Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:34 pm

In planning the future of the program here I often worry about my customers cattle showing some regression as things tighten up here. I'm thinking about splitting the bunch in two and and getting my guys on a plan where every three to five years they switch between the two groups. Many of you on here know I am a HBR/Shoshone guy so I am looking for alternatives from within the angus breed and am wondering what cattle you people out there have had good luck with for consistent maternal function. They would have to be cattle that you could breed tight with decent results. No 6807 as I've got more than a guy needs already. I think that Mike already has a program like this in place there using differnt cow families from within the Shoshone gene pool. I probably will use some genetics I have here anyway but am just curious about what has worked or is working for some of you others? I am also wondering what are some of the most extreme calving ease bulls you have used. I think next year I might start a very small extreme calving ease program to make a hand full of bulls for us to use here on the ranch to range calve heifers. I know Mike is in the developement stage of his Rocket Man program and I will darn sure keep track of that. I haven't to this point got the old man talked into Longhorns yet so they have to be probably are going to have to be angus. I am thinking of this as a terminal program we will keep no replacements from these as I am very leary of extremes. Has anyone on here ever used black Salers? If so what were your experiences with them? This is big country so we could deal with some disposition issues on a hand full of bulls if we had to. Again I probably have most of the parts in place here and already have my ideas as to what I will do just doing a little brainstorming.

Ben Loyning
In the vicinity of rocks, sagebrush, cactus, and not a whole hell of alot else.
Back to top Go down
R V



Posts : 74
Join date : 2010-10-04

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:29 am

Sitz Peak Legacy 9613 (14368866) - He shortens gestation much like Forte, but he is still alive and semen is easy to find. One of the owners has bred him back to his daughters and to at least one of his daughter's daughter with no freaks. The cattle are moderate and I like them, but I don't know about longevity. The numbers indicate more performance to a year than I would expect. I have watched and waited and am going to use him this year for reasons similar to what you stated + I am going to use him back on my favorite Alliance cow and a Bonanza daughter in hopes of making a heifer bull for my own use.


Last edited by R V on Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:29 am

Not much sensible to contribute but we had a limited experiment with Red Salers once upon a time, certainly were easy calving but the disposition Shocked Shocked .... it's not handling a few bulls that's the problem it's handling every calf that is plumb crazy. Been charged a couple of times by a new, still wet, saler calf - just crazy, wild, ignorant cattle. I'd rather have the regression than the aggression Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:32 am

I know when dad used saler AI we had calving issues. It was hard to tell the dispoistion of dead calfs but the live ones were manageable. You might want to look at tulleyfergus movin on 16 owned by robert groom.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:59 am

Ben Loyning wrote:
In planning the future of the program here I often worry about my customers cattle showing some regression as things tighten up here. I'm thinking about splitting the bunch in two and and getting my guys on a plan where every three to five years they switch between the two groups. Many of you on here know I am a HBR/Shoshone guy so I am looking for alternatives from within the angus breed and am wondering what cattle you people out there have had good luck with for consistent maternal function. They would have to be cattle that you could breed tight with decent results. No 6807 as I've got more than a guy needs already. I think that Mike already has a program like this in place there using differnt cow families from within the Shoshone gene pool. I probably will use some genetics I have here anyway but am just curious about what has worked or is working for some of you others? I am also wondering what are some of the most extreme calving ease bulls you have used. I think next year I might start a very small extreme calving ease program to make a hand full of bulls for us to use here on the ranch to range calve heifers. I know Mike is in the developement stage of his Rocket Man program and I will darn sure keep track of that. I haven't to this point got the old man talked into Longhorns yet so they have to be probably are going to have to be angus. I am thinking of this as a terminal program we will keep no replacements from these as I am very leary of extremes. Has anyone on here ever used black Salers? If so what were your experiences with them? This is big country so we could deal with some disposition issues on a hand full of bulls if we had to. Again I probably have most of the parts in place here and already have my ideas as to what I will do just doing a little brainstorming.

Ben Loyning
In the vicinity of rocks, sagebrush, cactus, and not a whole hell of alot else.

Ben, I think Unwanted`s low birth weight comes from his dam...she`s in my mind for flush work this winter; so I`m kinda looking too...I hope to see a couple of your Beetseeds this summer...
In the vicinity of Lake Cumberland held in place by a leaking dam
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:15 am

not that I'm a breeder or have much of a brain to pick. I do recall growing up with Emulous bred bulls. they were a bitch to halter break and never did get one to 4H steer riding so I'll type real slow for you guys that did.
The Emulous line that I bred away knowing more then my dad ever would was one of the biggest blunders I had made. There were a few pieces that have servived. I now have a very small group of yearlings that I will start mob breeding brother to sister. The traits that I remember and didnt like were good mother, not that big, needed to be ran over as yearlings, would not eat cake out of my hand, very even could never find the best one, could out run a Chey pickup.
Plans are to try and have 2 lines here. Emulous the male side with Bob of K Pride, Dynamo, Spur Emulous Master. Early Sunset Emulous 60E, Emulation N Bar 5522. and Encore the female side with Frances, Ester, and Prudence.
From what little I know both lines were linebred and seemed to handle it well, some say even made them better. My hurdle is do I cross them or let some fool customer do it??
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:25 am

