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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 7:30 pm

df wrote:
Did the bull that had a ADG of 3 kgs, which is 6.6 lbs, have progeny that excelled over the progeny of other sires? How much of this superiority was genetic?
I believe so during that era...
a little tangent here...look at this Simmental bull and his description...why didn`t they just say "he`s the most Angus like bull in the Simmental breed"? here`s a breeder ad about him...

ABS Global has Sure Bet headlined as “The Next Great Calving Ease Sire”. That’s a very big and bold statement, but he may live up to the headline, and more. We truly believe his daughters may prove to be his greatest asset to the Simmental breed. Sure Bet is proving to have the great birth to yearling spread and carcass value of his EPD breed leading sire, but he is doing it in a much smaller frame size with added capacity, depth of flank, and excellent softness in the lower leg. He comes from a cow family that possess perfectly shaped udders and teats, and excels in longevity as his dam, grand-dam, great-grand-dam, and great-great-grand-dam were all still in production when we purchased him as a yearling. Sure Bet sons were the high selling bulls in the Gibbs Farms Sale last fall and the Triangle J Ranch Sale recently. Sure Bet semen is available from your local ABS Global representative.



what is " excellent softness in the lower leg"?

http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmental.asp?CodTouro=29SM0390

he`s 54 inches tall mature...so when Simmental become Angus through selection, are not those "same set of genes" involved, and heterosis decreased?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 8:23 pm

Good questions MKeeney.

Where would the Simmental breed be today if they stayed on the course they plotted in the 80's?
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 8:46 pm

Why spend 30 years recreating something that already existed in abundance? Correcting problems is a good thing, but why the major transformation, and still call them a Simmy. I don't get it. Tradition maybe? I understand improving what you have, but this deal just seems wacko to me. I have a 2 year old Simmy cow getting fattened right now, Show Me select rig, big and hard and battle scarred, yellow, looks like an 80's poster child for long legs. She is not a breeding project, just a cash flow project. I pitty that fellar that bought her for breeding value, he was probably going to make some black improved simmies.......oh the fun Very Happy
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 8:53 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Why spend 30 years recreating something that already existed in abundance? Correcting problems is a good thing, but why the major transformation, and still call them a Simmy. I don't get it. Tradition maybe? I understand improving what you have, but this deal just seems wacko to me. I have a 2 year old Simmy cow getting fattened right now, Show Me select rig, big and hard and battle scarred, yellow, looks like an 80's poster child for long legs. She is not a breeding project, just a cash flow project. I pitty that fellar that bought her for breeding value, he was probably going to make some black improved simmies.......oh the fun Very Happy

That is the difference in perspective; what position do (generic) you take in the role of hybrid vigor in commercial cows.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 8:56 pm

df wrote:
Good questions MKeeney.

Where would the Simmental breed be today if they stayed on the course they plotted in the 80's?

They would still be a breed.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 9:03 pm

Tom D wrote:
df wrote:
Good questions MKeeney.

Where would the Simmental breed be today if they stayed on the course they plotted in the 80's?

They would still be a breed.

Let's just take that position; the big, yellow cows with no marbling would still be a breed. And would there even be 20 hd left in the entire country if the breeders kept with that strategy?
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 9:22 pm

Oh I would say their role would be to provide some useful complemetary terminal cross, hybrid vigour, added muscle, rather than just keeping them black or somewhat black. No doubt moderation was in order, but not a complete metamorphisis into another black angus, that may or may not be more angus than angus are, at this point. It is all just another laughable study on human nature. Of course in the referenced link, (I have not studied it), but being a Stud bull, I am sure he is outlier, breed changer, so probably not an accurrate representation of the breed, but his use or lack thereof, would indicate direction or goal of the breed or breeders.

Hybrid vigor is a wonderful thing, DF, calling Angus Cross, Simmentals, does little to improve it, rather than keeping the parts seperate, at minimum calling them balancers or whatever the appropriate term is. I fully understand breeders doing what they need to, to survive or prosper, but some of it is just too dang funny.



