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 Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there

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SOWBOY



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PostSubject: h   Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:25 am

Ben Loyning wrote:
Bob, what percentage Wagyu were they? How much did they cost if you don't mind me asking? They are certainly another option I was thinking of just was/am not sure how easy they are to market. They sure are hard to look at they look like a guy ought to put horn wraps on them and go to ropin but I wouldn't care if they would work for this program. On an interesting note I was told by a fella that has collected some bulls for me that they have tiny testicles but are by far the best producing, highest libido bulls that he works with. Does anyone run these Wagyu crosses as yearlings and does anyone know if they gain as yearlings?

Ben Loyning
"Tiny Testicles" ? Maybe bigger isn't always better? Wondering what testicle size evolution delivers in the Aleutian closed herd? Certainly MARC disciples can defend their "one size fits all" imposed doctrine. MikeL
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:50 am

Ben, I use LH because they don't cost me anything, but once considered Jersey, and I would use Whygoo if I could get a lucrative contract like Bob H.
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:22 pm

Dylan, Use to come close w/angus home boys, Wye bulls, but close is not good enough in Hfr. School/Range Calving. As for Omaha Clint, once I got the money from the only one who wouldn't pay his bill (Con-Hustler) things went well, but he was not a hfr. bull. He had 9 owners, one was a big problem, and still crawls around w/his part-rat partner from SDak who owe certain people thousands of dollars. DV I Stir ex.
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:18 pm

Couple of questions and thoughts.......I know little of Wagyu, what would disposition be like, especially the bulls? Jerseys make a logical choice, but those things can be cantankerous, down right mean and dangerous little devils, would longhorns be any better or worse?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:01 pm

Ben the bulls we used we leased from Agri-beef they were fullbloods. They cost us 300 dollars per bull we just kept them 30 days. The calves look fairly good. They want the cattle back as calf -feds they commented that they did not work good for them as grass yearlings. We are exploring another japanese breed called Akuaushi they also appear to be easy calving and may make better grass yearlings as they were developed on forage instead of energy.
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:02 pm

LH I have are gentle, some jersey bulls are smart, mean and savvy, one guarded a favorite fishing chunk of creek when I was a kid, I still get scared thinking about that devil.
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:13 pm

BobH, I looked into Akuaushi, but was told they were patented, or a least very controled, (Hey Genetic rustlers) My neighbor who lives in the vicinity of the Two Dot bridge knows alot about Akuaushi, I'll try to nudge him a little.
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:13 am

1000 views Ben, fun Heeve Ho Haw
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:00 am

Bought my genetics from someone with a post-doctorate from "Range Calving/Heifer College"... multi-sire, range breeds his heifers to his future herdsires to range calve at two along with his cows and sells every one that doesn't bring a good calf to the weaning pen...for over 70 years. It works!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:27 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
BobH, I looked into Akuaushi, but was told they were patented, or a least very controled, (Hey Genetic rustlers) My neighbor who lives in the vicinity of the Two Dot bridge knows alot about Akuaushi, I'll try to nudge him a little.

From the Heart Brand Beef website.........

"Fifty years ago the Japan Association of Akaushi registration was created in order to collect, manage and process all Akaushi data. The Association has collected carcass performance, breeding pedigrees and economic data for every animal on the entire breed. These data have been use by master geneticists and scientists in the selection of every Akaushi dam and sire over the last half-century. At the same time, the Kumamoto Prefecture Agricultural Research Center has used these data to select prospective sire and dam lines to be utilized for further genetic improvement. Consequently, new sire and dam lines are only released for general production after they have been proven meritorious by extensive and accurate statistical analysis, using a sophisticated progeny-testing model."

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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:35 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
LH I have are gentle, some jersey bulls are smart, mean and savvy, one guarded a favorite fishing chunk of creek when I was a kid, I still get scared thinking about that devil.

We bred our commercial heifers Jersey for a couple of years, AI mostly. One thing we learned is that not all Jersey's would be accepted in to RCHC. The one bull we used, a Malcolm bred bull threw big heads, once the heads were out they fell out.

