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 Longevity post...rescued from the ruins

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R V



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Join date : 2010-10-04

PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:05 am

Wow - her type is extremely similar to the 15 and 17 year old Angus cows that I have. I also have a 18.5+ Charolais cow that is also similar, but she is starting to show her age now. The two Angus cows are currently open so that I can flush them, but I plan on breeding them both again for fall calves. If I get the chance later this week, I will try to take pictures and post them.

Ron
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:03 pm

as I found them, where I found them; be it shadow or sun, a week weaned from their dams... the grand daughters of the old cow via Sniff the Wind

















the exterior is encouraging enough to head in an interior direction...this is the
smallest of the half brother candidates to go inside with...



his dam is one of the ten talents I got from LL to see if I could multiple them...
3 or 4 other half sib possibilities exist...




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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:12 pm

wonder whAt part of the world this head came from, and what kind of body do you expect to be behind it?

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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:32 pm

Damn nice set of heifers. Just for the fun of it could you tell us how many bulls in the 3 generation pedigrees of those heifers did you offer to people for $2000 or less but no one saw what they could do until the proof was in the pudding?
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:06 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Damn nice set of heifers. Just for the fun of it could you tell us how many bulls in the 3 generation pedigrees of those heifers did you offer to people for $2000 or less but no one saw what they could do until the proof was in the pudding?
Mark,
These heifers are the result of very intricate and detailed planning...Sniffs sire was a sorry looking little thing, from a really good cow, so I even didn`t offer to sell him, but I bred a few to him cleanup...and just to keep his ass out of my way and hold down bull fights, I left him with his spring calving group of cows...about 30 days into the calving season in fact before getting him out...and three or four old cows including Sniff`s dam came in heat in about thirty days and got bred wayyyy early creating Sniff the Wind; Sniff`s sire jumped an already crashed in gate when I loaded him, pissed me off, so I sent him to Tn where he lived out his days, and Blythemaker is breeding his daughters this summer ...
sometimes the force is just with you Smile
and everybody thought ole Greg Walker`s story was so good {so did I Very Happy } but the truth is almost always stranger than fiction... Smile
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:30 am

Quote :
These heifers are the result of very intricate and detailed planning...Sniffs sire was a sorry looking little thing, from a really good cow, so I even didn`t offer to sell him, but I bred a few to him cleanup...and just to keep his ass out of my way and hold down bull fights, I left him with his spring calving group of cows...about 30 days into the calving season in fact before getting him out...and three or four old cows including Sniff`s dam came in heat in about thirty days and got bred wayyyy early creating Sniff the Wind; Sniff`s sire jumped an already crashed in gate when I loaded him, pissed me off, so I sent him to Tn where he lived out his days, and Blythemaker is breeding his daughters this summer ...
sometimes the force is just with you

Good story which I had forgotten. Point of my question was that there were not pedigrees full of AI animals to get that set of heifers or even top selling natural service bulls from your sales. You must of had a bad golf day when you tried loading him because I don't normally see you get too pissed off loading bulls.

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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:55 am

had he been pretty, I would have been more tolerant Smile which is part of my agenda here; to develop a greater appreciation for ugly...especially inbred ugly...if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it might might be easier to change our notion of beauty than change our cattle...
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:36 pm

MKeeney wrote:
had he been pretty, I would have been more tolerant Smile which is part of my agenda here; to develop a greater appreciation for ugly...especially inbred ugly...if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it might might be easier to change our notion of beauty than change our cattle...

I`ve always despised the cow pictured below; she was always supposed to fail, and now 12 past with 11 calves weaned; she never has. She was supposed to fail because she was too tall; had impurities in her pedigree, gave too much milk, and had too much udder. {pictured 10 days after weaning}



She was sired by a Traveler 5204 son; "hard doing" things I always thought by looking...especially if you look through the eyes of a couple of the "fleshing ease" proponents eyes... Dennis discusses the outstanding fertility; even in a tighted up version, in 5204`s dam somewhere here previously... the 5204 son`s great grandsire was none other than PDBS, and yes, the three I had failed miserably as cows here in general...but while pedigree can be made perfect in hindsight, it doesn`t offer any great foresight to anyone other than the owner who is familiar personally with the characteristics of the individuals in the pedigrees, wayyyy beyond seeing the sire`s name in the Angus Journal etc...
Anyway, she has drawn my ire again by having an attractive Sniffy calf ; a potential bull to use on his half sisters...