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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 9:39 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Oh I would say their role would be to provide some useful complemetary terminal cross, hybrid vigour, added muscle, rather than just keeping them black or somewhat black. No doubt moderation was in order, but not a complete metamorphisis into another black angus, that may or may not be more angus than angus are, at this point. It is all just another laughable study on human nature. Of course in the referenced link, (I have not studied it), but being a Stud bull, I am sure he is outlier, breed changer, so probably not an accurrate representation of the breed, but his use or lack thereof, would indicate direction or goal of the breed or breeders.

Hybrid vigor is a wonderful thing, DF, calling Angus Cross, Simmentals, does little to improve it, rather than keeping the parts seperate, at minimum calling them balancers or whatever the appropriate term is. I fully understand breeders doing what they need to, to survive or prosper, but some of it is just too dang funny.




Bootheel is this full fleckvieh what you had in mind. Click on his name it is a link to his photo.
Draco


Last edited by Dylan Biggs on Sat May 14, 2011 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 9:52 pm

I don't know Draco, Is there supposed to be a picture there Dylan?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 10:06 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Oh I would say their role would be to provide some useful complemetary terminal cross, hybrid vigour, added muscle, rather than just keeping them black or somewhat black. No doubt moderation was in order, but not a complete metamorphisis into another black angus, that may or may not be more angus than angus are, at this point. It is all just another laughable study on human nature. Of course in the referenced link, (I have not studied it), but being a Stud bull, I am sure he is outlier, breed changer, so probably not an accurrate representation of the breed, but his use or lack thereof, would indicate direction or goal of the breed or breeders.

Hybrid vigor is a wonderful thing, DF, calling Angus Cross, Simmentals, does little to improve it, rather than keeping the parts seperate, at minimum calling them balancers or whatever the appropriate term is. I fully understand breeders doing what they need to, to survive or prosper, but some of it is just too dang funny.




So why would MKeeney be using moderate, thick CH when he could surely get into some big, yellow SM for less money.........surely they would make a good terminal cross.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 11:08 pm

It's true that Simmental would be gone if they stayed the way they were. But they are gone either way. The choice was either cut their heads off or breed them away. Same result. The breed is essentially gone.
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 11:24 pm

Bootheel wrote:
I don't know Draco, Is there supposed to be a picture there Dylan?

Click on his name Bootheel it is a link to a photo of him.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sat May 14, 2011 11:57 pm

df wrote:
Tom D wrote:
df wrote:
Good questions MKeeney.

Where would the Simmental breed be today if they stayed on the course they plotted in the 80's?

They would still be a breed.

Let's just take that position; the big, yellow cows with no marbling would still be a breed. And would there even be 20 hd left in the entire country if the breeders kept with that strategy?

There are more than 40 million big, yellow cows spread around the globe. Simmental, Fleckvieh, Simmentaler, Abondance, Monbeliard, Pie Rouge, whatever you want to call the big, broadheaded pied cattle from the Alps. Globally, the red and white Simmentals sure as hell out number the crossbred black Simmentals, they probably outnumber all the black cattle put together.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 12:08 am

df wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
Oh I would say their role would be to provide some useful complemetary terminal cross, hybrid vigour, added muscle, rather than just keeping them black or somewhat black. No doubt moderation was in order, but not a complete metamorphisis into another black angus, that may or may not be more angus than angus are, at this point. It is all just another laughable study on human nature. Of course in the referenced link, (I have not studied it), but being a Stud bull, I am sure he is outlier, breed changer, so probably not an accurrate representation of the breed, but his use or lack thereof, would indicate direction or goal of the breed or breeders.

Hybrid vigor is a wonderful thing, DF, calling Angus Cross, Simmentals, does little to improve it, rather than keeping the parts seperate, at minimum calling them balancers or whatever the appropriate term is. I fully understand breeders doing what they need to, to survive or prosper, but some of it is just too dang funny.