We have hand milked Jersey's for the house over the years and have raised a number of Jersey bulls, they nursed, not bottle fed. They were all very docile even as older bulls.

The LH bulls we have had through the years have all had very good dispositions, and the one bull in particular was very intelligent, as smart an animal as we have had on the place.

The few full LH cows that we have are intelligent also. Rating intelligence in cattle is a subjective exercise, so I am always curious how others evaluate the intelligence in cattle.

Dennis, you have commented more then once on the intelligence of specific cattle. What is it you observe about them that warrants the intelligent label in your opinion?

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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:28 pm

I'm not a BREEDER and ain't got much of a brain to pick, but doesn't it say something about a breed to look to another breed to breed heifers to??????

Dylan, my Beefmasters are a joy to raise, but they all reserve the ability to go ignorant at some point! Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:47 pm

RobertMac wrote:
I'm not a BREEDER and ain't got much of a brain to pick, but doesn't it say something about a breed to look to another breed to breed heifers to??????

Dylan, my Beefmasters are a joy to raise, but they all reserve the ability to go ignorant at some point! Laughing

It does say something Robert, mainly that using a breed for it's strength, to accomplish a least cost, least problem, more profit goal, rather than the illusion that "one" can do all things best.

I leased a half dozen Angus bulls to a Jersey farmer last year to breed his heifers to. They first AI 'd to Jersey, two rounds of heat, then kicked the black ones in. They apparantly thought it was more profitable to have beef calves, from later calvers, and not have to keep a bunch of mean ass bottle bulls around. Grass based operation, New Zealand immigrants, and a bit of a language barrier, even though we both supposedly speak English. I might ought to just buy back some of those half-bloods to make heifer college instructional leaders out of. But I do not have 300 to calve, so I probably just stick to using one type, and expect to have a few problems, for a while.



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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:00 pm

RobertMac wrote:
I'm not a BREEDER and ain't got much of a brain to pick, but doesn't it say something about a breed to look to another breed to breed heifers to??????

Dylan, my Beefmasters are a joy to raise, but they all reserve the ability to go ignorant at some point! Laughing

RobertMac, we do breed our Angus heifers to Angus bulls, and in my 15 years experience with range calving heifers, we have had few problems, and I have tendency to agree with you regarding looking for an alternate breed or needing to look for an alternate breed.

That being said though I also admire creative cattle breeding that produces the desired results.

For ever and still in our country Angus are still the breed of choice for heifers, there are a number of seedstock producers who focus specifically on the calving ease application.

That being said though the task of finding RCHC qualified bulls is getting harder all the time. Use to be a time when the majority of Angus were suitable, at least for supervised calving, if not for RCHC.

As long as the ignorance ability is held in reserve that is good.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:11 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:

The few full LH cows that we have are intelligent also. Rating intelligence in cattle is a subjective exercise, so I am always curious how others evaluate the intelligence in cattle.

In a totally non-academic way I observe three kinds of what I would call cattle intelligence.
#1 I would call maternal intelligence. When you are driving a bunch of pairs into the corrals and there is some milling around and bawling going on - the intelligent cow always knows exactly where her calf is, they have more awareness. I remember one day trailing pairs in to wean, 100 or so, making their way through the last gate entering the corrals when I heard one of the older bulls in the corrals moo once above the general din, straight away his mother who was walking in front of me near the back of the pack with her current calf cocked her ears forward - she knew exactly who she had just heard. This was a 20 year old cow. I particularly noticed this intelligence in these very old cows I had so does it increase with age/maturity or is it no coincidence that cows with this intelligence get to be that old?

#2 type I would call feed intelligence. The smart cow who always gets more than her share by being in the right place at the right time. They seem smarter in the grazing situation too - I've seen the cow that eats seed heads of grass at certain times of year, they never seem to be the ones to eat poisonous plants. Unfortunately they sometimes can't resist temptation and I've known more than one that died after escaping and eating a whole bag of grain so maybe they are just wannabe intelligent cows?

