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 Longevity post...rescued from the ruins

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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sun May 22, 2011 9:15 am

I am not a hog farmer, nor do I play one here. I did hear some interesting stories on terminal selection, in artificial, highly contorted environment from the local pork producer. He raises his critters outside, on dirt, pasture, and a short time in gestation stalls. He has had trouble over the years finding acceptable boars, that can tolerate, much less thrive or reproduce under his management conditions. He spent six months rehabilitating a concrete, AI boar. After he got him fit enough to actually be able to walk, the boar would go stand by a sow, ejacualate, and lay back down. The one time $3000 dollar stud, now worth $30, selected for ability to eat, gain and grade, never bred a sow naturally. In the meantime thousands of his progeny were perpetuated in the mainstream confinement system. This is just one of many examples of confinement hogs that had failed him miserably. If you think buying lean, mean, breeding machine, maternal bulls is a difficult task, just go and try to find some boars. Surely there is a lesson to be learned in there somewhere, for someone, if the blinders of more can be pulled to the side for just a moment.



Life is Good

Bootheel
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sun May 22, 2011 9:15 am

Quote :
So if an inbred nubbin whose toes are a little long produces an inbred 400 lb calf every 15 months, and those little calves go on to produce wonderful smokey babies, she's a successful parent stock cow nubbin. Even though she is almost certainly not profitable as a beef producer.

I swear, this is a hard story to tell.


Also a hard hook to swallow. Sounds like you did not do much to start your program to have the poor structure. She'll need a walker before she's proven her longevity. How inbred are you talking? 35% or more? less than 25%? Would this be the proverbial runt of the group to be sure you picked the one with the most homogeneous genes of the lot?
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sun May 22, 2011 3:43 pm

Not a hog farmer either, but I do play one on TV... I do know where there is a boar that will flat breed naturally as long as you will let him.

Having a little trouble with two of my gilts that did the best job for me. This is where that not really a hog farmer part comes in... Weaned the pigs at about 45 days and turned the gilts loose in the woods. a couple of days later, I heard a bunch of carrying on going on and looked and two of them were down. maybe a broken hip or pelvis according to the vet. They had all come into heat and were riding around and making a big racket. He advised me to knock them in the head. I of course didn't, they are both back up walking again now. Reluctantly. Don't know if they will recover fully or not, am giving them a chance though.

He gave me an interesting lecture on everything that I am doing wrong, including but not limited to no crates and no total confinement, no contract with a feed company etc. He told me that 15-20% of all first time gilts go down or are culled due to injury. He said that there is no structure and durability in them. I have hopes that the Berky gilts will be better than their mommas, but may have to get some Large blacks or Glouchester old spots in here if I keep doing this.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sun May 22, 2011 5:59 pm

Large Blacks you say? Have I got a deal for you. You do realize that they are extremely rare and valuable.

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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sun May 22, 2011 9:04 pm

Gregory Walker wrote:
Not a hog farmer either, but I do play one on TV... I do know where there is a boar that will flat breed naturally as long as you will let him.

Having a little trouble with two of my gilts that did the best job for me. This is where that not really a hog farmer part comes in... Weaned the pigs at about 45 days and turned the gilts loose in the woods. a couple of days later, I heard a bunch of carrying on going on and looked and two of them were down. maybe a broken hip or pelvis according to the vet. They had all come into heat and were riding around and making a big racket. He advised me to knock them in the head. I of course didn't, they are both back up walking again now. Reluctantly. Don't know if they will recover fully or not, am giving them a chance though.

He gave me an interesting lecture on everything that I am doing wrong, including but not limited to no crates and no total confinement, no contract with a feed company etc. He told me that 15-20% of all first time gilts go down or are culled due to injury. He said that there is no structure and durability in them. I have hopes that the Berky gilts will be better than their mommas, but may have to get some Large blacks or Glouchester old spots in here if I keep doing this.