So why would MKeeney be using moderate, thick CH when he could surely get into some big, yellow SM for less money.........surely they would make a good terminal cross.

What has anything I said, or anybody else for that matter, have to do with Mike using MODERATE whites, versus big, yellow Simmies. One liner's are fun for commedians, you may have a sense of humor, even laugh a little. I know piddly squat about Simmies, but comedy ain't your gig Teach, probably best you stick to well thought out research, backed by facts.

Tom, 40 million spotted cows out there, and Simmies cease to exist......good stuff.

Dylan, probably not my cup of tea, but if I need some plow pullers, he'd be tops on the list.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 12:16 am

Good point Tom D, don't write the breed off on account of the fashion fuelled breeding decisions made in one part of the world in the 80's with the giraffes and again today with the blacks. As a former Simmental breeder I still have an admiration for the qualities of the breed if the type is environmentally adapted. I think the north Americans picked the wrong ones from the outset. In the UK they selected more what is now being marketed as the "fleckvieh type" right back in the late 60s - funny enough bulls like Scottish Neff and Herod that have been influential in the breed worldwide were picked out in Europe by the Scottish Milk Marketing Boards beef AI stud. Imagine that - a semen company picking the "right" ones. I know some of the old boys who were on the selection committees at that time - real cattle breeders not marketers and history shows they made some good selections.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 12:28 am

How about this one Bootheel? Scottish Herod a bull from @1973 if I remember correctly. Filled the requirement of the day for a well muscled breed with adequate growth and milk production reflecting their dual purpose breed origin.

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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 4:32 am

Bootheel wrote:
df wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
Oh I would say their role would be to provide some useful complemetary terminal cross, hybrid vigour, added muscle, rather than just keeping them black or somewhat black. No doubt moderation was in order, but not a complete metamorphisis into another black angus, that may or may not be more angus than angus are, at this point. It is all just another laughable study on human nature. Of course in the referenced link, (I have not studied it), but being a Stud bull, I am sure he is outlier, breed changer, so probably not an accurrate representation of the breed, but his use or lack thereof, would indicate direction or goal of the breed or breeders.

Hybrid vigor is a wonderful thing, DF, calling Angus Cross, Simmentals, does little to improve it, rather than keeping the parts seperate, at minimum calling them balancers or whatever the appropriate term is. I fully understand breeders doing what they need to, to survive or prosper, but some of it is just too dang funny.




So why would MKeeney be using moderate, thick CH when he could surely get into some big, yellow SM for less money.........surely they would make a good terminal cross.

What has anything I said, or anybody else for that matter, have to do with Mike using MODERATE whites, versus big, yellow Simmies. One liner's are fun for commedians, you may have a sense of humor, even laugh a little. I know piddly squat about Simmies, but comedy ain't your gig Teach, probably best you stick to well thought out research, backed by facts.

Tom, 40 million spotted cows out there, and Simmies cease to exist......good stuff.

Dylan, probably not my cup of tea, but if I need some plow pullers, he'd be tops on the list.

Bootheel, exactly the traditional type and app from Austria, quite a production cross on Angus, and they have never attemptted to change what they are. let alone stoop so low as to try and emulate the modern Angus mainstream type.

Now if that type is not your cup of tea what do you make of this type http://www.fleckvieh.de/Altbullen/detail_e.asp?ID=431&Sortby=1&strSuche=&Start=, dairy fleckvieh? True dual purpose so they claim. They collect quite a pile of data.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 4:40 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Good point Tom D, don't write the breed off on account of the fashion fuelled breeding decisions made in one part of the world in the 80's with the giraffes and again today with the blacks. As a former Simmental breeder I still have an admiration for the qualities of the breed if the type is environmentally adapted. I think the north Americans picked the wrong ones from the outset. In the UK they selected more what is now being marketed as the "fleckvieh type" right back in the late 60s - funny enough bulls like Scottish Neff and Herod that have been influential in the breed worldwide were picked out in Europe by the Scottish Milk Marketing Boards beef AI stud. Imagine that - a semen company picking the "right" ones. I know some of the old boys who were on the selection committees at that time - real cattle breeders not marketers and history shows they made some good selections.

Ian good point, re Fleckvieh, from what I have seen if a guy was looking for a good production cross those Full Fleckvieh are doing quite the job, moderate frame and birth and tremendous muscle and growth, if you are prepared to push your cows that hard.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 7:22 am

well, I said I was setting us off on a tangent Smile excellent worthwhile discussion; good pics ...
Gavin has responded again; I must get his name/password fixed to get him in here posting...his last sentence made me laugh out loud; one of the reasons I admire him so much is his humor; the importance of which DV has just written a meaningful essay over at the 4.9...
from Gavin

Mike

As I say I cannot get into your kcorner as usual. Some replys if you wish to post them.

First question The best bull among his contemporise, how did he get there ? he happened to pick up the best genes for what you are selecting for in that year.

Larry’s question and those on cow efficiency. What I forgot to add in my article was that the cow that produced the fastest growing calf to weaning was the most efficienct in that year.. Remembering that weaning weight is 80% of the calfs ability to grow during this period and only 20% is the cows milk.



There was an expewriment done , and it has been repeated with the same results where they had this population of cows whose performance was known and had them divided into high weaning weight .. Low weaning weight and control. They took the calves off high weaning weight cows and put them on the low cows. They took the low weaning weight cow’s calves and put them on the high weaning weight cows.

The high weaning weight calves remained at the top even off the low cows. The low calves did no better on the high cows even though you would presume that they had more milk..

Goodness that sounds confusing and hope that you can understand! Remember before Larry comes back at me with one of his searching questions that the top cows vairy in the top half of the population and so average the same. I am getting confused myself.

Gavin


now for a question for df...and for myself as well...Why would I want to use a moderate yellow breed, a moderate white breed, or any moderate colored breed, when I have available at a reasonable price, and am becoming more familiar with, and respect the breeder greatly, the moderate Pinebank Angus cattle? Can the other breeds give me something, free of problems, that Pinebank can`t?
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PostSubject: back on longevity   Sun May 15, 2011 7:31 am

I am posting this email from a reader for your responses...mk

Hi Mike
Some random thoughts on the longevity thread. In my expierence sucsessful old cows tend to have heavy dense bones. The little black cow you showed asking for thoughts of did not appeal to me as she was light boned, she appeared to have a small heart girth measurement. Do some cows start light boned and then coarsen up as they get older. I think Voss would be a good one to ask. I understand Voss breeds Hancock quarter horses, reportedly there was a touch of percheron in Old Joe Hancock. All the Texan I have visited with liked the heavy bones of the hancocks. I feel for me that light boned cows won't last for me.

Boot heel stated he has a hard time judging a bull and his motion. I like a bull that moves like pickup horse in a rodeo versus a draft horse plodding along.

Tired and not clear in my thoughts

Take care JRN


now we might get on a tangent I`ve no experience with at all...horse breeding...but since we are going to HBR Aug 6, very appropiate topic....all I know about Dennis/Erica`s horses...they sure were pretty Smile

as to bone in cattle/cows...I never paid much attention to it; always thought I was a poor judge of it...actually, I tended to lump obvious heavy bone into the coarse, infertile look...so here we go again, lots to talk about...

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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 8:26 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
How about this one Bootheel? Scottish Herod a bull from @1973 if I remember correctly. Filled the requirement of the day for a well muscled breed with adequate growth and milk production reflecting their dual purpose breed origin.



Holy Crap, I should have just kept my peckers' away from the keyboard yesterday, as now I am being bombarded by sales pitches for Simmy pecker's and puller's. Pullers being my main concern with the Spotted Cows.

