, without going through the cows, and knowing the program......not anymore, so no to both I presume. Would I buy from a known supplier, based upon their recommendations.....yes.

Management, you covered it Chief.


Now to psychadelic world of premiums, discounts, averages, hidden costs, variable costs, and the unforseen challenges by trying to garner or avoid the afforementioned classes of monetary returns.

The last load of fats I sold, had $2 cwt, CAB premium, which amounted to roughly $14 a head. That is all well and good. My experience in feeding my own and customer cattle, has given me my own view on what really ''returns''. The first steers to go out would be my high growth animals, hitting target weights first, along with acceptable cover. Though usually they would be somewhat leaner, maybe .05'' less backfat, they would rarely hit any quality grade premiums. While eating 30 pounds of finishing ration a day, the less days on feed usually nullified the lack of premium for quality grade.

The middle usually hit yield and quality grade premiums, without discount...total net dollars, about the same.


The bottom, pud end, young end, misfits, warts, and knots, is where my highest percentage of primes, and some dockage for 4's would occur. It took all the extra premiums, to pay added feed cost, but those are some tasty buggers.

I have not fed any for the past year, and cannot tell you how $7 corn plays out. I seriously doubt any cab or choice premiums, as small as they are now, will pay for much extra time on feed. Age and source paid more consistent real world premiums then. Now, limiting myself to maximum gains to kill by 21 months, shortening time that can be spent on grass, may nullify the premium benefit.

Df wrote.....Seedstock producers have placed less emphasis on the showring and more emphasis on data, of which has resulted in other problems that have been discussed here and on other sites. IT is NOT a round and round we go chasing our tail. It is a misinterpretation of data

I would like for you to expand on this thought, for further clarification, before I comment further or form an opinion.

Df wrote......I don't think you can ask the terminal bull, at this time, to bring all of the muscle, growth and marbling to the feeder calf. The cow has to make some contribution. It may not be big but it should not be ignored.

I could not agree more. But we will differ here. I want my cow to bring some marbling, some fat on her back, some guts. So why would I even consider a true continental, to make a cow out of here. Give me muscle, some marbling(which my sources say CharXAngus wins over angusXSimmental) assuming of course it is a Simmie, and not a just registered as so. I can see the benefit in the simangus, back on angus, or baldy cows(which I prefer), but some loss of the free lunch, would most certainly occur.

I will not discuss the longevity issue here, and save it for the designated category. It iis difficult enough for me to stay on topic as it is.

Now wasn't that fun DF, I didn't even call you a noaccount turdeater, or wipe my feet on your back on the way out of the salloon doors.


Have a good one

Bootheel.....near another yet sunless, wet, dreary day, waiting for sunshine and bikini lines.












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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 3:32 pm

Interesting how quick everyone accepts that the Simmental breed has changed dramatically, either to an over large type or now to an Angus type. What about the Angus type though? I took a couple of pictures this morning of one of my red Angus cows that calved a couple of days ago. These are essentially purebred cattle but not registered - I have no idea of the bloodlines. It demonstrates to me a type of cattle totally unsuited to the program we run - calving on banked grass now this cow is far too lean, with far too much milk. Narrow bodied, narrow faced, frail - a cow that will almost certainly come up open before 8 years old (she is 5 now and on her second spring under my management). This is very similar to the Angus x Holstein cow that was very popular in the UK before the Limo x Holstein took over. I assume this is the result of selection for "more" - more growth, more milk, more weaning weight.


As a comparison a Luing cow under the same conditions - and she had twins and lost one this spring and still carries at least a condition score more than the Angus.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 3:40 pm

Seedstock producers have placed less emphasis on the showring and more emphasis on data, of which has resulted in other problems that have been discussed here and on other sites. IT is NOT a round and round we go chasing our tail. It is a misinterpretation of data


In the past, the NWSS winner resulted would be quickly leased to a bull stud or at least highly promoted. Lots of calves would be marketed "sired by the XXXX NWSS Grand Champion". I don't see that anywhere near the level I did 20-30 years ago. Lots of breeders found out that the winner on that day selected by one man did not result in what they expected in their own cows. And why should they..........the show cattle tend to be highly fed and fitted. Is it a contest of conformation and genetic value or just a feeding and fitting contest by some of the best feeders and fitters in the world?

Although some data is provided for the judge, it is still an issue of the selection of one bull that fits the "ideal" but possibly just the fad of the day.

CAB did not really take off for the first 15 yrs, as I recall. However the growth in the last +15 yrs has been quite remarkable. The CAB premium and even Ch-Se spread don't always fully describe the success of the program as those are pts in time, and don't reflect the long-term trend.

The success of CAB encouraged more data collection and use of growth and carcass EPDs. Has this been done at the detriment of "maternal" traits? Sure, as we know the selection for growth without the limitation on mature size will result in large cows. This is not the most desirable situation where feed or management will not support it. Big cows take more feed and lack thereof can result in open cows. I believe the correction of the showring resulted in the propagation of cows that are deep (fat) to an extreme. Excessively fat cows are not necessarily fertile cows and may even be subfertile. As MKeeney has said "it only proves the reason they are open is not due to being too thin" or something like that.

Back to my point..........breeders selected for traits that were beneficial in the feedlot and packing plant (growth, carcass weight and marbling). Now breeders are selecting for RE, possibly due to the inappropriate REA given the carcass weight. In other words, the breeders increased CW but not RE in relation to CW. This is another reason certain bloodlines find favor today.

In the last few years, $EN has gotten some interest. Some believe $EN has to do with "efficiency". I think that is a misinterpretation of this index. In general it will rank animals as to their needs. Low milk, low mature wt cows don't require as much as high milk, large cows. But without specific intake, it won't rank all animals exactly the way they truely rank. In reality it does not matter. Just like visual appraisal, get the good ones up and the bad ones down and you should never bust a class! $EN has some value but single trait selection could very well end up with small cows that raise little hairball calves.

There is a better way to select for net profit, and it is coming.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 7:15 pm

will the sky fall if we don`t follow suit?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:03 pm

MKeeney wrote:
will the sky fall if we don`t follow suit?

It's a free country. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:48 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
will the sky fall if we don`t follow suit?

It's a free country. Very Happy

do you walk to work? Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Mon May 16, 2011 8:07 am

It's 13 miles to work. Although the idea of running a half-marathon is interesting, I don't think I want to do it twice a day!
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