I am not a hog farmer either, but I have Glouchester old spots and (accidentally) found a Hereford boar. It will be about 2 1/2 months before I found out if there is heterosis, but actually what I am really interested in is how well they eat (for breakfast)! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sun May 22, 2011 10:00 pm

I like those Angus pigs Tom, look right tasty. Will they eat Locust roots, pond water, and dead goats, yet still bring home the bacon? I love thread drift, MK might have to work his magic once again.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sun May 22, 2011 10:12 pm

Bootheel wrote:
I like those Angus pigs Tom, look right tasty. Will they eat Locust roots, pond water, and dead goats, yet still bring home the bacon? I love thread drift, MK might have to work his magic once again.
I think we actually have thread tsunamis here instead of drifts...but I think it`s still like cattle breeding...make a mating, and sit back and see what happens Smile
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Mon May 23, 2011 7:12 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
So if an inbred nubbin whose toes are a little long produces an inbred 400 lb calf every 15 months, and those little calves go on to produce wonderful smokey babies, she's a successful parent stock cow nubbin. Even though she is almost certainly not profitable as a beef producer.

I swear, this is a hard story to tell.


Also a hard hook to swallow. Sounds like you did not do much to start your program to have the poor structure. She'll need a walker before she's proven her longevity. How inbred are you talking? 35% or more? less than 25%? Would this be the proverbial runt of the group to be sure you picked the one with the most homogeneous genes of the lot?

She's hypothetical, but since she is, I'll tell you she doesn't need a walker-- toes aren't that bad, but she's clearly not perfect. But she's 15, with her 10th calf at side, she's 28% inbred. Her calves have all been sired by her half brothers, and they are all kinda sorry too. Her sons were tasty enough, but her daughters were all bred to Charolais bulls, and produced pretty damn good babies. Is she bad or is she the uber nubbin?
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Mon May 23, 2011 7:13 am

I'm kinda scared of pigs.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Mon May 23, 2011 7:51 am

Quote :
She's hypothetical, but since she is, I'll tell you she doesn't need a walker-- toes aren't that bad, but she's clearly not perfect. But she's 15, with her 10th calf at side, she's 28% inbred. Her calves have all been sired by her half brothers, and they are all kinda sorry too. Her sons were tasty enough, but her daughters were all bred to Charolais bulls, and produced pretty damn good babies. Is she bad or is she the uber nubbin?

Well, I was just trying to have a little humor on the walker, but we'll laugh about it later! Embarassed The next question I'd pose would be the purpose of the cow: did you create parent stock from her or was she just an inbred cow that you had and now you have results. I am a little unsure on where we are going with the story. Did you hope that one day she would produce breeding stock?
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Mon May 23, 2011 8:00 am



Here is my offering of a nubbin. 25% inbred yearling from a fescue grazing/zero grain development. Out breeding a few weeks ago. Suits me fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Mon May 23, 2011 8:48 am

Tom D wrote:
Large Blacks you say? Have I got a deal for you. You do realize that they are extremely rare and valuable.


Are those yours Tom? Send me a couple, and I do know they are rare and valuable, I could throw a scarf or two in on the deal...
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Mon May 23, 2011 9:08 am

I'll go mark a couple "GW" right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Tue May 24, 2011 8:21 am

I ordered a ham from Heritage Pork. It was the best I ever ate. I ordered another. It was the best I ever ate. Now I can not eat ordinary ham. I ordered bacon from Heritage Pork. It was the best bacon I ever ate. Now when we can afford the idea, we buy anything pork like from Heritage Pork. My question? Since I don't know about hogs, pigs, or breeds of types, whats the deal with the type I like to eat. Dennis Voss, in the vicinity of ignorance on pigs
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Tue May 24, 2011 1:12 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
I ordered a ham from Heritage Pork. It was the best I ever ate. I ordered another. It was the best I ever ate. Now I can not eat ordinary ham. I ordered bacon from Heritage Pork. It was the best bacon I ever ate. Now when we can afford the idea, we buy anything pork like from Heritage Pork. My question? Since I don't know about hogs, pigs, or breeds of types, whats the deal with the type I like to eat. Dennis Voss, in the vicinity of ignorance on pigs

The longevity or life expectency to please, from commodity, no name, thousand acres of saline injected solution, crap, food-like product, that you and most have come to expect, may be more the answer than the genetics. I think it most definetly plays a role, but, just like the kill'em and chill'em, ship'em, of todays beef procurers' methods, handling before and after slaughter, are equally important.

I love to eat me some chicken legs. When I was a kid they were as big as my head, clean, refreshing, delicious. Nowdays a quail has a bigger set of runnin' gears, and you cannot get one that does not look like a hard mouthed pointer had to make sure he was well tenderized, while bringing him back to you. Everyone is busted up, bruised, broken, bloody, and my kindergartener could eat a plate full of them, rather than one making a meal, all sacrificed for the flavorless, dry, overdeveloped, ammonia infused, boneless skinless, saline added chicken breast, that is so good Rolling Eyes for us.

My wife and I have become food snobs, according to the general sheeple, actuallly expecting our food to have a flavor other than salt mixed with corn syrup. The youngins have become so accustomed to real food, that fast food usually results in them turning up their noses,,,,,go figure.


Bootheel......hungry and ready to be fulfilled


Last edited by Bootheel on Tue May 24, 2011 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Tue May 24, 2011 9:59 pm

If the breasts are bigger than the thighs, the chick ain't natural.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Tue May 24, 2011 11:51 pm

Tom D wrote:
If the breasts are bigger than the thighs, the chick ain't natural.

I did'nt say a word not one word Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed May 25, 2011 4:47 am

Bootheel wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
I ordered a ham from Heritage Pork. It was the best I ever ate. I ordered another. It was the best I ever ate. Now I can not eat ordinary ham. I ordered bacon from Heritage Pork. It was the best bacon I ever ate. Now when we can afford the idea, we buy anything pork like from Heritage Pork. My question? Since I don't know about hogs, pigs, or breeds of types, whats the deal with the type I like to eat. Dennis Voss, in the vicinity of ignorance on pigs

The longevity or life expectency to please, from commodity, no name, thousand acres of saline injected solution, crap, food-like product, that you and most have come to expect, may be more the answer than the genetics. I think it most definetly plays a role, but, just like the kill'em and chill'em, ship'em, of todays beef procurers' methods, handling before and after slaughter, are equally important.

I love to eat me some chicken legs. When I was a kid they were as big as my head, clean, refreshing, delicious. Nowdays a quail has a bigger set of runnin' gears, and you cannot get one that does not look like a hard mouthed pointer had to make sure he was well tenderized, while bringing him back to you. Everyone is busted up, bruised, broken, bloody, and my kindergartener could eat a plate full of them, rather than one making a meal, all sacrificed for the flavorless, dry, overdeveloped, ammonia infused, boneless skinless, saline added chicken breast, that is so good Rolling Eyes for us.

My wife and I have become food snobs, according to the general sheeple, actuallly expecting our food to have a flavor other than salt mixed with corn syrup. The youngins have become so accustomed to real food, that fast food usually results in them turning up their noses,,,,,go figure.


Bootheel......hungry and ready to be fulfilled

just to be fair Smile , I must give the mainstrean viewpoint...

SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE
PART VI – FEEDING THE WORLD
Lydia Oakley [name changed for privacy] lives near Tar Heel, North Carolina. North Carolina is pork country and she raises pigs. Lydia is no factory farmer. She owns 60 acres 4 miles south of town and raises pigs for sale on her place. Lydia is proud of her pigs and she has grown her business every year for the past five and now produces 10 free range pigs a month and sells them at the local farmers market in Raleigh, North Carolina. None of the pigs are raised in pens and she gives them no antibiotics or hormones and has a local butcher kill and process the pigs for her. She is able to sell them for over a dollar a pound.
Down the road from Lydia is a Smithfield Foods pork plant. The Smithfield plant butchers 32,000 hogs a day six days a week. They sell the pork products all over the country and sometime all over the world. Grocery markets depend on a steady supply of Smithfield pork to fill their meat shelves and provide daily pork to the consumers that frequent their stores. These consumers are very cost conscious and currently pay the equivalent of .62 cents a pound for these pigs.
In order to produce the same amount of pork as the Smithfield plant, it would require 200,000 Lydias on 12 million acres of land -- one third of the land mass of North Carolina. This ignores whether the 200,000 Lydias could make a living producing 10 pigs a month. The hard reality is efficient farming requires economies of scale and those options are not desired by Lydia.

