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 + or - change in EPDs from interim

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df



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Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:40 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If you bought 10 bulls that are BW +1, WW +35, YW +75 then the average of the tens bulls once proven would be about BW +1, WW +35, and YW +75. A couple might end up be higher for growth (maybe +85 or +90 for YW) while a couple would be lower for growth (maybe +60 or +65 for YW). The others would still be pretty similar to what the started at but more than likely not exactly those same numbers (maybe 65-85 for YW). So the average is just what is predicted but each individual bull could be different than the original prediction.

I think you might be looking for perfect when what you are getting is simply a better method of determining genetic merit in other herds better than using wts or ratios.

So, EPDs are about 20% accurate within individuals of a true contempory group from your example and that is better than eyeballing and taking a chance from individual data?

Sorry, I misspoke concerning the change. The Possible Change table from AAA shows about 16 lbs change if the bull starts at .05 acc so the range is significantly smaller than I stated above. I should have checked the table before I posted. There is still a small chance some bulls would go more than 16 lbs from their first prediction but that is a small number of bulls.

So a bull that starts at +75 has a pretty high chance of being between ~+60 and ~+90 for YW EPD. I would not consider a 10 lb difference in the YW EPD of yearling bulls to be significant from the standpoint of the previous sentence. There is still lots of other traits to evaluate.

One other thing to consider is the Percentile Chart. The specific number may not be as important as knowing how the bull ranks within the breed. If you are interested in a moderate growth bull, the combination of the EPD and the Percentile Chart could help make that decision.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:43 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If you bought 10 bulls that are BW +1, WW +35, YW +75 then the average of the tens bulls once proven would be about BW +1, WW +35, and YW +75. A couple might end up be higher for growth (maybe +85 or +90 for YW) while a couple would be lower for growth (maybe +60 or +65 for YW). The others would still be pretty similar to what the started at but more than likely not exactly those same numbers (maybe 65-85 for YW). So the average is just what is predicted but each individual bull could be different than the original prediction.

I think you might be looking for perfect when what you are getting is simply a better method of determining genetic merit in other herds better than using wts or ratios.

So, EPDs are about 20% accurate within individuals of a true contempory group from your example and that is better than eyeballing and taking a chance from individual data?

And is that better than an honest breeders knowledge of his own cattle. What do you tell someone who only needs 1 or 2 heifer bulls? Good luck? Sorry that bull calved hard. He must of been the wrong one in 10. I still feel if your are right, then lets have a look at how the numbers are changing. You're right though, I still would'nt believe them because if they became important breeders would breed cattle to have the biggest move bull in the industry. The integrity of the breeder is worth more than any number be it actual wts. or EPDs.

Again, if you are looking for perfect, you will be disappointed. Calving ease is based on about 20 things, of which BW is probably the largest but still one of many factors. I don't think it is fair to place all the blame on the bull when there are 19 other things that might explain the issue. It is not to lessen the importance of sire selection, only that it is one of many.

Yes, integrity is still important.

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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:04 am

I'm not looking for perfect DF. I lookong for reliable, repeatable,sustainable. Looking for perfect is what got me in trouble to begin with.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:42 am

MK wrote:
why doesn`t high accuracy reflect width of the database? would not "higher accuracy" result from more narrow data bases?



My understanding is that a "high accuracy" simply means a bull's epds aren't likely to change. If his progeny were all over the place (wide data base) as a low accuracy bull, his progeny would still be all over the place as a high accuracy "PROVEN" bull.

Birth weight epd would rank about 19 or 20 on my list of tools to select a heifer bull. Using Longhorns would be close to the top.
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:13 am