#3 I would call sneaky intelligence. I had one that could consistantly evade vaccinations and preg checking by spotting the opportune moment to escape through a door or past me while working cattle. My sneakiest ever was a red Angus I called "fence crawler". She came here as a dispersal cow and made a monkey out of me until we got going with electric fences. In her first summer here she evidently decided she was going to get impregnated on her schedule - must have sneaked in with a bull that was covering heifers at the time and sneaked back as soon as she was bred. First I knew about it was the following winter when it was about 35 below and I discovered her one day complete with new calf among some bales in my hayshed. Not only was she smart enough to get bred early - she was smart enough to escape from her field and into good shelter to deliver the calf.

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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:17 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:

The few full LH cows that we have are intelligent also. Rating intelligence in cattle is a subjective exercise, so I am always curious how others evaluate the intelligence in cattle.

In a totally non-academic way I observe three kinds of what I would call cattle intelligence.
#1 I would call maternal intelligence. When you are driving a bunch of pairs into the corrals and there is some milling around and bawling going on - the intelligent cow always knows exactly where her calf is, they have more awareness. I remember one day trailing pairs in to wean, 100 or so, making their way through the last gate entering the corrals when I heard one of the older bulls in the corrals moo once above the general din, straight away his mother who was walking in front of me near the back of the pack with her current calf cocked her ears forward - she knew exactly who she had just heard. This was a 20 year old cow. I particularly noticed this intelligence in these very old cows I had so does it increase with age/maturity or is it no coincidence that cows with this intelligence get to be that old?

#2 type I would call feed intelligence. The smart cow who always gets more than her share by being in the right place at the right time. They seem smarter in the grazing situation too - I've seen the cow that eats seed heads of grass at certain times of year, they never seem to be the ones to eat poisonous plants. Unfortunately they sometimes can't resist temptation and I've known more than one that died after escaping and eating a whole bag of grain so maybe they are just wannabe intelligent cows?

#3 I would call sneaky intelligence. I had one that could consistantly evade vaccinations and preg checking by spotting the opportune moment to escape through a door or past me while working cattle. My sneakiest ever was a red Angus I called "fence crawler". She came here as a dispersal cow and made a monkey out of me until we got going with electric fences. In her first summer here she evidently decided she was going to get impregnated on her schedule - must have sneaked in with a bull that was covering heifers at the time and sneaked back as soon as she was bred. First I knew about it was the following winter when it was about 35 below and I discovered her one day complete with new calf among some bales in my hayshed. Not only was she smart enough to get bred early - she was smart enough to escape from her field and into good shelter to deliver the calf.


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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:26 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Dylan Biggs wrote:

The few full LH cows that we have are intelligent also. Rating intelligence in cattle is a subjective exercise, so I am always curious how others evaluate the intelligence in cattle.

In a totally non-academic way I observe three kinds of what I would call cattle intelligence.
#1 I would call maternal intelligence. When you are driving a bunch of pairs into the corrals and there is some milling around and bawling going on - the intelligent cow always knows exactly where her calf is, they have more awareness. I remember one day trailing pairs in to wean, 100 or so, making their way through the last gate entering the corrals when I heard one of the older bulls in the corrals moo once above the general din, straight away his mother who was walking in front of me near the back of the pack with her current calf cocked her ears forward - she knew exactly who she had just heard. This was a 20 year old cow. I particularly noticed this intelligence in these very old cows I had so does it increase with age/maturity or is it no coincidence that cows with this intelligence get to be that old?

#2 type I would call feed intelligence. The smart cow who always gets more than her share by being in the right place at the right time. They seem smarter in the grazing situation too - I've seen the cow that eats seed heads of grass at certain times of year, they never seem to be the ones to eat poisonous plants. Unfortunately they sometimes can't resist temptation and I've known more than one that died after escaping and eating a whole bag of grain so maybe they are just wannabe intelligent cows?