Feeding the world is no easy proposition. Large efficient operations are necessary to produce the $190 billion dollars worth of meat produced in this country each year. Free range pigs make the University wives and wealthy consumers in Raleigh feel good but detailed analysis presents some problems. Our country's food supply is not sustainable if production is given over to the Lydia Oakleys of this country.
The same analysis would apply to grass fed beef or organic vegetables. Crop yields and animal size is reduced and the area to produce the food is increased. There would simply be to little land for too much demand for food forgetting the cost issue. The cost of all food would easily be multiples of the current cost. More important than increased cost is the heartland issue of overall production which would fall to one third of current production.
Farming without the large efficient farmers would create shortages requiring the need for food rationing. Rationing could be by price or government decree. Either way a lot of people are going to go hungry. This is the inevitable and natural consequence of eliminating our most efficient farmers. Obama idea is to rework the farm bill and eliminate any payments to the largest and most efficient farmers. Only small farmers would be allowed payments or subsidies which will tend to prevent the large farmers from competing.
Eliminating the large farmer will eventually require millions of new small farmers. It will require financing for new farmers with no equity. Urban workers will be recalled to rural America with no training or willingness to work or guaranteed viable economic model. This failed business model has played out in countries all over the world.


NOTICE

The sustainable agriculture series will continue next week. Archives of previous chapters are linked below.

SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE
PART ONE -- SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE

PART TWO -- THE FACTORY FARMER

PART THREE -- THE FAMILY FARMER

PART FOUR -- THE NEW RELIGION

PART FIVE -- MICHAEL POLLAN

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed May 25, 2011 7:28 am

Quote :
If the breasts are bigger than the thighs, the chick ain't natural.

Tom, are you still discussing poultry?

Mike, your conventional article is pretty interesting in that it assumes one country needs to feed all of the other countries and it almost leads a reader to believe that "factory pork" is not an economic option. But when I read the last 3 paragraphs I realize that it is not an agricultual article but a political one; as if the government does not already deal with food prices, policies of individual politicians, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed May 25, 2011 7:47 am

The obvious question is why do the largest and most efficient farmers Laughing need government payments? I suspect the pig woman neither gets or wants any.
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed May 25, 2011 7:59 am

Angus 62 wrote:
The obvious question is why do the largest and most efficient farmers Laughing need government payments? I suspect the pig woman neither gets or wants any.
got a chuckle out of that myself...not so anti-government after all , is he? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed May 25, 2011 8:58 am

I am confused... do those 200,000 + pigs per week all stay in North Carolina for consumption? If not, why would the 12 million acres to replace them have to be in North Carolina?

I have heard rumors that North Carolina has a surplus of pollution from hogs, maybe if the hog production was decentralized, the pollution would be as well.

I guess, we all have to grow corn to feed the whole wide world, but what if we didn't what could we grow instead?
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed May 25, 2011 9:38 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If the breasts are bigger than the thighs, the chick ain't natural.

Tom, are you still discussing poultry?

Thanks for clearing clearing that up...I was beginning to think I ain't natural!!! Embarassed Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Wed May 25, 2011 10:30 am

what about feral hogs why relocate? so many of them that they can make a show of it.

I can see it now Mc Donald's feral bacon cheese burger. cant be any better then a angus burger
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PostSubject: Re: Longevity post...rescued from the ruins   Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:36 pm

got tired of looking for a proper place for Sniffy`s mother Bootheel; seems this thread drifted from longevity a bit...anyway, if she makes it to 25, you get her along with the inbred daughter...
looking good at 16 plus; 5 days after weaning a calf...the right type for longevity or just luck?

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