The future, df... The future looks grim, df...
Grim for things like EPD's, academics and subjects like "to retain or purchase", "neo-natal calf research", "what feedlots want", "growing & feeding of cereal forages", "weather and scours", "new ways to dehorn", "PETA's role in feedlot guidelines" and on and on. Know what? The real future is this. Very little cattle production will occur east of the Mississippi, most cattle production will occur in the west. Gone will be the days of AI and feedlots. Know that the future will be a "Mad Max" form of survival based on new subjects such as saavy, networking based on the old handshake trust - western style, bartering and trading, alliances with our neighbors. These alliances will be based on people knowing people. No more worry about "hard bone". Grass fat? No, just fat or thin will do. Protecting cattle from gangs of hungry rustlers will be job number one. How well you can shoot and ride will be of most importance. You see, the old west is coming back, df. Storage of fuel will be huge. Most universities will no longer exist. Bull studs will be a thing of the past. Bulls, on the other hand, will still be raised. Guys like Jack & I will trade bulls to complement our herds. This will occur by my driving 50 head of bulls southeast towards Jack, and he and his cowboys and cowgirls driving 50 head northwest, meeting approximately in the middle, swapping the two herds and heading back home with our new genetics. Along the way we may only shoot and kill 20 or 30 hungry ex-academics and ex-university teachers trying to butcher one of our bulls for food. Academics don't look so good out in the middle of nowhere in loin cloths and tennis shoes. Many of them we'll just have to put down for mercy's sake. The only exceptions will be those wishing to learn the new ways of the west. New ranchers of the west will form their own armies to combat UN Custer types. We will wipe out these guys like the Indians wiped out Custer. More housing will go back to basics like earth shelters, bunkhouses will be replaced with concepts like "wolf dens". Well, by now you know that I could go on and on. If you want some help preparing, df, I think a new company called "Western Solutions; Preparing for the Future" would be the place to start. I'll be glad to be your consultant and I volunteer Bob H as a potential consultant as well. You also should tie in the Canadian boys. We've got some real heavy hitters on here. The Canadian border won't have much to do with anything except to mark where the Canadian clans have the power. There'll be 2 main groups, the Canadian clans and the Montana clans. All the rest of the clans will be subsidiary. Sure gives new meaning to "herd boss" doesn't it , df?
Dennis Voss, in the vicinity of the Two Dot bridge, King of the Heeve Ho Haw tribe
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df



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:31 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
The future, df... The future looks grim, df...
Grim for things like EPD's, academics and subjects like "to retain or purchase", "neo-natal calf research", "what feedlots want", "growing & feeding of cereal forages", "weather and scours", "new ways to dehorn", "PETA's role in feedlot guidelines" and on and on. Know what? The real future is this. Very little cattle production will occur east of the Mississippi, most cattle production will occur in the west. Gone will be the days of AI and feedlots. Know that the future will be a "Mad Max" form of survival based on new subjects such as saavy, networking based on the old handshake trust - western style, bartering and trading, alliances with our neighbors. These alliances will be based on people knowing people. No more worry about "hard bone". Grass fat? No, just fat or thin will do. Protecting cattle from gangs of hungry rustlers will be job number one. How well you can shoot and ride will be of most importance. You see, the old west is coming back, df. Storage of fuel will be huge. Most universities will no longer exist. Bull studs will be a thing of the past. Bulls, on the other hand, will still be raised. Guys like Jack & I will trade bulls to complement our herds. This will occur by my driving 50 head of bulls southeast towards Jack, and he and his cowboys and cowgirls driving 50 head northwest, meeting approximately in the middle, swapping the two herds and heading back home with our new genetics. Along the way we may only shoot and kill 20 or 30 hungry ex-academics and ex-university teachers trying to butcher one of our bulls for food. Academics don't look so good out in the middle of nowhere in loin cloths and tennis shoes. Many of them we'll just have to put down for mercy's sake. The only exceptions will be those wishing to learn the new ways of the west. New ranchers of the west will form their own armies to combat UN Custer types. We will wipe out these guys like the Indians wiped out Custer. More housing will go back to basics like earth shelters, bunkhouses will be replaced with concepts like "wolf dens". Well, by now you know that I could go on and on. If you want some help preparing, df, I think a new company called "Western Solutions; Preparing for the Future" would be the place to start. I'll be glad to be your consultant and I volunteer Bob H as a potential consultant as well. You also should tie in the Canadian boys. We've got some real heavy hitters on here. The Canadian border won't have much to do with anything except to mark where the Canadian clans have the power. There'll be 2 main groups, the Canadian clans and the Montana clans. All the rest of the clans will be subsidiary. Sure gives new meaning to "herd boss" doesn't it , df?
Dennis Voss, in the vicinity of the Two Dot bridge, King of the Heeve Ho Haw tribe

Thanks but I am pretty comfortable taking advice from my +70 year-old dad and +100 year-old grandma. If we are ever shot at we can hole up south of the Missouri on the family farm (since 1862) where my mom raised eight children and a garden, making our own molasses, butter and ice cream. We will continue to raise hogs and cattle and bring back the sheep and a couple of dairy cows (I bet we still have to old separator). We will use my dad's mules to rake hay like we did when I was in high school. We still have plenty of trees for firewood and can kill a deer or a couple of squirels. We would still butcher 8-10 hogs every Thanksgiving just like we do now. Your invited of course. We make blood sausage, cure the hams and bacon and keep some lard for frying up those fresh eggs every morning. My mom could make you some Strawberry shortcake with fresh strawberries and cream. Probably put a little meat on your bones. Very Happy Very Happy
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:40 am

Quote :
Again, if you are looking for perfect, you will be disappointed. Calving ease is based on about 20 things, of which BW is probably the largest but still one of many factors. I don't think it is fair to place all the blame on the bull when there are 19 other things that might explain the issue. It is not to lessen the importance of sire selection, only that it is one of many.

