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 Maternal Manifesto

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Hilly



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Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:12 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Were Angus cows ever "purely maternal" or was that just the buzz phrase of another era to make them something other than "everything to everybody"? Were any beef breeds ever "purely maternal"? How about any historic herds or lines?

From my Scottish perspective I don't think Angus were ever claimed to be purely maternal - it was the quality of their beef they were noted for. McCombie was famous for breaking the English breeds (presumably hereford and shorthorn) monopoly of Smithfield championships with his Aberdeen Angus cattle. Smithfield is the premier English fatstock show.

There is a breed that was intended to be purely maternal - and it's the one I have Laughing
A mission statement if you like from the foundation era of the Luing breed immediately post WW2.

Luing - the cow breed.
"The Luing is a breed of beef cattle which was evolved to help fill a gap in beef production - that of a need for a suitable cow which could be bred pure or crossed, and which would rear a well grown calf under adverse conditions. It is a breed which was bred to the modern requirements of the beef industry; to suit the environments enountered in many parts of the world; to be a self propogating breed; to be a good roughage convertor and therefor require less costly feeding, making it a commercially viable breed; to produce a female which is efficient as a mother."

Toot, Toot cheers

Iain, while we are on this train Wink

Thanks for the Luing newsletter, some well thought out articles that IMBSO did a good job of articulating the principal based breeding concept Smile

Any chance they could be posted?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:22 pm

EddieM wrote:
This was more of the American pioneer writing but I assume they were eating the ancestors of our beefs in Europe with or wthout a leg problem! But I do wonder, were all of the beef breeds in their original countries used for draft, too? Any historians here?

Not a historian by any means EddieM but it is my understanding that the European breeds (commonly called exotics or continentals in N America) were the ones with the dual draft ancestory as many of these countries (particularly Belgium to this day) preferred to eat horsemeat and pull plows with steers until relatively recent times in a European context. The British used horses for field work and steers for beef from way back further in history.
Will get to your post later Hilly I'm pushed for time just now Smile
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:39 pm

Quote :
I have no answers; just more questions...maybe the only thing wrong here is lack of humun understanding of nature`s genetic variation...causing us to over-value the few who seem so "perfect"; who then can only disappoint us...
Can a cow be worth $26,000 for her genetic contribution to a commercial herd?

I kinda thought with my wonderful question someone would point us to feral breeds such as Pineywoods, Florida Crackers and Longhorns. But then again, they were "selected" for survival and not for pure maternal. I am assuming that we are keeping fertility and materal strongly linked.

I do not have a definite answer on the cow price. I'm assuming that this is the Wye cow in question. I assumed a registered breeder bought her and plans to flush her. Depending on the number of offspring, we could give them a value, subtract out the cost to flush and raise them and try to think this out to the point of a headache. We could discuss this in a number of ways and we already have!! clown But we could back down the $1000's and ask if she would be worth $25000, $24000, $23000 and finally come to a point where a true commercial guy would buy her. But trying to put a price on a specific registered cow and relating her value to commercial production is like Antiques Road Show items or Elvis memoribia, a sports car, or a fancy office or all JD tractors and equipment or a pimped up truck or central heat and air or nice clothes or a boat or a lake house or an annual vacation to the islands or signed baseballs, or tickets to a concert or allegience to a sport or a teams booster club. Does the individual really have to have it, need it, can they really find a buyer for the estimated price today, will it make them money, does it make them any happier or is it something that one just wants? I did good on number of words but otherwise ....
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:59 pm

it was a handy figure on my mind, but any cow would do...might be better return in a $150,000 GAR cow...marbling, ya know Smile
maybe we need a maternal index Very Happy
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Sun May 01, 2011 7:34 am

Quote :
might be better return in a $150,000 GAR cow...marbling, ya know

Marbling is nice and so is a freeze brand but I'm not $ure that I'm much of an inve$tor! Let me know how it works out for you!
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Sun May 01, 2011 3:43 pm

Quote :
might be better return in a $150,000 GAR cow

Got to thinking about this from a standpoint of type. If I want a race horse this might be something to consider. scratch
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PostSubject: from LL   Mon May 02, 2011 12:46 pm

From LL..in cyan
"If you can smile when things go wrong, you have someone in mind to blame."