so , I actually looked up her pedigree yesterday, out of curiosity after ten years of ignoring her...certainly she`s an outcrossed cow, and so is she a "parent stock" producing cow, or just a manifestation of heterosis? Always a question to be asked in selection analysis...
but kinda startling, her mother was an Encore daughter that produced to 17...with a bad udder...her mother was a Chief daughter that made it to about 15...with a bad udder...her mother was Wye sired, produced to 18, with a good udder...in hingsight, the bad udder was likely introduced through Shearbrook Shoshone, the sire of Chief...hindsight again...
the cows behind the cow pictured were all of the same type, and totally different than the cow pictured; ...bigger gutted, less frame, more feminity.....more reason to think heterosis is involved in the "hated" cow...

this cow descends from those bad uddered cows...


she`s of the same body type as those cows behind ugly BECAUSE she was bred to a bull of the type of those cows, who improved udders; three times to Encore...
the "hated" cow was bred to be tall; her sire used as a "terminal" of sorts...talk about mis-applied selection; breed for terminal and get fertility... Question
I`m thinking about Norcal`s post where he said his cows weren't eye pleasing pretty but functional...same with old ugly...
and now I`m also thinking about the chip hines "if one can do it, they all can" ...applying that here then disputes everything he and Pharo says, because this old gal has "done it"...want to make them all do it? I don`t, but you could cross'em and cull them until they all did...and then cross and cull the next generation until they all did...and just keep on crossing and culling...and them promote how unique they are because you cull so hard....

if it ain`t unique, it ain't worth much money...but if you can make them all be what one is, how can they be unique Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:53 pm

I like your stories Mike. They kind of make me warm and fuzzy. I like being warm and fuzzy. I like your pictures too. I just like about anything other than mechanicin'. So how many of those heifers are going to be mine when they turn 40? I will have the only herd of 40 year old cows with 30 pound yearing epd's and everyone else will either have plus 300's or minus 300's, depending on the outcome of the pendulum swing. I might be able to catch it geeing and hawwing both ways though, and get stinking rich in the process.

Bootheel, looking to the future of being 75 years old, with old cows, not accomplishing a durn thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:00 pm

Bootheel wrote:
I like your stories Mike. They kind of make me warm and fuzzy. I like being warm and fuzzy. I like your pictures too. I just like about anything other than mechanicin'. So how many of those heifers are going to be mine when they turn 40? I will have the only herd of 40 year old cows with 30 pound yearing epd's and everyone else will either have plus 300's or minus 300's, depending on the outcome of the pendulum swing. I might be able to catch it geeing and hawwing both ways though, and get stinking rich in the process.

Bootheel, looking to the future of being 75 years old, with old cows, not accomplishing a durn thing.
I think you`re on to something Joe ...great progress and profits can be made just by staying put... Smile
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:39 pm



Mike it may just be me but your cow reminded me of this cow of mine, down to the shape of the white on the udder if her leg was back, I posted this picture before with her 16th calf at side.





If she can do it all of them should be able to, just need the list of ingredients.... Walnuts!!! I hate Walnuts!!! pale



.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:43 am

Craig,
that`s what we need to popularize on these poorer uddered cows...pics with the back leg forward Smile
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:31 am

Why keep these older cows around? I thought the whole key to improvement was to just keep turning those generations over and using those young bulls and keeping the heifers? You are ruining my plan to get rid of mid age cows that are 7-10 years old and looking good with some of my young heifers Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:40 am

Mark Day wrote:
Why keep these older cows around? I thought the whole key to improvement was to just keep turning those generations over and using those young bulls and keeping the heifers? You are ruining my plan to get rid of mid age cows that are 7-10 years old and looking good with some of my young heifers Shocked
Increasing cow numbers is the primary reason...and depends on what someone wants to buy...cows or heifers etc....since my income is primarily dependent on the commercial marketplace, old cows produce more pounds and fewer problems than heifers as well...the old cows have already been schooled and paid their tuition... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:22 pm

typical...mk

Improving Longevity of Beef Heifers - Dr. George Perry, South Dakota State University Extension

