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 What are the odds?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:44 am

larkota wrote:
CED BIRTH WEAN YEAR
+2 +1.9 43 79 DAM DOB 2-28-2001
-3 -.4 -1 +8 SIRE DOB 1-5-1969

6 son from this mating. average birth wt. 87lbs. high of 94. low of 74.

would you use these back on full and half sibs? why and why not?
Brian,
I think it is more difficult to "fix"or narrow the range of these quantatative traits like bw , ww, etc...whether to inbreed or not, depends on if the ancestry has a type or characteristics you wish to put into a more prepotent form...parent stock versus production stock...the fact that there is wide variation in the "numbers" would not discourage me from that goal of enhanced prepotency if there is merit in both parents...once again, merit can`t be handily described with numbers...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:09 am

Thanks again Hilly, lots more thinking material. I'm puzzled by this quote from LL - what does it mean?

"While the DNA of today's generations indicate a similarity in the sequence of common ancestry, I have not been able to access the homozygosity of that sequence."
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:49 am

Quote :
would you use these back on full and half sibs? why and why not?

I would if the body shape of the selected bull calf/calves said "calving ease". If they are all shaped like concrete blocks I'd wait until the females are ready to breed for the 3rd or 4th calf.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:04 pm

Quote :
So is there a difference between cattle with the same IBC scores achieved a different way? ie does breeding them the way Lents does - slow and steady, generation after generation never closer than the equivilent of half sib matings in each generation of matings produce less regression and more phenotypic similarity than somebody that does a crash course in inbreeding by mating a sire/daughter and other less related matings to achieve the same IBC?

This is of interest to me, too. I think it depends on your background and your current age. If you want a line of cattle from bull JJ because you like the program, you think that "JJ" represents what you like as a "summary animal"for the entire past breeder's efforts and you are not a spring chicken, then you'll be breeding bull JJ to his daughters to see what you get ASAP. If you are young and can find some slightly linebred cattle from a program that you want to continue, you can do the multiple generation deal. I tend to think, opinion only, that the immediate close-up matings will be more severe that the slow breeding concentration from multiple generations and a larger population. It concentrates an individual's influence rather than a program's influence. "JJ" might not be the bull, genetically, that truely represents the entiry of the past breeder's program.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:06 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
would you use these back on full and half sibs? why and why not?

I would if the body shape of the selected bull calf/calves said "calving ease". If they are all shaped like concrete blocks I'd wait until the females are ready to breed for the 3rd or 4th calf.

So does this demostrate "calving ease" or "concrete block"?
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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:42 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
would you use these back on full and half sibs? why and why not?

I would if the body shape of the selected bull calf/calves said "calving ease". If they are all shaped like concrete blocks I'd wait until the females are ready to breed for the 3rd or 4th calf.

So does this demostrate "calving ease" or "concrete block"?


Therein lies the problem with type evaluation, or numbers evaluation. I would guess Mr. Buffalo, was proportioned considerably different at birth. By the same token, what good is a extremely small framed, plus 1 BEPD bull, for calving ease. It all must come together and why evolution is a farce, all components, rely on each other.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:10 pm

Quote :
So does this demostrate "calving ease" or "concrete block"?

Here's my nickel's worth of opinion. I predict that the majority of the calves from this buffalo bull will calve unassisted! Idea I would think that this bull is average for his population and has not been selected for either extreme growth or excessive muscling. He is not heavy boned and is not the product of a fire and ice mating. If you had seen him at birth, his shape would parallel that of a LH calf. I would also recommend some patching of the corral at weaning time when you get his calves up to weigh and measure for their EPDs. Honest folks measure, according to the 4.9's of this world, unless we choose not to measure unless we want to and then we do.

Summary: calving ease
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:13 pm

Quote :
By the same token, what good is a extremely small framed, plus 1 BEPD bull, for calving ease.

He would have been worth around $4000 last week in the right place. The place was not near the Two Dot Bridge for a hint.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:05 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
So is there a difference between cattle with the same IBC scores achieved a different way? ie does breeding them the way Lents does - slow and steady, generation after generation never closer than the equivilent of half sib matings in each generation of matings produce less regression and more phenotypic similarity than somebody that does a crash course in inbreeding by mating a sire/daughter and other less related matings to achieve the same IBC?