I smiled thinking how one should never stand below where birds of a feather flock together when Oldtimer wrote:

......Where I disagree with Larry, Mike, Dennis, and some of their followers is when they give up the fight- and instead of trying to get the registered angus breed back as the tops of the maternal breeds- throw in the towel to the AAA- and stop registering 20-30-40-50+ years of maternal breeding...

I know some are upset with the Angus Association (and I sure don't agree with a lot of their horsesh*t games) - but to me the way to really stick it up their butts is to beat them at their game-- not take your ball and go home half way in the middle of the game....I'm just trying to get back to the cattle we had 30-40 years ago-- that I first screwed up with the "continental kick" and then later when I went back to straight angus- the chasing of numbers and the fact that the only AI rep we had in our area was an ABS rep-- a bull pimp outfit that does nothing but chase numbers mostly...

My goal is for myself- and my son to eventually pass on those maternal qualities to other folks with registered angus (mainly because of the "registered" rules of so much of the public land/community pastures up here) --and maybe I'm selfish-- but I like the ability of using others years of work to cut corners in making those top maternal cattle....

Over the years I've watched "breed" after "breed" come to be-- from Santa Gertrudis to Balancers to Hybrid Masters to Hays Converters to Beefmasters to Maximizers (secret formula) to Droughtmasters to Black Herefords-- and a few dozen more "perfect" breeds... All claiming to be the best...Then we have some PCC's, Basic Blacks, and now "Tru-lines" with no papers all claiming to improve the cattle world-- while not wanting to maintain a pedigree or bloodline record....

Probably the best maternal cow out there is the old F1 Hereford/Angus cross-- but unless you have the ability to run 3 seperate herds they are difficult to maintain- and most folks don't want to go thru the efforts- or have the management ability of keeping their F1 line up- or their crossbreds at exactly 1/4 blood or 3/8ths blood or 1/2 blood or whatever it takes....
They just want cattle they can throw out there and will do a job for them...
I hate to see the chickenization/porkifying of the cattle industry-- where there is no breeds anymore--


Thank you Oldtimer for sharing your common concerns. I also have concerns about some of the common perceptions that I've highlighted in italics and bold. I can't speak for Mike or Dennis, but please know that I am not in a fight with AAA..... it took me nearly 40 years before I mutined to become the commander of my own flagship Smile From its inception the registered Angus breed was formed to be a beef breed.....who historically also valued the importance of maintaining cow families for whatever all the different reasons might have been over time. I certainly have no desire to "stick it up their butts to beat them at their game" since I do NOT consider breeding seedstock for the production of beef to be a game where we have a few winners and many losers, keeping score by the numbers, monetary or otherwise.

Like you, I do appreciate being able to use others years of work putting breeds together, especially our forefathers, in order that we may pick and choose from those efforts as a base to further develop special purpose strains..... maternal or otherwise. I see a great difference between the many directions of "breeds" and improving the prepotency of a functional type....and little difference between maintaining private or public bloodline records. My closed herd's basic bloodlines are no secret. In the business world, surely we are aware of the need for the laws of patents, copyrights, or trademarks to protect the prolonged and arduous investments of developers of unique products formed from common ingredients. I became aware of hustlers many years ago where on the streets of Times Square one could buy a proclaimed "Rolex" watch for $4.99.....they and their imitations will always be among us.

Breeds of cattle are a universal generic product available for anyone to draw genetic material therefrom. For those who want more realistic certainty in the cattle they buy "who will do a job for them", surely the integrity of the breeder's time and effort that goes into the development of shaping inbreds/closebreds to fix key traits to improve hybrid production is extremely important. And surely it is important that the preservation of those varying degrees of fixed traits from those strains remain intact for more assurance when used by a commercial beef producer.......I'm sure most of us are aware of what constitutes "certified" seed where reputation precedes any knowledge of public pedigree.

The concept of harnessing hybrid power is not a selfish goal for myself, nor is it to go back 30-40 years ago to resurrect the cattle we had when life seemed simpler....what some people refer to as the "good ole days" .. I do understand all the nostalgic reasons for wanting to maintain pedigree or bloodline records..... they are essential and the basics behind purebred breeding, especially important is the intimate knowledge of that ancestry in the development of more prepotent strains. But, I don't understand your comparison of developing strains/lines to harness hybrid power with any newly formed composite "breeds" that you have listed.as claiming to be more "perfect" breeds. I realize crossing systems aren't for everyone, but most straightbreeding is a form of haphazard outcrossing as well.