#3 I would call sneaky intelligence. I had one that could consistantly evade vaccinations and preg checking by spotting the opportune moment to escape through a door or past me while working cattle. My sneakiest ever was a red Angus I called "fence crawler". She came here as a dispersal cow and made a monkey out of me until we got going with electric fences. In her first summer here she evidently decided she was going to get impregnated on her schedule - must have sneaked in with a bull that was covering heifers at the time and sneaked back as soon as she was bred. First I knew about it was the following winter when it was about 35 below and I discovered her one day complete with new calf among some bales in my hayshed. Not only was she smart enough to get bred early - she was smart enough to escape from her field and into good shelter to deliver the calf.

Grass Farmer, some interesting points. #2 quite often makes me wonder, especially in the winter when we supplement our stock piled native grass with 3 to 4 lbs of pellets, depending on the temp. There are always cows that follow the truck and get a bite out of each pile and quite often get the last pile to them selves for a minute or so. Compared to the cows that fight over the first pile, and even when it gets short don't move to a pile with more. The few LHs I have seem to be the smartest in this regard.

Something I wonder whether it relates to intelligence or not are those cows or bulls that are simply more alert to their surroundings and notice things going on about them way before other cattle, these also seem to be the cattle that figure out much more quickly what it is that is being asked of them when they are being handled. With breeding bulls the bulls that have the big view of whats going on around them and in our country will notice and respond to riding activity 1/2 and 3/4 of a mile away and trot right over there and investigate. These alert cattle or aware cattle are quite often very docile also, which sometimes gives me the idea that they are smart enough to discern between a legitimate threat and the mere presence of something.

Regarding #3, sounds like the cow in your example had some maternal intelligence also. With regards to maternal intelligence what the difference is between that and instinct is hard to tell. No doubt though there are cows that always know where their calves are and stay with them during a move and then there are those cows that don't seem to really care, not that they don't raise good calves. Just when it comes time to go, their calf is not the first thing on their mind. Back in 1991 we were calving on range the end of April and on the 27th we got hit with a 3 day blizzard, lost 10 calves and took the next 3 weeks to mother 30 others, these were the calves we were picking up and taking home to keep alive. At ant rate there was one old purebred Angus cow 30P that was the only cow to calve successfully on her own during the storm she had gone back over a half mile into the wind 80 kph, and found a small but thick patch of buck brush had her calf and kept it there through the storm and the calf was 100%. All the other cows had drifted south piled on a fence and dropped their calves in the snow slush mud right in the herd, had 400 cows then and what a cluster frick that was. So did that cow have more intelligence or more instinct or is it the same?
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:28 pm

I am always a bit amazed at the differences in cow intelligence. Today I had to help a dumb cow find her calf that she had delivered yesterday. She was pacing and bawling, couldn't find her calf. Took me nearly an hour to find it in some brush, the cow then looked at me like, "Oh yeah, now I remember leaving it there"

I have some really smart ones much like others have mentioned. One smart cow in particular I have a herd bull from. This cow keeps her calf with her or nearby at all times. This cow raises good calves partly because she is smart enough to get a little extra of everything and she seeks out the best grazing. She is never first when being moved into new pasture or into a new place, she hangs back a little so she can get out if there is danger or a trap. When the area is OK, she gets the best of what is offered. I decided to let her son breed her last summer. It had been well over a year since she had been anywhere close to him. When I turned him in with the herd containing his mother, she instantly went to him, and started licking him all over like she would do with a newborn calf. She would not let him enter the herd until she had "cleaned" him all up. She had a 3 month old calf with her at this time also. This cow stayed close to her son the bull all during the breeding season while also keeping her current calf close by too. It was somewhat comical to watch, it was like he had a chaprone while breeding. I didn't see him breed her, but she will have a calf soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:50 pm

Dylan, If you go with the dictionary definition of instinct then it must be different to intelligence. Behaviors are instinctive if they are performed without being based upon prior experiences. I think some of the things we are attributing to intelligence are based on prior experiences - ie the smart cow that heads for the gate because she knows from past experience it leads to a better field.