This is of interest to me, too. I think it depends on your background and your current age. If you want a line of cattle from bull JJ because you like the program, you think that "JJ" represents what you like as a "summary animal"for the entire past breeder's efforts and you are not a spring chicken, then you'll be breeding bull JJ to his daughters to see what you get ASAP. If you are young and can find some slightly linebred cattle from a program that you want to continue, you can do the multiple generation deal. I tend to think, opinion only, that the immediate close-up matings will be more severe that the slow breeding concentration from multiple generations and a larger population. It concentrates an individual's influence rather than a program's influence. "JJ" might not be the bull, genetically, that truely represents the entiry of the past breeder's program.

I think the slow and steady way is safer because it allows for mid course corrections along the way. But for the corrections, I don't think there's any signifcance on how yu get to a certain ibc.

Of course, I don't really know.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:30 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
By the same token, what good is a extremely small framed, plus 1 BEPD bull, for calving ease.

He would have been worth around $4000 last week in the right place. The place was not near the Two Dot Bridge for a hint.
Bulls are $20,000 near the Two Dot Bridge; but they are sold out at the moment...
I keep reading about the wreck the country/economy is in...if cattlemen have $4500 to spend on bulls you can buy everyday for $2000 or less; things must be pretty good ...
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:48 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
So is there a difference between cattle with the same IBC scores achieved a different way? ie does breeding them the way Lents does - slow and steady, generation after generation never closer than the equivilent of half sib matings in each generation of matings produce less regression and more phenotypic similarity than somebody that does a crash course in inbreeding by mating a sire/daughter and other less related matings to achieve the same IBC?

This is of interest to me, too. I think it depends on your background and your current age. If you want a line of cattle from bull JJ because you like the program, you think that "JJ" represents what you like as a "summary animal"for the entire past breeder's efforts and you are not a spring chicken, then you'll be breeding bull JJ to his daughters to see what you get ASAP. If you are young and can find some slightly linebred cattle from a program that you want to continue, you can do the multiple generation deal. I tend to think, opinion only, that the immediate close-up matings will be more severe that the slow breeding concentration from multiple generations and a larger population. It concentrates an individual's influence rather than a program's influence. "JJ" might not be the bull, genetically, that truely represents the entiry of the past breeder's program.

I think the slow and steady way is safer because it allows for mid course corrections along the way. But for the corrections, I don't think there's any signifcance on how yu get to a certain ibc.

Of course, I don't really know.

Re: Slow and steady vs. sire X daughter: Heres my entry to the favorite sire X daughter mating, the previously introduced Felix of a different color, pictured at two months of age, this weekend:




Here's his momma (and paternal sister) this weekend, all of 25 months, seemingly proving that you can sometimes, at least, breed a heifer to an average bull of her breed and (1) not kill her and (2) get a pretty decent calf. (Full disclosure-- while the sire/grandsire's EPDs say he is in the 60th percentile of the Charolais breed for birthweight and calving ease-- thus average for the breed-- I think all these little babies just falling out and jumping up is starting to seem like more than a coincidence).



Nothing but hay and grass for either one since the momma was breeding age. Both momma and Felix love to have their heads scratched. I suspect Felix will be looking for a good home breeding nice polled cows about this time next year. Inquiries welcome.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:07 pm

with the name Felix, I really wouldn`t be introducing anything from outside the herd to my Chars, now, would I? Smile
very pleasing MS
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:56 pm

Thanks mike. I really like this little guy and his mom/sister. A couple weeks ago, he was in a different pasture than his mom/sister. I thought he was lost, just hanging out in the wrong place by himself. I chased him out, he bawled a little, his little mom/sis came charging over the hill to gather him up. Couple hours later, his sire/grandsire was hanging out same place he was-- right next to the yearling heifer pens. Turns out the little guy found the heifers in heat before his old man did. At about 6 weeks old. I was kinda impressed.

My Felix is going to be sprouting some antlers, so I'm not sure you need him with your white cows. But I think he'd be just dandy on some black ones.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What are the odds?   Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:02 pm

Quote :
I keep reading about the wreck the country/economy is in...if cattlemen have $4500 to spend on bulls you can buy everyday for $2000 or less; things must be pretty good ...

It might point to the fact that public education is failing! They do not teach either logic or economics as basic courses.
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