For those who are satisfied with the status quo of the traditional registered industry, that is their option, I'm not just sure what a breed represents anymore beyond nostalgia. In a group of a dozen people, I doubt two would agree on what a breed should or could actually represent. The only reason I see for the chickenization or porkifying the cattle industry is that traditional breeds as a whole are inadequate for these competitive changing times. Whether we like it or not, progress is inevitable..... not by going back but moving forward from what was learned in the past.

This is a big world with enough diversity for everyone. The concept of population genetics merely offers commercial producers another systematic option to consider in a world of free enterprise and private entrepreneurship. Breeding functional strains is like breeding breeds all over again, the choices are each our own of who we want to serve with genetic truths, the fundamental proof is in the pudding......there is no need for alot of hypebole nor grandiloquence. Many years ago I gave up trying to breed cattle to satisfy everyone. A wise old breeder once told me if you breed your cattle to satisfy yourself, there may be a few others out there that might like them too.......and there are......a few......that's all I need ..... I never have enough GOOD cows or bulls with or without papers to fill the demand at any price.......the registered world got along just fine before me and will get along better without me......the only good thing about getting old is that we gain more wisdom and wrinkles don't hurt Smile
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Mon May 02, 2011 10:04 pm

the registered world got along just fine before me and will get along better without me...... Sad

This is the first statement from Larry that I have disagreed with in a long time. AAA had one more herd of quality cows and one more honest member when Larry was still registering his cows with them. I would consider losing a valuable member a detriment, but I doubt that I would be learning/thinking as much if Larry was still a member. He wouldn't have as much time to share his knowledge and to teach. Thanks for taking the time and I am looking forward to early August in Red Lodge. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Mon May 02, 2011 11:24 pm

I take it this last post is a Larry Leonard post (hard to tell sometimes with all them being under Mikes name Neutral -- but much of it I agree to...

And if you and Mike and Dennis don't want to register your cattle-- that is your prerogative....After raising registered Quarter Horses for years- and the Horseshit of the AQHA- I felt the same... (I think Grandpa had the first horse certified as AQHA back in the 40's- I bought the first of my herd in the 60's)...
But what really bothers me is that after years of reading Mikes posts on several sites- and his praises of your 's and his cattle lines-- especially sires like Encore, Felix, and other Shoshone sires which were made out to be great sires for maternal makers- plus the other knowledge of your cattle I gained from others---and of my following of those recommendations to buy cattle with those bloodlines--- to just have Mike and Voss and others now tear them down as "no good"- and say they should be of nonregisterable quality- and the bloodline should not be continued in the AAA makes me question everything...... Question

I could care less if you, Mike, and Dennis are getting old, or tired, and don't want to put in the work to continue the registered bloodlines ( I agree their is a lot of horseshit work to do)-- but what gets me is the hypocrisy that is coming out on the site of knocking the same cattle/bloodlines that a few years ago were so highly promoted-- and that some built their herds around (which definitely has to be negative to them after their investment in your program)......

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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Mon May 02, 2011 11:37 pm

Never seen or read anything of the like Oldtimer, just the truth that they don't do all things best. My interpretation anyhow, and I'm right, the matters settled, read it again.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Tue May 03, 2011 5:40 am

Oldtimer wrote:
I take it this last post is a Larry Leonard post (hard to tell sometimes with all them being under Mikes name Neutral -- but much of it I agree to...

And if you and Mike and Dennis don't want to register your cattle-- that is your prerogative....After raising registered Quarter Horses for years- and the Horseshit of the AQHA- I felt the same... (I think Grandpa had the first horse certified as AQHA back in the 40's- I bought the first of my herd in the 60's)...
But what really bothers me is that after years of reading Mikes posts on several sites- and his praises of your 's and his cattle lines-- especially sires like Encore, Felix, and other Shoshone sires which were made out to be great sires for maternal makers- plus the other knowledge of your cattle I gained from others---and of my following of those recommendations to buy cattle with those bloodlines--- to just have Mike and Voss and others now tear them down as "no good"- and say they should be of nonregisterable quality- and the bloodline should not be continued in the AAA makes me question everything...... Question

I could care less if you, Mike, and Dennis are getting old, or tired, and don't want to put in the work to continue the registered bloodlines ( I agree their is a lot of horseshit work to do)-- but what gets me is the hypocrisy that is coming out on the site of knocking the same cattle/bloodlines that a few years ago were so highly promoted-- and that some built their herds around (which definitely has to be negative to them after their investment in your program)......