I think your experiences with sheep should probably demonstrate greater variation of intelligence than the cattle. Your example of cows feeding patterns with the pellets was very clearly demonstrated when we were feeding sheep. Feeding up to around 100 per group with pellets in troughs there were the fighters that stuck in at the first 2 or 3 overloaded troughs, the ones that followed you right along eating at every trough and finishing up at the last one but the most intelligent in my opinion were the ones that got in around trough 4 avoiding the crush of trough 1 but also avoiding wasting eating time walking like the ones that followed me along to the end.
The clearest example of intelligent sheep were the ones that lambed away in a corner, in shelter, and parked their lambs there for the first few days, leaving the lambs to walk to the feed troughs twice a day even if it was 1/4 of a mile. The dumber ones would bring the lambs to the feed, get them all mixed up with someone elses then leave with the wrong ones Mad There was a difference in the lambs too though - I sense the lambs off the intelligent mothers were more obedient and more likely to stay put when told to.
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:05 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Dylan, If you go with the dictionary definition of instinct then it must be different to intelligence. Behaviors are instinctive if they are performed without being based upon prior experiences. I think some of the things we are attributing to intelligence are based on prior experiences - ie the smart cow that heads for the gate because she knows from past experience it leads to a better field.

I think your experiences with sheep should probably demonstrate greater variation of intelligence than the cattle. Your example of cows feeding patterns with the pellets was very clearly demonstrated when we were feeding sheep. Feeding up to around 100 per group with pellets in troughs there were the fighters that stuck in at the first 2 or 3 overloaded troughs, the ones that followed you right along eating at every trough and finishing up at the last one but the most intelligent in my opinion were the ones that got in around trough 4 avoiding the crush of trough 1 but also avoiding wasting eating time walking like the ones that followed me along to the end.
The clearest example of intelligent sheep were the ones that lambed away in a corner, in shelter, and parked their lambs there for the first few days, leaving the lambs to walk to the feed troughs twice a day even if it was 1/4 of a mile. The dumber ones would bring the lambs to the feed, get them all mixed up with someone elses then leave with the wrong ones Mad There was a difference in the lambs too though - I sense the lambs off the intelligent mothers were more obedient and more likely to stay put when told to.

Yeah, we are back into sheep, so will find out if we have ant intelligent one. Smile

Good point about the ones that stop to eat after the crush, sometimes the ones that endlessly follow you swear are just stupid because like you say they spend all their time just following and not eating. Feeding on the ground though the LH's seem to get a bite out of every pile and a pile to themselves for a bit. The daughter of the one cow does the exact same thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:08 am

Might just be me but it seems like sisters hang out together alot, also heifers that were raised together seem to stick with each other for years. I have two 3/4 sisters out of different cows and those silly things have run around together since birth, but then they have a few other 3/4 sisters that you rarely see close to them. Maybe I don't get out much and make up stories, but I don't think so.

Had a cow a few weeks ago that seemed to be helping her first calf heifer with her newborn calf( kinda fun to watch)
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:49 am

It is interesting to see folks talk about intellegence in animals. The response I have is that if they are to intellegent to stay where I put them they have to go and if they are not intellegent enough to stay in good enough flesh to produce they also have to go. Natural selection
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:23 am

Bob, This outfit that you lease your Wagyu's from also contracts to buy the calves back? Does that $300 for 30 days translate to $600 for 60 etc. or are there different rates? Any idea of how they do at altitudes 7000 to 8000 ft? This deal really intrigues me. The way we are set up now I think we would keep an extra 50-75 heifers to get to the right number on a forest permit, and would breed them all to heifer school bulls. This would also give us a couple of small loads of fly-weight F1 calves. That winter following them weaning these F1 calves we could take a sort and sell the excess as three year old bred cows bred to angus bulls. It would be a paradigm shift for us but our family has had to make several paradigm shifts over the years here to adapt to the times. I guess this could be part of the reason we are still here when everbody else starved out.

