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 a New Flush Cow

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EddieM



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:55 am

Quote :
Culling the opens don't make the rest maternal. Even the most terminal breeders sell the open ones.

OK, I'll bite. Tell me what makes a herd be a herd known for maternal traits. Give me some good college hog judging information.

Quote :
I know it bothers many on this site that many modern Angus don't work for you but are commonly used in other (prominant) Angus herds.


It doesn't "bother" me. I don't have their feed bill or thier rate of culling.

Quote :
So now you have a chance to prove that your maternal cattle are more profitable compared to modern Angus. Will you through data or rely on anecdotal information to make the most informed choices?

Why do I need to prove anything to you? If EPDs are so much better than phenotype, type and lines, why does the AAA allow pictures of registered, mainstream breeder animals in the AJ, sale catalogs and AI sale books? Isn't that defeating the purpose of promoting EPDs? I believe that the "modern Angus" (as compared to what, ... the lost Aberdeen? Question ) is a wonderful terminal animal.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:24 pm

Quote :
LOL. I guess what I meant to say was Continental maternal breeds because Gateway Simmental and Fink Beef Genetics (Charolais) have been selecting for maternal traits more than the average Continental breeders and have the data to prove it.
I`ve long known the Fink feeding program..but I`m getting damn tired of getting the run around on seeing this "data proof"...it`s data time or shut up time...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:36 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
LOL. I guess what I meant to say was Continental maternal breeds because Gateway Simmental and Fink Beef Genetics (Charolais) have been selecting for maternal traits more than the average Continental breeders and have the data to prove it.
I`ve long known the Fink feeding program..but I`m getting damn tired of getting the run around on seeing this "data proof"...it`s data time or shut up time...

I am tired of it as well. Where is your data that allows you to say your cattle are maternal?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:24 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
LOL. I guess what I meant to say was Continental maternal breeds because Gateway Simmental and Fink Beef Genetics (Charolais) have been selecting for maternal traits more than the average Continental breeders and have the data to prove it.
I`ve long known the Fink feeding program..but I`m getting damn tired of getting the run around on seeing this "data proof"...it`s data time or shut up time...

I am tired of it as well. Where is your data that allows you to say your cattle are maternal?
I never claimed to have any data to prove anything; but you claim Fink and the Simm outfit does...so let`s see it...
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 pm

df wrote:
Culling the opens don't make the rest maternal. Even the most terminal breeders sell the open ones.

I know it bothers many on this site that many modern Angus don't work for you but are commonly used in other (prominant) Angus herds. So now you have a chance to prove that your maternal cattle are more profitable compared to modern Angus. Will you through data or rely on anecdotal information to make the most informed choices?

I do enjoy your side of this DF. We'll probably never fully agree but I like the effort you make to not get pissy or take it personal.

I agree culling opens does not make the rest maternal but it will help maintain a level of fertility and that is maternal. Selling the drys will in my mind help make them maternal. A dry to me is any thing that was bred but didn't raise a calf for what ever reason. There are alot of reasons for a dry and not all of them are the cows fault but most of them are. Problems like poor mothering ability, cavling in the wrong spot on the wrong day, big tits on a cold day, poor structure and takes to long to calve, doesn't keep track of her calf and the coyotes get it, etc. All of these things I consider maternal and if a cow can't bring in a calf she is not maternal especially compared to the cows that did bring in a calf.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:33 pm

Gregory Walker wrote:
Jack: May the wind always be at your back and the road rise to meet you...

Thanks Greg and may the sun shine warm upon your face, the rains fall soft upon your fields and may you be five minutes in heaven before the devil knows your dead.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:59 pm

just because a scientist can`t produce a research paper based on anecdotal experience, doesn`t mean you can`t learn something from anecdotal experiences...
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:24 pm

There was a great qoute from a famous coach ( I can't remember who) who said "stats just make me think of the man who drown in a river thats average depth was only three feet".
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:21 pm

We really have nothing to prove to anyone. We do all our own banking and pay all of our own debts, try not to get any government assistance (though in 1992 did receive some drought money for feed and have never felt good about it). With that said we can only respond with our life experiences. It is very interesting to read the comments, I have had allot of the paradigms in my mind thru my life that are expressed on this site. I claim to know less today than I did 35 years ago. What I do know is that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition on insanity. So for now we will do the same thing and expect the same results until we need to shift that paradigm.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:12 pm