GREAT is not part of my cattle vocabulary OT, but a lot of our cattle are too good to register...maybe if we try to confuse you, instead of clarify things for you, you might stumble around and get something right on your own...
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Tue May 03, 2011 2:32 pm




Quote :
I take it this last post is a Larry Leonard post (hard to tell sometimes with all them being under Mikes name
Helpful hint, OT...cyan is a color scratch
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Tue May 03, 2011 3:11 pm

Professor Oltheimer, are your cataracts ocular or cerebral?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Tue May 03, 2011 9:46 pm

A fixed strain of cattle is a fixed strain of cattle, just as a Mercedes is a Mercedes. So at what point is a Mercedes no longer a Mercedes. Would any of us be satisfied buying a Mercedes that was represented as a Mercedes but upon closer inspection it was revealed it was made up of only half Mercedes parts? Some people who feel the need to impress their peers may take advantage of a discount price and claim they were driving a Mercedes and conviently by ommission get their peers believing.
Eventually though the impurity of the 1/2 Mercedes would be demonstrated. Is a 3/4 Mercedes a Mercedes, how about 7/8ths.

Shoshone strain are only Shoshone strain, and only Shoshone strain at 100%.

Do registration papers make cattle what they are? Do registration papers assure purity? Unfortunately because of the lack of conformity to type and or purity and or breed standards, registration papers have come to be of very dubious value as regards a gaurantee of quality, type, functionality, genetic merit or purity.

In addition to this the mainstream purebred business model is prone to marketing hyperbole and antics that create demand situations that result in hyper inflated values being assinged to seedstock.

The risk associated with such activities is that pedigrees then become a marketing tool in and of themselves independent of pragmatic productive commercial function. As percieved monetary values rise so do expectations realistic or not, and because of substantial investment, it then becomes imperative regardless of basic practical functionality that progeny be hyper marketed to to assure the hyper returns required due to the initial hyper investment.

And round and round the little mouse goes from one cherade to the next. Few benefit, the breed certainly does not.

Thus those who demonstarte personal integrity are obliged to mutiny as the best way to protect the integrity of strain and more importantly their personal integrity from the power marketing mutilators.

So realistically it is best to be separate and independent.






Last edited by Dylan Biggs on Tue May 03, 2011 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Tue May 03, 2011 10:26 pm

I have some questions and meaningless drival to add.

Who is this Leonard fellar that keeps coming up, apparrently I am missing something?

Paranoia related, this revolution and manifesto, computurization of the WWW, gave me related topics of tattos in Timbukttoo, and Why are the Jews so powerful, along with some foreign language suggestions, I presume to be Turkmenistanese, or is it Turkmenstanian.... and some other stuff that wigged me out a little.

Dylan, I give you a passing grade, but only a B plus, with 3 deductions for lack of confidence and associated disclaimers. One of the generals of the Revolution, is on the lookout, for pussyfooting and covering our backsides with self deprecating undertones, and is chunking the weak and spineless of the bridge left and right.


I failed the color test, and thought cyan was a capitat of one the Stans, in Asia, and Leonard, whoever he is, was over there infiltrating the counter revolutionest movement.

Tom D, wigged out as I am, I think I will have to stick to non-alternative's to the alternative music selections, but we are going to have to have MK down here for some testosterone enhancement therapy on the Ancient Yellow Thunder.



Bootheel



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Tue May 03, 2011 10:49 pm

[quote="Dylan Biggs]

Shoshone strain are only Shoshone strain, and only Shoshone strain at 100%.

Do registration papers make cattle what they are? Do registration papers assure purity? Unfortunately because of the lack of conformity to type and or purity and or breed standards, registration papers have come to be of very dubious value as regards a gaurantee of quality, type, functionality, genetic merit or purity.






[/quote]

So Dylan- do folks that kept breeding Shoshone cattle to Shoshone cattle for the past 10 years -- keep them Shoshone? How about 15?

Are the Shoshone bred if they are 3/4 of 7/8ths Shoshone bloodlines...

Are those same bulls that were touted so highly by Mike/Susan/Shirley/Bill/etc/etal of the names Mike has posted under-- like Shoshone Encore or Shoshone Felix---now worth nothing to the registered cattle industry-- and the story we got sold by Larry, Mike and others a big falsehood ???

I have a bull that was sired by a bull part owned by Dennis-- that when folks see him can't keep from praising his looks- and his movement and feet- and I am extremely pleased with his calves over the last few years- and am just getting daughters into production that I think will do fine--------- but I'm afraid to ever say anything good about him on this site because his ancestry is not totally pure by the Puritans definition (didn't come over on the Mayflower) and while he is all Wye on top- he has Basin Max 602C in his heritage!!
Bull and I should both be shunned forever for the blasphamey of thinking he could sire good cows, if you buy into the beliefs of the site !!!! Wink Razz Laughing

Good news- the county road crew boys worked hard with us yesterday and today- hauling in loads of big rock to fill washouts- and gravel to cover the rock-- and kept a loader handy so we could try and do something with the ruts trucks and trailers made in 25 day covered flooded roads------and us and several others got cows finally hauled to summer pasture.....


Last edited by Oldtimer on Tue May 03, 2011 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Tue May 03, 2011 11:31 pm

Bootheel wrote:
I have some questions and meaningless drival to add.

Who is this Leonard fellar that keeps coming up, apparrently I am missing something?

Paranoia related, this revolution and manifesto, computurization of the WWW, gave me related topics of tattos in Timbukttoo, and Why are the Jews so powerful, along with some foreign language suggestions, I presume to be Turkmenistanese, or is it Turkmenstanian.... and some other stuff that wigged me out a little.

Dylan, I give you a passing grade, but only a B plus, with 3 deductions for lack of confidence and associated disclaimers. One of the generals of the Revolution, is on the lookout, for pussyfooting and covering our backsides with self deprecating undertones, and is chunking the weak and spineless of the bridge left and right.


I failed the color test, and thought cyan was a capitat of one the Stans, in Asia, and Leonard, whoever he is, was over there infiltrating the counter revolutionest movement.

Tom D, wigged out as I am, I think I will have to stick to non-alternative's to the alternative music selections, but we are going to have to have MK down here for some testosterone enhancement therapy on the Ancient Yellow Thunder.



Bootheel




Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Wed May 04, 2011 12:00 am

Oldtimer wrote:
[quote="Dylan Biggs]

Shoshone strain are only Shoshone strain, and only Shoshone strain at 100%.

Do registration papers make cattle what they are? Do registration papers assure purity? Unfortunately because of the lack of conformity to type and or purity and or breed standards, registration papers have come to be of very dubious value as regards a gaurantee of quality, type, functionality, genetic merit or purity.







So Dylan- do folks that kept breeding Shoshone cattle to Shoshone cattle for the past 10 years -- keep them Shoshone? How about 15?

Are the Shoshone bred if they are 3/4 of 7/8ths Shoshone bloodlines...

Are those same bulls that were touted so highly by Mike/Shirley/etc/etal-- like Shoshone Encore or Shoshone Felix---now worth nothing to the cattle industry-- and the story we got sold by Larry, Mike and others a big falsehood ???

I have a bull that was sired by a bull part owned by Dennis-- that when folks see him can't keep from praising his looks- and his movement and feet- and I am extremely pleased with his calves over the last few years- and am just getting daughters into production that I think will do fine--------- but I'm afraid to ever say anything good about him on this site because his ancestry is not totally pure by the Puritans definition (didn't come over on the Mayflower) and he has Basin Max 602C in his heritage!!
Bull and I should both be shunned forever !!!! Wink Razz Laughing

Good news- the county road crew boys worked hard with us yesterday and today- hauling in loads of big rock to fill washouts- and gravel to cover the rock-- and kept a loader handy so we could try and do something with the ruts trucks and trailers made in 25 day covered flooded roads------and us and several others got cows finally hauled to summer pasture.....[/quote]

OT, would you buy a 7/8ths Rolex?

Once cattle are born raised and managed under someone elses management, selection preferences and environment they become a product of that program.

I don't doubt your liking of your good bull, good for you, it is your bull take ownership of it.

Tell us what he does that makes you like him.

If some one asks about his pedigree tell them.

Don't be afraid. These guys smell fear.

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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Wed May 04, 2011 12:23 am

Oldtimer, I'm flushing this cow Reg.12648388, so don't lump me into your conspiracies. Also I have some real nice Bannon progeny, a son and some real nice cows. DV, Back from 4.9 where I'm teaching a couple guys how to sing the Patty Cakes song.
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Wed May 04, 2011 4:38 am

Oldtimer wrote:
[quote="Dylan Biggs]

Shoshone strain are only Shoshone strain, and only Shoshone strain at 100%.

Do registration papers make cattle what they are? Do registration papers assure purity? Unfortunately because of the lack of conformity to type and or purity and or breed standards, registration papers have come to be of very dubious value as regards a gaurantee of quality, type, functionality, genetic merit or purity.







So Dylan- do folks that kept breeding Shoshone cattle to Shoshone cattle for the past 10 years -- keep them Shoshone? How about 15?

Are the Shoshone bred if they are 3/4 of 7/8ths Shoshone bloodlines...

Are those same bulls that were touted so highly by Mike/Susan/Shirley/Bill/etc/etal of the names Mike has posted under-- like Shoshone Encore or Shoshone Felix---now worth nothing to the registered cattle industry-- and the story we got sold by Larry, Mike and others a big falsehood ???

I have a bull that was sired by a bull part owned by Dennis-- that when folks see him can't keep from praising his looks- and his movement and feet- and I am extremely pleased with his calves over the last few years- and am just getting daughters into production that I think will do fine--------- but I'm afraid to ever say anything good about him on this site because his ancestry is not totally pure by the Puritans definition (didn't come over on the Mayflower) and while he is all Wye on top- he has Basin Max 602C in his heritage!!
Bull and I should both be shunned forever for the blasphamey of thinking he could sire good cows, if you buy into the beliefs of the site !!!! Wink Razz Laughing

Good news- the county road crew boys worked hard with us yesterday and today- hauling in loads of big rock to fill washouts- and gravel to cover the rock-- and kept a loader handy so we could try and do something with the ruts trucks and trailers made in 25 day covered flooded roads------and us and several others got cows finally hauled to summer pasture.....[/quote]

you haven`t been sold any story OT; you`ve hung around 4.9, and every other gossip site, and the rustlers so long, you are starting to put words in my mouth and others to argue against...argue is all you want to do, all you seek to do, even if you have to defend crooks and cons to do it...you`re clueless to what`s been said about registration, gene pools etc, and close breeding because you choose to be... that`s ok, just as there are no great cattle, and as a reverse of that, no terrible cattle either, you don`t have to be too well versed to breed and raise cattle...you and Foxx keep proving that...
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Wed May 04, 2011 9:12 am

I might be wrong-- I am often enough-- but I'm pretty sure Shoshone purity is of little importance in what were talking about here. Anyone who knows about Schearbrook Shoshone would show little excitement just because he's a Shoshone bull. And anyone who knows about ka sniff the wind would probably recognize his value despite his mongrelized ancestry. This is not a purity movement. If it were, papers proving purity would be required. Clearly, they are not.
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Wed May 04, 2011 10:51 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
I might be wrong-- I am often enough-- but I'm pretty sure Shoshone purity is of little importance in what were talking about here. Anyone who knows about Schearbrook Shoshone would show little excitement just because he's a Shoshone bull. And anyone who knows about ka sniff the wind would probably recognize his value despite his mongrelized ancestry. This is not a purity movement. If it were, papers proving purity would be required. Clearly, they are not.
exactly...purpose, not purity...
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Wed May 04, 2011 6:49 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer, I'm flushing this cow Reg.12648388, so don't lump me into your conspiracies. Also I have some real nice Bannon progeny, a son and some real nice cows. DV, Back from 4.9 where I'm teaching a couple guys how to sing the Patty Cakes song.

Dennis- looks like an interesting cow... So if you're flushing her I would take it she fits into your "type"-- altho she doesn't fully fit the pedigree purity chasers demands...
And I guess that is all I'm trying to get across is that each person has a "type" of cattle they are looking for/breeding for- and have the best maternal experiences with- and that not one type fits all.... And that is the direction they go with there herd...
I think my type fits much of the same as yours- except because of the more often greater extremes of our winters I look harder at more fleshing ability....Cows that can go out and graze a few months on dry grass after their calves are weaned and pack on some fat that helps get them thru the winter... One of the things I like about the daughters out of the Bannon X 602C...
I had one of those purity folks amost brown stain their panties when they heard I bought a maternal granddaughter of 602C-- but now that they've seen the bull as he's aged- and the calves he produces they've had to change much of their view...