Heeve Ha Ho! Life is good.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:50 am

Intelligence, instinct, or ignorance...whose value system...ours or the cow's????

Bootheel wrote:
It does say something Robert, mainly that using a breed for it's strength, to accomplish a least cost, least problem, more profit goal, rather than the illusion that "one" can do all things best.
Individuals have strengths and weaknesses...long time developed herds have strengths and weaknesses...breeds are all over the place. Being the "best at all things" is an illusion bought with money and certainly not profitable...being functional at all things is profitable. Cows should raise calves...bulls should breed cows and make meat.

Before epds, Angus was the "calving ease breed"...improvement?????????
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PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:21 am

When speaking of an animal's intelligence it has to be in comparison to other animals of that species. Every species has its own form of intelligence based in the natural instincts of that species. For example some people call sheep stupid, but their intelligence is about the survial of the species which is entirely dependent on the flocking instinct. Cows are another matter entirely and their intelligence is more individually based. And there can be quite a difference among individuals. Here we have 2 terms that we use that pertain to cattle and humans possibly. One is feedlot mentality and the other is range savvy. We've found that cattle get "dumber" when provided abundant welfare. Feedlot mentality compounded over generations diminishes the natural instinctual intelligence of the animal to survive. Cattle with feedlot mentality stand around waiting to be taken care of. Humans who build corral systems can sometimes be accused of having a feedlot mentality in terms of how they design the configurations, but I digress. The parallel in humans is welfare vs initiative. What we're talking about here is not really about native intelligence but conditioning.

The next topic is animals that aspire to be human because that is all they know. We're currently reading a book called That Quail, Robert about a small quail raised from hatching by humans that related only to humans. Years ago we had a female antelope named Roger. She utilized her intelligence to learn to chase cars like dogs and play chase with humans. Our pet magpie Starving Bird tried to mimic human speech to communicate with us. Our pet coyote, Ki, tried to accomodate domesticated dog behavior such as getting in the pickup with the dogs but grew more and more conflicted the older he got because the behavior was so outside the instinctual pattern. Our pet jack rabbit who lived in the house, Jackie Jack, utilized her speed and antics as a jack rabbit to run 90 mph around an island, hurling herself 3' over the top of sofas, jumpimg straight up in the air, landing and taking off like a rocket all to show off in front of the cats and humans. She would expend so much energy she would come sit on your chest, breathing hard, tongue hanging out like a dog. Over the years we've had many bell wethers. They were always bum lambs that bonded initially to humans instead of other sheep and some even would ride in the back of the pickup with the dogs, so their sheep instincts were almost non-existent. We have a cutting horse stallion by the name of Buster who at 19 yrs old is run in a small pasture with an old mare for company in the off season. Buster is incredibly intelligent on many levels. He is an animal that utilizes the concept of entertainment. Since we get to drive right by his pasture we observe him often. One of his favorite activities for entertainment is to pick up a 6'-12' willow stick, and poke the old mare in the butt with it provoking her ire. Often times we've seen him throw the stick clear up in the air, retrieve it and do it again. If we move cattle along the fence he gets down and cuts against the fence practising his cutting training. I could go on and on and on but I think this covers this area.

Have to go to work. At some point I'll come back to write about range savvy and other bovine intelligence issues. Food for thought would be the more in herd genetics used for propagation of range savvy cattle, the evidence of range savvy intelligence is observed. Something very mysterious happens when you close your herd to outside genetics and begin selecting animals from within, especially if your goal is to increase range savvy, independence and cattle that take care of themselves. One example is cattle here on the butte as winter approaches. They can be very hard to gather and bring down. They will head UP to where they know they can find grass and shelter when a storm approaches instead of heading down to a possible feed line.
Dennis Voss, Heeve Ho Haw tribe
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Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there
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