Yes, integrity is still important.

df, You are the one defending EPDs and I am not defending "looking for perfect". Try again on an implied rebutal that might fit me for real. So, now we need a calving ease index with 20 variables and I thought EPDs were to simplify my life of ease and perfection: ah-h-h, the good life before Dennis, King of the Two Dot tribe with a PHD troll and hermit living under the bridge takes all of the cows from the East by force to prove his "West only" theory. My, my, my, even the nice Longhorn riders will be rustlers, it seems. Not me, I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.

Why have an EPD for BW when it is only 5% of the problem.

Integrity is assumed with this crowd of astute folks.
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:43 am

df wrote:

Thanks but I am pretty comfortable taking advice from my +70 year-old dad and +100 year-old grandma. If we are ever shot at we can hole up south of the Missouri on the family farm (since 1862) where my mom raised eight children and a garden, making our own molasses, butter and ice cream. We will continue to raise hogs and cattle and bring back the sheep and a couple of dairy cows (I bet we still have to old separator). We will use my dad's mules to rake hay like we did when I was in high school. We still have plenty of trees for firewood and can kill a deer or a couple of squirels. We would still butcher 8-10 hogs every Thanksgiving just like we do now. Your invited of course. We make blood sausage, cure the hams and bacon and keep some lard for frying up those fresh eggs every morning. My mom could make you some Strawberry shortcake with fresh strawberries and cream. Probably put a little meat on your bones. Very Happy Very Happy

I don't know DF, I'd have to see some hard data before I would ever believe that you could possibly survive like this. Do you have any data that would support this theory? Seems kinds blue skyish to me. cheers
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df



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:00 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Again, if you are looking for perfect, you will be disappointed. Calving ease is based on about 20 things, of which BW is probably the largest but still one of many factors. I don't think it is fair to place all the blame on the bull when there are 19 other things that might explain the issue. It is not to lessen the importance of sire selection, only that it is one of many.

Yes, integrity is still important.

df, You are the one defending EPDs and I am not defending "looking for perfect". Try again on an implied rebutal that might fit me for real. So, now we need a calving ease index with 20 variables and I thought EPDs were to simplify my life of ease and perfection: ah-h-h, the good life before Dennis, King of the Two Dot tribe with a PHD troll and hermit living under the bridge takes all of the cows from the East by force to prove his "West only" theory. My, my, my, even the nice Longhorn riders will be rustlers, it seems. Not me, I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.

Why have an EPD for BW when it is only 5% of the problem.

Integrity is assumed with this crowd of astute folks.

BW is much greater than 5% of calving ease but is not the only issue.

EPDs have simplified your life.

Yes, we should be open about guessing birthweights.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:01 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
df wrote:

Thanks but I am pretty comfortable taking advice from my +70 year-old dad and +100 year-old grandma. If we are ever shot at we can hole up south of the Missouri on the family farm (since 1862) where my mom raised eight children and a garden, making our own molasses, butter and ice cream. We will continue to raise hogs and cattle and bring back the sheep and a couple of dairy cows (I bet we still have to old separator). We will use my dad's mules to rake hay like we did when I was in high school. We still have plenty of trees for firewood and can kill a deer or a couple of squirels. We would still butcher 8-10 hogs every Thanksgiving just like we do now. Your invited of course. We make blood sausage, cure the hams and bacon and keep some lard for frying up those fresh eggs every morning. My mom could make you some Strawberry shortcake with fresh strawberries and cream. Probably put a little meat on your bones. Very Happy Very Happy

I don't know DF, I'd have to see some hard data before I would ever believe that you could possibly survive like this. Do you have any data that would support this theory? Seems kinds blue skyish to me. cheers