Larkota, I'm thinking that my customers should cross them and get some benefit from doing so. I certainly don't think they would be fools for doing so.
Back to top Go down
larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:45 am

Ben I concur. BUT most customers look, laugh, mumble, laugh, ask what the hell are you thinking, mumble some more, then not come back.
OR I could show them the cross and appear to be a breeder.

most customers cant figure out how I can raise 2yr old bulls cheaper then yearling. trick is to never show them the yearlings. so should we never show them the true-line?
Back to top Go down
Bob H



Posts : 371
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:46 am

Why would you not use a multiple sire group on your females out of the same lines that you like and let nature pick. Then tell your customer's to use a continental breed for out cross growth. Thus leaving the maternal line to be effiecent cows.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:01 am

RV, The calving ease deal I'm thinking will be completly terminal so no close breeding will ever occur. I will look your bull up as quick as I can.


I am not sure if I'm crazy worrying about my customers cattle regressing but I think a mini Tru-Line is the best way for me right now. I am not sure how much heterosis will come from this as the types of the two bunches would hopefully be extremely similair.

Bob H, I agree with you but all of these guys have used Continentals at one point in time and to make a long story short they damn sure won't now. None of these guys retain ownership of their calves to the rail. All of them retain their own females and I hope that this system would still work for making good cows. I think it will.


Ben Loyning,
In the vicinity of a currently white desert.
Back to top Go down
larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:09 am

Bob if I hear what your putting down is, and must admit I have been thinking of this. Use my home raised inbred bulls on my cows cut the remaining steers and sell good proven cows that are surplus. Then let them cross the cows to continental breeds. This sounds so familiar, oh yeah this is what my dad did.
Back to top Go down
Bob H



Posts : 371
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:20 am

Larkota why would we change what we know as successful. The most importatnt tool on our ranch is the factorys that have taken 12 years to rebuild.

Ben I know that people have a hard time changing their peridigms. All that we can do is tell the truth about what we know by doing the right things for the right reasons.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:26 am

Larkota, The issue I see with that system at least in this country is that the females need to be raised where they run. Much of a cows ability to hustle and forage I think is a learned behavior. Bringing in somone elses cattle I don't think that they will be able to find the corners, travel the distances needed for water, eat snow on the winter range, and know the needed "grazing migrations" for lack of better words. It would probably work in a smaller setting and in better country. I enjoy reading everyone elses philosophies on what works in their particular managment system keep it coming.

Ben Loyning
Back to top Go down
larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:02 am

Bob H wrote:
Larkota why would we change what we know as successful. The most importatnt tool on our ranch is the factorys that have taken 12 years to rebuild.

I admit I do a poor job writing what I'm thinking and reading what you mean.

Last cow brought in here came from Mike. My goal is in 20 years to have the whole herd going back to 2 cows.

What do you do with your surplus females? myself I breed them all then cull hard. selling the surplus after hard culling that do not fit my preferred type. I have graduated from bull shopping and will now be using only bulls that will tighten up my preferred type.

Since I live east of the Missiour River and no bridges for 25 miles. Our cattle dont suffer like yours do Ben. There is corn beans and wheat all around me. least cost producer around here feed 1 bucket of corn instead of 2. When I try run cattle like you do, neighbors call PETA. Not that your wrong, they just say it cant be done.

Just sold 60 middle age cows that were not of my NEW perferred type at my local auction barn. no papers no fuss for $1480 cheers most went to Kansas.
Back to top Go down
robert



Posts : 52
Join date : 2010-11-17
Age : 49
Location : oblivion, ny

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:36 am

thanks for the plug Pat, the AAA finally got around to doing the igenity stuff on him, not sure if its worth anything or not, my guess is 'not' Smile seriously doubt anyone posting here will have any interest in the bull whatsoever though, esp. as he's registered..............
Back to top Go down
PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:53 pm

robert wrote:
thanks for the plug Pat, the AAA finally got around to doing the igenity stuff on him, not sure if its worth anything or not, my guess is 'not' Smile seriously doubt anyone posting here will have any interest in the bull whatsoever though, esp. as he's registered..............

Robert

If the 4 daughters I have are a sample then the maternal side would fit right in with their breeding for looks. I will know more in 2 years if the sire imparted to much milk and other traits. I will be breeding heifers to him again this fall if I can get the facilities setup.