Research has indicated it takes the net revenue from approximately 6 calves to cover the development and production costs of each replacement heifer. In addition, any cow that misses a single calving is not likely to recover the lost revenue of that missed calf. Therefore, longevity of a beef female is very important to the sustainability and profitability of any beef operation. Considering the importance of longevity, an important question is as follows: Why are females culled from a beef herd? According to the 2008 NAHMS survey the greatest percentage of cows culled from the herd were for pregnancy status (33.0%); other reasons for culling included age or bad teeth (32.1%), economic reasons (14.6%), other reproductive problems (3.9%), producing poor calves (3.6%), temperament (3.6%), injury (2.9%), udder problems (2.7%), bad eyes (1.8%), and other problems (1.8%). Furthermore, 15.6% of animals culled were less than 5 years of age and 31.8% were 5 to 9 years of age. These females that are culled from a herd prior to producing 6 calves increase the developmental cost of other heifers and do not contribute to the profitability and sustainability of the farm.

To achieve maximum life-time productivity heifers need to calve by 24 months of age, and heifers that lose a pregnancy or conceive late in the breeding season are likely to not have enough time to rebreed during a defined breeding season. In addition, heifers that calve early with their first calf have a longer post-partum interval and are more likely to breed back as two year olds and continue to calve early in the calving season. This is important to overall profitability since age of calf at weaning is the single largest factor that affects weaning weight.

In a recent collaborative study between SDSU and the USDA- Meat Animal Research Center (MARC), longevity data were collected on 2,195 heifers from producers in South Dakota, and longevity and weaning weight data were collected on 16,549 heifers at the USDA-MARC. Data was limited to heifers that conceived during their 1st breeding season. Heifers that calved with their first calf during the first 21 day period of the calving season had increased longevity compared to heifers that calved in the second 21 day period, or later. Average longevity for South Dakota heifers that calved in the 1st or later period was 5.1 � 0.1 and 3.9 � 0.1 yr, respectively. Average longevity for USDA-MARC heifers that calved in the 1st, 2nd, and later period was 8.2 � 0.3, 7.6 � 0.5, and 7.2 � 0.1 yr, respectively. Calving period also influenced weaning weight of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th calf born from these heifers. In addition, calving period influenced total pounds weaned and average weaning weight, with heifers that calved during the 1st period having increased weaning weights, total pounds weaned, and average weaning weight compared to heifers calving in the 2nd period or later, and heifers calving during the 2nd period had increased weaning weight, total pounds weaned, and average weaning weight compared to heifers calving later.

Therefore, heifers that calved early in the calving season with their first calf had increased longevity and pounds weaned compared to heifers that calved later in the calving season. So when we think about increasing longevity in our beef cattle, we need to begin with management decisions that impact our replacement heifers. If we get them developed correctly they will continue to be productive for several years.


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LCP



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:10 pm

Quote :
they will continue to be productive for several years.

Setting the bar a little low, aren't we? How about "many" rather than "several"? I know Dr. Perry does most of his teaching/research in the area of reproduction, not genetics. But to make no mention of genetics as a driver of longevity? I'm a little embarrassed of my alma mater.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:42 pm

LCP wrote:
Quote :
they will continue to be productive for several years.

Setting the bar a little low, aren't we? How about "many" rather than "several"? I know Dr. Perry does most of his teaching/research in the area of reproduction, not genetics. But to make no mention of genetics as a driver of longevity? I'm a little embarrassed of my alma mater.
LL wrote long ago that "you can breed whatever type you want so long as you are willing to support that type"...so the devil may not be in the details, but in the support Smile
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LCP



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:33 pm

MKeeney wrote:
LCP wrote:
Quote :
they will continue to be productive for several years.

Setting the bar a little low, aren't we? How about "many" rather than "several"? I know Dr. Perry does most of his teaching/research in the area of reproduction, not genetics. But to make no mention of genetics as a driver of longevity? I'm a little embarrassed of my alma mater.
LL wrote long ago that "you can breed whatever type you want so long as you are willing to support that type"...so the devil may not be in the details, but in the support Smile

Funny you mention that, I read some ultra-low input conversation the other day, and I'm thinking some of them should sell the cows and breed buffalo.
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