It is blue sky. LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:26 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
The future, df... The future looks grim, df...
Grim for things like EPD's, academics and subjects like "to retain or purchase", "neo-natal calf research", "what feedlots want", "growing & feeding of cereal forages", "weather and scours", "new ways to dehorn", "PETA's role in feedlot guidelines" and on and on. Know what? The real future is this. Very little cattle production will occur east of the Mississippi, most cattle production will occur in the west. Gone will be the days of AI and feedlots. Know that the future will be a "Mad Max" form of survival based on new subjects such as saavy, networking based on the old handshake trust - western style, bartering and trading, alliances with our neighbors. These alliances will be based on people knowing people. No more worry about "hard bone". Grass fat? No, just fat or thin will do. Protecting cattle from gangs of hungry rustlers will be job number one. How well you can shoot and ride will be of most importance. You see, the old west is coming back, df. Storage of fuel will be huge. Most universities will no longer exist. Bull studs will be a thing of the past. Bulls, on the other hand, will still be raised. Guys like Jack & I will trade bulls to complement our herds. This will occur by my driving 50 head of bulls southeast towards Jack, and he and his cowboys and cowgirls driving 50 head northwest, meeting approximately in the middle, swapping the two herds and heading back home with our new genetics. Along the way we may only shoot and kill 20 or 30 hungry ex-academics and ex-university teachers trying to butcher one of our bulls for food. Academics don't look so good out in the middle of nowhere in loin cloths and tennis shoes. Many of them we'll just have to put down for mercy's sake. The only exceptions will be those wishing to learn the new ways of the west. New ranchers of the west will form their own armies to combat UN Custer types. We will wipe out these guys like the Indians wiped out Custer. More housing will go back to basics like earth shelters, bunkhouses will be replaced with concepts like "wolf dens". Well, by now you know that I could go on and on. If you want some help preparing, df, I think a new company called "Western Solutions; Preparing for the Future" would be the place to start. I'll be glad to be your consultant and I volunteer Bob H as a potential consultant as well. You also should tie in the Canadian boys. We've got some real heavy hitters on here. The Canadian border won't have much to do with anything except to mark where the Canadian clans have the power. There'll be 2 main groups, the Canadian clans and the Montana clans. All the rest of the clans will be subsidiary. Sure gives new meaning to "herd boss" doesn't it , df?
Dennis Voss, in the vicinity of the Two Dot bridge, King of the Heeve Ho Haw tribe


Whew, thank God, something I can read, understand, and not have pools of drool, running down my shirt, from slack jawed boredom, watching that ol' dead academhorse getting whooped, over and over again. When the signs are right, and you see a pack of mutts, and mess of red horses, you'll know its me. Pay no mind to the blond sqauw, with the big .50, shes with me. Doin' right ain't got no end, and when that lines drawn, I know what kind of folks I want on my side. The revolution has begun, and coming to attention at the Corner.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:49 pm

MKeeney wrote:
with more data longer than anyone since 1953?, GAR keeps an interest in every bull because they don`t know who will turn out to be "superior"...or is that just a good marketing ploy?...letting every buyer dream that someday it could be his bull and his name on the cover of the Rolling Stone...on hell, I meant Select Sires...rather synonomous though...

I don't know that GAR is doing anything that is foreign to every other breeder; sometimes they sell bulls that prove themselves to be superior and what they want to use but do not recognize them prior to their sale. And GAR does not use clean-up bulls so keeping an interest maintains ownership in bulls that want to use later. Is is a marketing ploy? Don't know. It probably makes some financial sense for them.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:56 pm

Quote :
Thanks but I am pretty comfortable taking advice from my +70 year-old dad and +100 year-old grandma. If we are ever shot at we can hole up south of the Missouri on the family farm (since 1862) where my mom raised eight children and a garden, making our own molasses, butter and ice cream. We will continue to raise hogs and cattle and bring back the sheep and a couple of dairy cows (I bet we still have to old separator). We will use my dad's mules to rake hay like we did when I was in high school. We still have plenty of trees for firewood and can kill a deer or a couple of squirels. We would still butcher 8-10 hogs every Thanksgiving just like we do now. Your invited of course. We make blood sausage, cure the hams and bacon and keep some lard for frying up those fresh eggs every morning. My mom could make you some Strawberry shortcake with fresh strawberries and cream.

df, such a strong and pure background to have fallen into the clutches of EPD addiction! Sad
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:00 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
with more data longer than anyone since 1953?, GAR keeps an interest in every bull because they don`t know who will turn out to be "superior"...or is that just a good marketing ploy?...letting every buyer dream that someday it could be his bull and his name on the cover of the Rolling Stone...on hell, I meant Select Sires...rather synonomous though...