Back to top Go down
Oldtimer

avatar

Posts : 308
Join date : 2010-10-04
Location : Northeast Montana

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:17 pm

Easiest calving bull by far that I have used is N-Bar Prime Time D806...Calves were light BW 66 to 83- with a calving ease build and lots of vigor...Reminded me of little jackrabbits when born- but took off a grew pretty well ....
Some came as much as 17 days early with most being about a week early...
And D806 has a history for being a cowmaker... I'll see as I have his daughters calving now...
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:02 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
Easiest calving bull by far that I have used is N-Bar Prime Time D806...Calves were light BW 66 to 83- with a calving ease build and lots of vigor...Reminded me of little jackrabbits when born- but took off a grew pretty well ....
Some came as much as 17 days early with most being about a week early...
And D806 has a history for being a cowmaker... I'll see as I have his daughters calving now...

too much range; too big for Longhorn alternative; too flimsy for good cows, might fit Ben`s terminal though...66 and down is what I`m looking for, and if they can do the job, un-registering them will be no problem and have no fees..hidden or otherwise Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:49 pm

Range Calving/Hiefer College is an entirely different concept from "calving hfrs./calving ease/heifer bulls "in the reg./commercial mainstream.
Back to top Go down
Dylan Biggs



Posts : 392
Join date : 2011-03-07

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:57 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
Range Calving/Hiefer College is an entirely different concept from "calving hfrs./calving ease/heifer bulls "in the reg./commercial mainstream.

Dennis, in the past have you used Agnus bulls that met the requirements to be candidates for "Range Calving/Hiefer College"?

We have been range calving our heifers for the last 15 years and have only had 2 years where we needed to assisit a few heifers. In the mis eighties we used LH bulls on our heifers and they worked well. I still have a few straight LH's. Just like them, intelligent cattle that can produve and deal with the sub arctic winter conditions, even though they never look fat. They hide their fat inside mainly around the kidneys and in there pelvis. I have seen alot of LH's buthered that didn't look "finished", but once you evicerated them you realized they had plenty of fat , just not on their backs. But I digress, use to be a time when the majority of Agnus bulls up here could be used on heifers with good results. Things have changed though. Did you ever try the Ohmaha Clint bull on heifers?

I have a home raised bull that I bred to his paternal 1/2 sisters a couple of years ago with excellent Range calving results, last summer I used him on a bunch of our closed Mogrel commercial heifers to put his calving ease to the real test. We start mid May so will know if he is a candidate for "Range Calving/Hiefer College", or if he just a counterfiet calving ease specialist. Smile



Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:28 pm

Dennis, that is exactly what I'm after a Range Heifer College. I want them to have a good experience being first time mothers and learn to take care of and love their own calves without my help. I want somthing that will throw calves that will be as easy on their reproductive tracts as possible. The right shape and size of calf. The calves need to be vigorous in helping their first time mothers do their job. I have no doubt Longhorns are the best for this but am looking for other options.

Ben Loyning
Back to top Go down
Tom D
Admin


Posts : 535
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:40 pm

Ben, I had over a hundred registered Salers females on the books until I got sick of paying the ASA cow tax on them and delisted the whole bunch. If you want to try your hand with Salers, you're welcome to come here and take whatever you want. I've done a WHOLE LOT of sorting, and there might be a couple decent old cows left. I've pretty much given up on the project, I think the best time to be a Salers breeder was when we were in grade school. You can come have your pick of the herd, just trade me one good Larry cow for every two Salers you pick. Maybe we could even do 3 for 1. Hopefully that valuation is enough to make you reconsider your black Salers project. Neutral
Back to top Go down
Bob H



Posts : 371
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Ben we just got done calving 110 Shoshone bred heifers that were bred to Wagye bulls it appears that there was one dead heifer and as far as we can tell there is only 2 drys. The heifers seemed to enjoy the calve's they are sold back to Agribeef at 13 dollars per hundred weight over the Winnimucca Video for a 550lb calve with a 10 dollar up and down slide.
Back to top Go down
Dylan Biggs



Posts : 392
Join date : 2011-03-07

PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:07 pm

Bob H wrote:
Ben we just got done calving 110 Shoshone bred heifers that were bred to Wagye bulls it appears that there was one dead heifer and as far as we can tell there is only 2 drys. The heifers seemed to enjoy the calve's they are sold back to Agribeef at 13 dollars per hundred weight over the Winnimucca Video for a 550lb calve with a 10 dollar up and down slide.

The Padlock was breeding all their heifers Waygu, might still be, they were being given the semen as part of the agreement with the semen supplier who bought the calves.

Boy how times have changed, Agnus bulls that work on heifers being that scarce. Of course thats what happens when it is decided that Agnus can be all things. Hard to have your terminal cake and eat calving ease too.

That Basin Emulation 5653 bull seemed like a black LH in terms of bonafide calving ease.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:21 pm

Bob, what percentage Wagyu were they? How much did they cost if you don't mind me asking? They are certainly another option I was thinking of just was/am not sure how easy they are to market. They sure are hard to look at they look like a guy ought to put horn wraps on them and go to ropin but I wouldn't care if they would work for this program. On an interesting note I was told by a fella that has collected some bulls for me that they have tiny testicles but are by far the best producing, highest libido bulls that he works with. Does anyone run these Wagyu crosses as yearlings and does anyone know if they gain as yearlings?

Ben Loyning
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there   

Back to top Go down
 
Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 3Go to page : 1, 2, 3  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Brainpicking some of you BREEDER's out there
» Registered Breeder Birman Kittens
» Historical articles
» Becoming a breeder
» 2016 Keeney Angus Bull Sale

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Breeding Philosophies :: Breeding Philosophies-
Jump to: