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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 12:38 am

Oldtimer wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer, I'm flushing this cow Reg.12648388, so don't lump me into your conspiracies. Also I have some real nice Bannon progeny, a son and some real nice cows. DV, Back from 4.9 where I'm teaching a couple guys how to sing the Patty Cakes song.


Dennis- looks like an interesting cow... So if you're flushing her I would take it she fits into your "type"-- altho she doesn't fully fit the pedigree purity chasers demands...
And I guess that is all I'm trying to get across is that each person has a "type" of cattle they are looking for/breeding for- and have the best maternal experiences with- and that not one type fits all.... And that is the direction they go with there herd...
I think my type fits much of the same as yours- except because of the more often greater extremes of our winters I look harder at more fleshing ability....Cows that can go out and graze a few months on dry grass after their calves are weaned and pack on some fat that helps get them thru the winter... One of the things I like about the daughters out of the Bannon X 602C...
I had one of those purity folks amost brown stain their panties when they heard I bought a maternal granddaughter of 602C-- but now that they've seen the bull as he's aged- and the calves he produces they've had to change much of their view...

And I agree with the years of Mikes preachings on the other sites (and his website) about simplification and moderation in all traits- which sometimes with his posts now I get confused to where he is going--A models, B models, C models? ....

So Dylan if you are right and Shoshone angus can only exist in the true pure form.... Since they will no longer be marketed as angus- Shoshone will eventually no longer exist in the angus breed....

Thanks Oldtimer. She is an interesting old cow and she never missed a year. The thing I'm struck with Oldtimer is all of this dialogue on cattle breeding going on here and elsewhere serves only one purpose. Breed the type of cattle you believe in and stand firm. All this stuff just needs to push oneself into one's self. It's a joy to breed cattle and it's an even bigger joy to breed them creatively like you do to fit your environment. Don't take a back seat to anyone. I spent an awful lot of years making things complex for myself trying to breed cattle. Now that I've figured out a simpler way outside the mainstream, I'm quite happy. It's important that your cattle make you happy. When you go out and look at them it should make you happy.
Dennis Voss, at the end of a quiet day.
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robert



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 6:56 am

Bootheel wrote:
Mr. Keeney says there are no Great ones, or really bad, or terrible cattle. I would agree with the former, but the later, oh my goodness have I had some bad ones, but they were mostly by those deemed as great ones.

isn't that the truth!!!
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 7:15 am

Bootheel wrote:
I was really starting to think I lost my mind, maybe I did, then Tom said he understood me, thanks Tom, maybe you could come follow me around for a couple of weeks, and decipher this mess of soup sandwiches. I keep having paranoid delusions, Dylan is not helping, as he edited his post, so I don't know if the Turkmenistanmeninblack, infiltrated my screen, or if the Troll slipped some decorative covering flakings into my snoose can, but either way, good job Biggs, you've gained a peg on the definitive meter. Also earning his merit badge for co-instructional qualifications for testosterone enhancement therapy classes, to be held in conjuction with Revolution Preparation Certification.

Some say we, I, waste our time with nonsense, but I don't care, and for me it is all about human nature and the workings of the mind, to achieve whatever goal it is we are after. I find it a marvelously fascinating study on human behavior and my inability to proof read, keeps me entertained. Purity, seems to be in question, and I am not an apologist, but, make no mistake I have nothing pure in any sense of the word, very few do, and if they do, does it really matter. Mean Spirit brings up my latest unpure endeavor, Mr. Sniffy, I call him, and he is working his way to knighthood and soon to be Sir Sniffy, as I heard Sam call him the other day. Sam is skeered of him though, and I don't know if it is respect or fear, but it is always Sir Sniffy......never Sir Sniffy the Great though, as that would be pure drival, and a little over the top, and with the set of swingers ol' Sam has, I don't think he will reduce himself to such peasantry just yet.

Mr. Keeney says there are no Great ones, or really bad, or terrible cattle. I would agree with the former, but the later, oh my goodness have I had some bad ones, but they were mostly by those deemed as great ones. So it is easy to become disheartened by this business, that should have been so very simple, and is becoming more so, by methodologies outlined and stacked up in the Corner.

Signed,

not Mike Keeney

Hey not Mike Keeney, glad you noticed my edit.

Thanks coach!