I don't know that GAR is doing anything that is foreign to every other breeder; sometimes they sell bulls that prove themselves to be superior and what they want to use but do not recognize them prior to their sale. And GAR does not use clean-up bulls so keeping an interest maintains ownership in bulls that want to use later. Is is a marketing ploy? Don't know. It probably makes some financial sense for them.
they recognized Integrity and had the data to prove...where did he disappear to?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:20 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
with more data longer than anyone since 1953?, GAR keeps an interest in every bull because they don`t know who will turn out to be "superior"...or is that just a good marketing ploy?...letting every buyer dream that someday it could be his bull and his name on the cover of the Rolling Stone...on hell, I meant Select Sires...rather synonomous though...

I don't know that GAR is doing anything that is foreign to every other breeder; sometimes they sell bulls that prove themselves to be superior and what they want to use but do not recognize them prior to their sale. And GAR does not use clean-up bulls so keeping an interest maintains ownership in bulls that want to use later. Is is a marketing ploy? Don't know. It probably makes some financial sense for them.
they recognized Integrity and had the data to prove...where did he disappear to?

Tired of beating the dead horse?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:22 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Thanks but I am pretty comfortable taking advice from my +70 year-old dad and +100 year-old grandma. If we are ever shot at we can hole up south of the Missouri on the family farm (since 1862) where my mom raised eight children and a garden, making our own molasses, butter and ice cream. We will continue to raise hogs and cattle and bring back the sheep and a couple of dairy cows (I bet we still have to old separator). We will use my dad's mules to rake hay like we did when I was in high school. We still have plenty of trees for firewood and can kill a deer or a couple of squirels. We would still butcher 8-10 hogs every Thanksgiving just like we do now. Your invited of course. We make blood sausage, cure the hams and bacon and keep some lard for frying up those fresh eggs every morning. My mom could make you some Strawberry shortcake with fresh strawberries and cream.

df, such a strong and pure background to have fallen into the clutches of EPD addiction! Sad

Its just a tool; it's a hammer when a hammer is needed. I put down my rock and like this new tool.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:42 pm

let`s cut to the chase...epd direction gives a pretty good idea of what breeders are chasing, some idea of where the herd is, and if I want a bull from "the program" for my intended purposes....so far, so good...but then to think I`m going to find "the one best bull" by using epds, or anythng else, including climbing the pyramids with the con collaboraters, is quite naive...
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:04 pm

It is so interesting when we quit trying chase numbers and started to breed a type we have excelled at creating females, at the same time we ended up comparing those off spring to 45 thousand other cattle from the number's world and were well within the top 10% of this group for dollars returned with less input by allot. If you force people to change their opinion they shall still be of their opinion. Quote from Stewart Minnegar
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:06 pm

MKeeney wrote:
let`s cut to the chase...epd direction gives a pretty good idea of what breeders are chasing.

I think that pretty much sums up my thoughts on EPD's. You start looking at a program where all YWs are over 100 and over 50 $B, I think you can kinda guess what they're selecting for. I think feeder calf buyers (if they could get the sire data) would feel the same way (weather it's right or wrong).
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:06 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
The future, df... The future looks grim, df...
Grim for things like EPD's, academics and subjects like "to retain or purchase", "neo-natal calf research", "what feedlots want", "growing & feeding of cereal forages", "weather and scours", "new ways to dehorn", "PETA's role in feedlot guidelines" and on and on. Know what? The real future is this. Very little cattle production will occur east of the Mississippi, most cattle production will occur in the west. Gone will be the days of AI and feedlots. Know that the future will be a "Mad Max" form of survival based on new subjects such as saavy, networking based on the old handshake trust - western style, bartering and trading, alliances with our neighbors. These alliances will be based on people knowing people. No more worry about "hard bone". Grass fat? No, just fat or thin will do. Protecting cattle from gangs of hungry rustlers will be job number one. How well you can shoot and ride will be of most importance. You see, the old west is coming back, df. Storage of fuel will be huge. Most universities will no longer exist. Bull studs will be a thing of the past. Bulls, on the other hand, will still be raised. Guys like Jack & I will trade bulls to complement our herds. This will occur by my driving 50 head of bulls southeast towards Jack, and he and his cowboys and cowgirls driving 50 head northwest, meeting approximately in the middle, swapping the two herds and heading back home with our new genetics. Along the way we may only shoot and kill 20 or 30 hungry ex-academics and ex-university teachers trying to butcher one of our bulls for food. Academics don't look so good out in the middle of nowhere in loin cloths and tennis shoes. Many of them we'll just have to put down for mercy's sake. The only exceptions will be those wishing to learn the new ways of the west. New ranchers of the west will form their own armies to combat UN Custer types. We will wipe out these guys like the Indians wiped out Custer. More housing will go back to basics like earth shelters, bunkhouses will be replaced with concepts like "wolf dens". Well, by now you know that I could go on and on. If you want some help preparing, df, I think a new company called "Western Solutions; Preparing for the Future" would be the place to start. I'll be glad to be your consultant and I volunteer Bob H as a potential consultant as well. You also should tie in the Canadian boys. We've got some real heavy hitters on here. The Canadian border won't have much to do with anything except to mark where the Canadian clans have the power. There'll be 2 main groups, the Canadian clans and the Montana clans. All the rest of the clans will be subsidiary. Sure gives new meaning to "herd boss" doesn't it , df?
Dennis Voss, in the vicinity of the Two Dot bridge, King of the Heeve Ho Haw tribe
some extension insights to help you and Jack move ya bulls if you don`t trail them Dennis...