My thinking on their use, for an outfit with big ol cows, needing to be bred to bigger bulls, they are wonderful, and make the bigger cows more efficient, rather than the goof troop strategy of breeding all the big ol cows, to the piss ants, and then wonder why the smaller cows raised bigger calves.


I am quite sure all the pictured bulls would fill the role of terminal quite nicely, maybe even diluted into a composite Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 8:58 am

Being the minority of a side discussing cattle breeding on Keeney's Corner (or 5barx) reminds me of Ron White's statement "I backed down from the fight because I did not know how many it would take to whip my *** but I knew how many they were going to use"!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdz_-06wGqc


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df



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:09 am

Tom D wrote:
df wrote:
Tom D wrote:
df wrote:
Good questions MKeeney.

Where would the Simmental breed be today if they stayed on the course they plotted in the 80's?

They would still be a breed.

Let's just take that position; the big, yellow cows with no marbling would still be a breed. And would there even be 20 hd left in the entire country if the breeders kept with that strategy?

There are more than 40 million big, yellow cows spread around the globe. Simmental, Fleckvieh, Simmentaler, Abondance, Monbeliard, Pie Rouge, whatever you want to call the big, broadheaded pied cattle from the Alps. Globally, the red and white Simmentals sure as hell out number the crossbred black Simmentals, they probably outnumber all the black cattle put together.

As stated above, where would they be if they stayed the course of the 80's? Look in any semen catalog from the 80's and I think you will find some pretty SM that really didn't even work as terminal cattle. And that was somewhat typical of all breeds that were on a parallel path.

Abondance cattle are pretty moderate and don't have the size of the Simmental I am discussing (same for Montbeliards). At least that is my experience in the US. They might be bigger in France, but they are not all that big (at least the ones I have seen bred to Holsteins).

It is interesting that your "compliment" to them includes "big, broadheaded". Does this mean you like that characteristic or just a subtle slam Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:10 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
How about this one Bootheel? Scottish Herod a bull from @1973 if I remember correctly. Filled the requirement of the day for a well muscled breed with adequate growth and milk production reflecting their dual purpose breed origin.


Yes, that would have worked in the day but times change. CAB changed everything.

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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Crossbreeding 2   Sun May 15, 2011 9:14 am

MKeeney wrote:
I am posting this email from a reader for your responses...mk

Hi Mike
Some random thoughts on the longevity thread. In my expierence sucsessful old cows tend to have heavy dense bones. The little black cow you showed asking for thoughts of did not appeal to me as she was light boned, she appeared to have a small heart girth measurement. Do some cows start light boned and then coarsen up as they get older. I think Voss would be a good one to ask. I understand Voss breeds Hancock quarter horses, reportedly there was a touch of percheron in Old Joe Hancock. All the Texan I have visited with liked the heavy bones of the hancocks. I feel for me that light boned cows won't last for me.

Boot heel stated he has a hard time judging a bull and his motion. I like a bull that moves like pickup horse in a rodeo versus a draft horse plodding along.

Tired and not clear in my thoughts

Take care JRN


now we might get on a tangent I`ve no experience with at all...horse breeding...but since we are going to HBR Aug 6, very appropiate topic....all I know about Dennis/Erica`s horses...they sure were pretty Smile

as to bone in cattle/cows...I never paid much attention to it; always thought I was a poor judge of it...actually, I tended to lump obvious heavy bone into the coarse, infertile look...so here we go again, lots to talk about...



heavy bone, by which I mean big bone, ie cannon bone circumference, is good for draft animals, not the greatest for smooth traveling distance covering horses, not saying I want frail either.
The oldest producing cow we ever had here was a light boned cow, not frail, dense compact bone, had 15 calves decided to leave her open, she may have had more. From a calving ease standpoint heavy bone is asking for trouble, nothing worse then two huge front feet stuck in the birth canal that you can barely fit your hand in to put chains on, Charolais experience from the 70's and earley 80's. Longhorn cattle are not heavy boned they have extreme longevity though. Durable bone with longevity is never a bad thing. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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