Regards self deprecation, a tone at times that acknowledges a sence of humility, as Dennis remarked in his first post to me he had zero credibility when it comes to cattle breeding, I also know that breeding cattle with 100% confidence is false bravado at best and bears on delusional in the extreme.

One only needs to pay a brief visit to 4.9 to observe the outcome of that. Now that's an outcome that surely reinforces the value of at least a shred of humility.

Shocked

Now I certainly wouldn't want to be percieved as lilly livered so please keep me in check.

Thanks

Dylan Biggs

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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 7:28 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer, I'm flushing this cow Reg.12648388, so don't lump me into your conspiracies. Also I have some real nice Bannon progeny, a son and some real nice cows. DV, Back from 4.9 where I'm teaching a couple guys how to sing the Patty Cakes song.

A 15 year old cow out of a 15 year old cow. Surely these ET calves will score a "5" on the new longevity index, but maybe not, I'm not sure, what do I really know anyway?
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 8:46 am

Tom D wrote:
I'm not sure, what do I really know anyway?

Buck up, show some confidence. You know

1. Some songs, some better than others
2. Some stuff about big equipment
3. Some stuff about American Idol and such.

And that's at a minimum-- you may very well know other stuff too.

Mean Spirit, on a sunny day in northern virginia, in the vicinity of a cup of Starbucks coffee, apparently financed by the smartest man in Iowa who reads cowboy novels.
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 8:52 am

Tom D, I'm flushing her to a frame 2.9 bull called "Pharonomoe" She is frame 4.9, so we have perfection. Pharonomoe will not die, mostly because the stuff inside his intestines lives forever. Where is Jack, he is my partner on this cow, where is Jack, anyone know where Jack went? DV, trying to locate Jack
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 9:27 am

Quote :
A 15 year old cow out of a 15 year old cow. Surely these ET calves will score a "5" on the new longevity index, but maybe not, I'm not sure, what do I really know anyway?

Bookies use numbers too! Not sure that a number index really impresses anyone unless they are betting on making their living off of unproven numbers and cooperator bull sales. I can remember when they had a number system for women. Some of those 10's are probably now 4's or less due to longevity!
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 1:33 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
I was really starting to think I lost my mind, maybe I did, then Tom said he understood me, thanks Tom, maybe you could come follow me around for a couple of weeks, and decipher this mess of soup sandwiches. I keep having paranoid delusions, Dylan is not helping, as he edited his post, so I don't know if the Turkmenistanmeninblack, infiltrated my screen, or if the Troll slipped some decorative covering flakings into my snoose can, but either way, good job Biggs, you've gained a peg on the definitive meter. Also earning his merit badge for co-instructional qualifications for testosterone enhancement therapy classes, to be held in conjuction with Revolution Preparation Certification.

Some say we, I, waste our time with nonsense, but I don't care, and for me it is all about human nature and the workings of the mind, to achieve whatever goal it is we are after. I find it a marvelously fascinating study on human behavior and my inability to proof read, keeps me entertained. Purity, seems to be in question, and I am not an apologist, but, make no mistake I have nothing pure in any sense of the word, very few do, and if they do, does it really matter. Mean Spirit brings up my latest unpure endeavor, Mr. Sniffy, I call him, and he is working his way to knighthood and soon to be Sir Sniffy, as I heard Sam call him the other day. Sam is skeered of him though, and I don't know if it is respect or fear, but it is always Sir Sniffy......never Sir Sniffy the Great though, as that would be pure drival, and a little over the top, and with the set of swingers ol' Sam has, I don't think he will reduce himself to such peasantry just yet.

Mr. Keeney says there are no Great ones, or really bad, or terrible cattle. I would agree with the former, but the later, oh my goodness have I had some bad ones, but they were mostly by those deemed as great ones. So it is easy to become disheartened by this business, that should have been so very simple, and is becoming more so, by methodologies outlined and stacked up in the Corner.

Signed,

not Mike Keeney

Hey not Mike Keeney, glad you noticed my edit.

Thanks coach!

Regards self deprecation, a tone at times that acknowledges a sence of humility, as Dennis remarked in his first post to me he had zero credibility when it comes to cattle breeding, I also know that breeding cattle with 100% confidence is false bravado at best and bears on delusional in the extreme.

One only needs to pay a brief visit to 4.9 to observe the outcome of that. Now that's an outcome that surely reinforces the value of at least a shred of humility.

Shocked

Now I certainly wouldn't want to be percieved as lilly livered so please keep me in check.

Thanks

Dylan Biggs


Cows and People, their behavior, relationship, and coexistence, together with one another and each other, provides much of my daily entertainment. Much wisdom is in your philosophical musings, Mr. Biggs.....today I am nice see, but not pussyfooting. Nor do I think you are as such. As much as the meaningless range wars, over at the RawarseBarSue, accomplish little, when someone speaks respectfully, in good conscious, there is no need for the "I am a dumbass" disclaimers. I have been there myself, most everyday I know that I know very little. But, I do know a little, much of which disproves the theology of BlackSoilPreacherman. Most of us here do like to quarrel a little, but most is all in good fun. Never, ever, take anything I have to say very seriously, but if you find some good in it, good for you and me alike. Much as General King Two Horses, has outlined, it is the Independence of thought, self reliance, and confidence, that we can still survive outside the mainstream of acceptability. The thoughts, and quality of reasoning in this thread, and the gathering of peoples therin, excites me, though I have no idea of my own role or use in the Revolution, other than to lob a shot, when the enemy shows hisself.

Signed,
one of the personalities of Bootheel

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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 8:51 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Mean Spirit wrote:
I might be wrong-- I am often enough-- but I'm pretty sure Shoshone purity is of little importance in what were talking about here. Anyone who knows about Schearbrook Shoshone would show little excitement just because he's a Shoshone bull. And anyone who knows about ka sniff the wind would probably recognize his value despite his mongrelized ancestry. This is not a purity movement. If it were, papers proving purity would be required. Clearly, they are not.
exactly...purpose, not purity...

Point taken.
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 11:13 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer, I'm flushing this cow Reg.12648388, so don't lump me into your conspiracies. Also I have some real nice Bannon progeny, a son and some real nice cows. DV, Back from 4.9 where I'm teaching a couple guys how to sing the Patty Cakes song.


Dennis- looks like an interesting cow... So if you're flushing her I would take it she fits into your "type"-- altho she doesn't fully fit the pedigree purity chasers demands...
And I guess that is all I'm trying to get across is that each person has a "type" of cattle they are looking for/breeding for- and have the best maternal experiences with- and that not one type fits all.... And that is the direction they go with there herd...
I think my type fits much of the same as yours- except because of the more often greater extremes of our winters I look harder at more fleshing ability....Cows that can go out and graze a few months on dry grass after their calves are weaned and pack on some fat that helps get them thru the winter... One of the things I like about the daughters out of the Bannon X 602C...
I had one of those purity folks amost brown stain their panties when they heard I bought a maternal granddaughter of 602C-- but now that they've seen the bull as he's aged- and the calves he produces they've had to change much of their view...

And I agree with the years of Mikes preachings on the other sites (and his website) about simplification and moderation in all traits- which sometimes with his posts now I get confused to where he is going--A models, B models, C models? ....

So Dylan if you are right and Shoshone angus can only exist in the true pure form.... Since they will no longer be marketed as angus- Shoshone will eventually no longer exist in the angus breed....

Thanks Oldtimer. She is an interesting old cow and she never missed a year. The thing I'm struck with Oldtimer is all of this dialogue on cattle breeding going on here and elsewhere serves only one purpose. Breed the type of cattle you believe in and stand firm. All this stuff just needs to push oneself into one's self. It's a joy to breed cattle and it's an even bigger joy to breed them creatively like you do to fit your environment. Don't take a back seat to anyone. I spent an awful lot of years making things complex for myself trying to breed cattle. Now that I've figured out a simpler way outside the mainstream, I'm quite happy. It's important that your cattle make you happy. When you go out and look at them it should make you happy.
Dennis Voss, at the end of a quiet day.

AMEN--- and I can tell you since two days ago- when the waters finally parted- I got the cows out on the spring pasture- they look 100% better (next to last old cow calved)- and I feel 100% better than I did a week ago (even tho the fences look like s*t)....
And I'm still a believer that there are some "unknown/littleknown" cattle and angus producers thru out our state that are raising some of the top quality cattle that fit my area....
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Thu May 05, 2011 11:46 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer, I'm flushing this cow Reg.12648388, so don't lump me into your conspiracies. Also I have some real nice Bannon progeny, a son and some real nice cows. DV, Back from 4.9 where I'm teaching a couple guys how to sing the Patty Cakes song.


Dennis- looks like an interesting cow... So if you're flushing her I would take it she fits into your "type"-- altho she doesn't fully fit the pedigree purity chasers demands...
And I guess that is all I'm trying to get across is that each person has a "type" of cattle they are looking for/breeding for- and have the best maternal experiences with- and that not one type fits all.... And that is the direction they go with there herd...
I think my type fits much of the same as yours- except because of the more often greater extremes of our winters I look harder at more fleshing ability....Cows that can go out and graze a few months on dry grass after their calves are weaned and pack on some fat that helps get them thru the winter... One of the things I like about the daughters out of the Bannon X 602C...
I had one of those purity folks amost brown stain their panties when they heard I bought a maternal granddaughter of 602C-- but now that they've seen the bull as he's aged- and the calves he produces they've had to change much of their view...

And I agree with the years of Mikes preachings on the other sites (and his website) about simplification and moderation in all traits- which sometimes with his posts now I get confused to where he is going--A models, B models, C models? ....

So Dylan if you are right and Shoshone angus can only exist in the true pure form.... Since they will no longer be marketed as angus- Shoshone will eventually no longer exist in the angus breed....

Thanks Oldtimer. She is an interesting old cow and she never missed a year. The thing I'm struck with Oldtimer is all of this dialogue on cattle breeding going on here and elsewhere serves only one purpose. Breed the type of cattle you believe in and stand firm. All this stuff just needs to push oneself into one's self. It's a joy to breed cattle and it's an even bigger joy to breed them creatively like you do to fit your environment. Don't take a back seat to anyone. I spent an awful lot of years making things complex for myself trying to breed cattle. Now that I've figured out a simpler way outside the mainstream, I'm quite happy. It's important that your cattle make you happy. When you go out and look at them it should make you happy.
Dennis Voss, at the end of a quiet day.

AMEN--- and I can tell you since two days ago- when the waters finally parted- I got the cows out on the spring pasture- they look 100% better (next to last old cow calved)- and I feel 100% better than I did a week ago (even tho the fences look like s*t)....
And I'm still a believer that there are some "unknown/littleknown" cattle and angus producers thru out our state that are raising some of the top quality cattle that fit my area....

OT,
Do you grasp that one of the primary themes of this discussion site is that maybe the best source of those "top quality cattle that fit my area" are the ones already standing in your pasture?
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robert



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Fri May 06, 2011 6:30 am

seems to me the underlying premise to all mainstream thought regarding using AI stud sires is predicated on the notion that you don't have what our bulls have and the only way to 'progress' is to use latest greatest superbull from xyz wellknown herd, despite the fact that anyone who has AI'd for any number of years can write the exact same pedigree as 'superbull', but your bull will never be good enough because he doesn't have the right name or origin. From a genetic point of view that is completely contrary to 'progress' because if it was progress then you would already have the pieces, the numbers should say so (but you know they won't because we know what happens to 'the numbers' if you break from convention and use your own bulls) and so if 'progress' is not really progress but simply moving along at the same pace as everyone else then the only explanation for continuing to go with the flow is a lack of confidence in your own herd and your own genetics and your own vision, and perhaps that really is the root. RG in the vicinity of a swamp
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Fri May 06, 2011 6:52 am

Thats the best summary of it I've read, RG ,Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Fri May 06, 2011 7:17 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
Thats the best summary of it I've read, RG ,Thanks
excellent..., at day`s end, it`s not cattle genetics that determines breeding decisions and directions, it`s human nature...and the fellow who tried hardest to change human nature, found he could only forgive it...I find it pretty difficult to forgive{my human nature?}, but pretty easy to laugh at {my human nature?} , but first, you gotta be able to laugh at yourself...also difficult, for most of the time lately I`ve been laughing at DV antics,... who would have laughed at me falling off a running bull yesterday trying to get picture proof of how gentle my bulls are Very Happy Very Happy it really is so much fun to be a kid again...