Transporting Cattle - Steve Boyles, OSU Beef Extension Specialist

Hauling cattle is an integral part of most operations. Whether cattle are hauled to the local livestock market or to a different pasture, ensuring that proper transportation practices are used can prevent injury to the cattle. Reducing cattle stress and injury can lead to more profitable operations.

Maintenance of Stock Trailer
* Trailers are repaired and kept in good condition.
* Tires have proper pressure and adequate tread.
* Wheels are greased according to manufacturer recommendations.
* A jack capable of lifting a loaded trailer, block and a spare tire kept with trailer
* Wiring and lights functioning
* Brakes are working
* Trailer floor in good repair (Wood floor lasts about 10 years. Will be less if don't clean out after use)
* Clean trailer after every use. (Reduces slipping by animals, also a biosecurity measure)
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:15 pm

wow some deep thinking going on in Ohio
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:25 pm

Dennis Voss we feel that we will be safe for a while we have a 60 mile buffer in both directions but hadn't thought about our wolf dens but will start to work on them in the a.m. Thanks for the heads up.
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:14 pm

I have been cynical on EPD's for a while. There are some that seem like they tend to report more accurate than others. I am no math whiz but wonder how really these stats can be accurate enough to serve a purpose for breeders. I have yet to find a herd that has been built upon EPD's that have an awesome set of cows. I have noticed in my smaller herd that when I calve early the calves that are born in January tend to be light bwt when they are born. I manage the cattle the same. When they are within 10 days of calving I would bring them up in front of the barn to calve and then they would go back out in a field. So it's not like the later calving ones have had to stand in the corral for 6 weeks not getting excercise. The only thing that I can think that would alter the bwts would be the fact that they later calving cows would have endured more cold which has increased blood flow through the uterus while the earlier calving cows would not have endured the exact same weather. Our EPD guru for the CAA said that I should put them in different cont groups which I agreed that could be right in theory but reality is that haven't been managed different and a what point do I start a new cont group. She couldn't answer the question. Can anyone shed some light for me.
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PostSubject: Re: + or - change in EPDs from interim   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:36 pm

dunc wrote:
I have been cynical on EPD's for a while. There are some that seem like they tend to report more accurate than others. I am no math whiz but wonder how really these stats can be accurate enough to serve a purpose for breeders. I have yet to find a herd that has been built upon EPD's that have an awesome set of cows. I have noticed in my smaller herd that when I calve early the calves that are born in January tend to be light bwt when they are born. I manage the cattle the same. When they are within 10 days of calving I would bring them up in front of the barn to calve and then they would go back out in a field. So it's not like the later calving ones have had to stand in the corral for 6 weeks not getting excercise. The only thing that I can think that would alter the bwts would be the fact that they later calving cows would have endured more cold which has increased blood flow through the uterus while the earlier calving cows would not have endured the exact same weather. Our EPD guru for the CAA said that I should put them in different cont groups which I agreed that could be right in theory but reality is that haven't been managed different and a what point do I start a new cont group. She couldn't answer the question. Can anyone shed some light for me.

just seems breeders get what they breed for...epds are the most accurate measurement there is for what they measure...they don`t measure or define what a good cows is...
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