And I agree with the years of Mikes preachings on the other sites (and his website) about simplification and moderation in all traits- which sometimes with his posts now I get confused to where he is going--A models, B models, C models? ....

So Dylan if you are right and Shoshone angus can only exist in the true pure form.... Since they will no longer be marketed as angus- Shoshone will eventually no longer exist in the angus breed....
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Wed May 04, 2011 8:00 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
Oldtimer, I'm flushing this cow Reg.12648388, so don't lump me into your conspiracies. Also I have some real nice Bannon progeny, a son and some real nice cows. DV, Back from 4.9 where I'm teaching a couple guys how to sing the Patty Cakes song.

Dennis- looks like an interesting cow... So if you're flushing her I would take it she fits into your "type"-- altho she doesn't fully fit the pedigree purity chasers demands...
And I guess that is all I'm trying to get across is that each person has a "type" of cattle they are looking for/breeding for- and have the best maternal experiences with- and that not one type fits all.... And that is the direction they go with there herd...
I think my type fits much of the same as yours- except because of the more often greater extremes of our winters I look harder at more fleshing ability....Cows that can go out and graze a few months on dry grass after their calves are weaned and pack on some fat that helps get them thru the winter... One of the things I like about the daughters out of the Bannon X 602C...
I had one of those purity folks amost brown stain their panties when they heard I bought a maternal granddaughter of 602C-- but now that they've seen the bull as he's aged- and the calves he produces they've had to change much of their view...

And I agree with the years of Mikes preachings on the other sites (and his website) about simplification and moderation in all traits- which sometimes with his posts now I get confused to where he is going--A models, B models, C models? ....

So Dylan if you are right and Shoshone angus can only exist in the true pure form.... Since they will no longer be marketed as angus- Shoshone will eventually no longer exist in the angus breed....

OT, the above is a post that gets us somewhere in this discussion...yelp, usefulness can come from many combinations of pedigree; because mating is still a coin flipping business......once the preferred type is determined, how do we make the type we prefer more often would seem to be a worthy goal of breeders... what if the coin we flipped was heads on both sides? more winners if heads is a winner, right?
Remember genes are immortal, the same genes in Shoshone cattle are in all cattle, just in different combinations, like my combinations A, B, C Smile ...the genes are never lost, just the combinations...to some degree on any and every mating, but absolutely certain on every outcross... I am encouraged and see great promise for Shoshone combinations and the Shoshone principles to be part of the Angus breed for many decades...
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PostSubject: Re: Maternal Manifesto   Wed May 04, 2011 10:17 pm

I was really starting to think I lost my mind, maybe I did, then Tom said he understood me, thanks Tom, maybe you could come follow me around for a couple of weeks, and decipher this mess of soup sandwiches. I keep having paranoid delusions, Dylan is not helping, as he edited his post, so I don't know if the Turkmenistanmeninblack, infiltrated my screen, or if the Troll slipped some decorative covering flakings into my snoose can, but either way, good job Biggs, you've gained a peg on the definitive meter. Also earning his merit badge for co-instructional qualifications for testosterone enhancement therapy classes, to be held in conjuction with Revolution Preparation Certification.

Some say we, I, waste our time with nonsense, but I don't care, and for me it is all about human nature and the workings of the mind, to achieve whatever goal it is we are after. I find it a marvelously fascinating study on human behavior and my inability to proof read, keeps me entertained. Purity, seems to be in question, and I am not an apologist, but, make no mistake I have nothing pure in any sense of the word, very few do, and if they do, does it really matter. Mean Spirit brings up my latest unpure endeavor, Mr. Sniffy, I call him, and he is working his way to knighthood and soon to be Sir Sniffy, as I heard Sam call him the other day. Sam is skeered of him though, and I don't know if it is respect or fear, but it is always Sir Sniffy......never Sir Sniffy the Great though, as that would be pure drival, and a little over the top, and with the set of swingers ol' Sam has, I don't think he will reduce himself to such peasantry just yet.

Mr. Keeney says there are no Great ones, or really bad, or terrible cattle. I would agree with the former, but the later, oh my goodness have I had some bad ones, but they were mostly by those deemed as great ones. So it is easy to become disheartened by this business, that should have been so very simple, and is becoming more so, by methodologies outlined and stacked up in the Corner.

Signed,

not Mike Keeney
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