When you're smiling, when you're smiling
The whole world smiles with you
When you're laughing, when you're laughing
The sun comes shining through

But when you're crying, you bring on the rain
So stop that sighing, be happy again
When you're smiling, keep on smiling
The whole world smiles with you

mk, prone, in the vicinity of soft mud

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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Fri May 06, 2011 7:57 am

robert wrote:
seems to me the underlying premise to all mainstream thought regarding using AI stud sires is predicated on the notion that you don't have what our bulls have and the only way to 'progress' is to use latest greatest superbull from xyz wellknown herd, despite the fact that anyone who has AI'd for any number of years can write the exact same pedigree as 'superbull', but your bull will never be good enough because he doesn't have the right name or origin. From a genetic point of view that is completely contrary to 'progress' because if it was progress then you would already have the pieces, the numbers should say so (but you know they won't because we know what happens to 'the numbers' if you break from convention and use your own bulls) and so if 'progress' is not really progress but simply moving along at the same pace as everyone else then the only explanation for continuing to go with the flow is a lack of confidence in your own herd and your own genetics and your own vision, and perhaps that really is the root. RG in the vicinity of a swamp


Right on down the tracks!
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Fri May 06, 2011 8:34 am

Oldtimer wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer, I'm flushing this cow Reg.12648388, so don't lump me into your conspiracies. Also I have some real nice Bannon progeny, a son and some real nice cows. DV, Back from 4.9 where I'm teaching a couple guys how to sing the Patty Cakes song.

Dennis- looks like an interesting cow... So if you're flushing her I would take it she fits into your "type"-- altho she doesn't fully fit the pedigree purity chasers demands...
And I guess that is all I'm trying to get across is that each person has a "type" of cattle they are looking for/breeding for- and have the best maternal experiences with- and that not one type fits all.... And that is the direction they go with there herd...
I think my type fits much of the same as yours- except because of the more often greater extremes of our winters I look harder at more fleshing ability....Cows that can go out and graze a few months on dry grass after their calves are weaned and pack on some fat that helps get them thru the winter... One of the things I like about the daughters out of the Bannon X 602C...
I had one of those purity folks amost brown stain their panties when they heard I bought a maternal granddaughter of 602C-- but now that they've seen the bull as he's aged- and the calves he produces they've had to change much of their view...

And I agree with the years of Mikes preachings on the other sites (and his website) about simplification and moderation in all traits- which sometimes with his posts now I get confused to where he is going--A models, B models, C models? ....

So Dylan if you are right and Shoshone angus can only exist in the true pure form.... Since they will no longer be marketed as angus- Shoshone will eventually no longer exist in the angus breed....

OT, this disussion is sounding more semantic all the time. Suffice it to say chances are my selection and your selection and anyone elses selection of replacement stock out of the same population of cattle at any given time would not be identical, and so over time your creative results will differ as will evryone elses to some extent or another. So even if we all start with the same base because of inevitable variation in the base and inevitable variation in selection preferences our outcomes will be different, even though genetically they have a common ancestry. So your evolving population over time is yours not mine. And obviously if I am lucky enough that one of my family wants to spend a life breeding cattle, over time their creative efforts will turn the population into their own, creatively speaking.
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Fri May 06, 2011 9:14 am

Hey Dennis, I'm still here, just sitting here in the weeds trying to keep up. I really laughed when OT posted his 602C post thinking about the cow we are flushing. I sure hope we can make some people brown stain their panties when they read that pedigree. If she doesn't maybe the 13245842 cow we are flushing will, but then again I really could give a shit what anyone thinks. I know what works here and at the end of the day I have to please only two people, myself and my banker and we're both still smiling. Keep up the good work partner, Jack

PS OT you have to quit listening to some of those bean counters over at the 4.9barY. Anyone can play here that believes in their own self and their own cattle. It's the fools that can only repeat what they are told or what they read from some stud catalog that get kicked around here like the lesser Jimmie who believes in his longevity score so much he couldn't remember the formula they used to reach the score. Had to call the mouth piece to get his story strait. A prime example of todays mainstream breeder. No one here wants to hear some promoters speach out of your mouth, they want to hear your speach and why YOU believe in it. Anyone who can't be more than that should stay out of here.

PSS great post RG!

Jack, somewhere in the vicinity of 4 billion ticks!
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Fri May 06, 2011 10:10 am

OT and Big Jim seem to have a lot in common...besides both disliking me!
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