I dabbled in numbers cattle for a while, nothing quite like a guys best numbered cow having her AI high numbered calf all on her own, then getting up, looking at it and leaving it to go eat at the feed bunk, so you haul the wet calf into the barn, get on your horse, bring the cow into the barn and she walks over to the calf, walks right by it and trys to jump over the gate, but just breaks it down instead, ok you go back out and bring her back in, put her in a head stall(tits very large, needed to be milked out anyway) She kicks and bangs the hell out of everything including one of your hands, oh well its just calving the carcass wonder time of the year, you get old carcass wonder on the bottle, shoot old mommie with some ace, put" jr. more corn" in with her and leave to calve another big numbered AAA special rip, after all you only have 799 head to go.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:03 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
I dabbled in numbers cattle for a while, nothing quite like a guys best numbered cow having her AI high numbered calf all on her own, then getting up, looking at it and leaving it to go eat at the feed bunk, so you haul the wet calf into the barn, get on your horse, bring the cow into the barn and she walks over to the calf, walks right by it and trys to jump over the gate, but just breaks it down instead, ok you go back out and bring her back in, put her in a head stall(tits very large, needed to be milked out anyway) She kicks and bangs the hell out of everything including one of your hands, oh well its just calving the carcass wonder time of the year, you get old carcass wonder on the bottle, shoot old mommie with some ace, put" jr. more corn" in with her and leave to calve another big numbered AAA special rip, after all you only have 799 head to go.

You are so right-on Dennis. The numbers people do not allow for common sense. Just like the academics in Fish & Game and wolf management do not ask ranchers for information that would help balance their academic, numerically founded research. Common sense has been kicked out of this country. You poor soul, df, you poor soul. What old Dennis, who dabbled in numbers is trying to tell you, is that he had 799 head of these big numbered rips left to calve. Imagine the Ace, imagine the broken hands, on top of this the cattle had low resistance to disease such as pneumonia and scours. "Maternal" is not a numerically based concept. It is about cattle that can take care of themselves and their calves, who do the right things to make life easier for themselves and their owners. It is a concept based on observations of behavior not some number in a formula. This whole group of people who are breaking away from the numbers are not a bunch of hee-haw yokels, Mr. Academic. When Bob H says we really have nothing to prove, we do all our own banking and pay all of our own debts, he's saying his system works and it works damn well. He's expressing common sense. For you I suppose, df, and many like you, numbers mean security, a roof over your head, a roof over your brain, a roof over your whole treasured numerically oriented life. It won't be long then will it, that we need to start EPD's for human beings. Oh what a jar of worms that would be. What we're starting to hit on here, df, is the security factor of numbers. If a trait can be numerically measured it gives a sense of security to those breeders who cannot otherwise figure out what they do or do not have in their cattle. And this needs to be explored as part of the essence of your thesis. My assignment to you df and other numbers afficianados, is take 15 minutes and think about how common sense governs your life, just 15 minutes.
Dennis Voss, wearing a t-shirt with SSS across the front, wolf management specialist in the vicinity of the Two Dot bridge
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:11 pm

Dear Samurai Denny, at first glance your Shoot Shovel and Shutup wolf control method Sure Seems Savvy.
But just as Acadennis does not understand that Stability Supplies Serenity, I fear you do not understand the wolves. Big Brother flies the skies tracking his wolves, and if a wolf doesn't move for 24 hours, a mortality signal goes out. As long as all of his wolves are moving, Big Brother is happy, regardless of which direction they are going. So be sure to keep the wolves moving, even if it is just a carcass strapped to a log, or a little pine coffin boat floating down the river underneath your bridge. Now, I must admit that I don't quite understand your bridge concept. Is this bridge the only way out of Nosavvyland, or is it where you choose to make your stand with your Sharpened Samurai Sword?
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:59 pm

Sailing down the river in a little pine box, its my ocean, its all I've got, Tom B
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:12 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
I dabbled in numbers cattle for a while, nothing quite like a guys best numbered cow having her AI high numbered calf all on her own, then getting up, looking at it and leaving it to go eat at the feed bunk, so you haul the wet calf into the barn, get on your horse, bring the cow into the barn and she walks over to the calf, walks right by it and trys to jump over the gate, but just breaks it down instead, ok you go back out and bring her back in, put her in a head stall(tits very large, needed to be milked out anyway) She kicks and bangs the hell out of everything including one of your hands, oh well its just calving the carcass wonder time of the year, you get old carcass wonder on the bottle, shoot old mommie with some ace, put" jr. more corn" in with her and leave to calve another big numbered AAA special rip, after all you only have 799 head to go.

You are so right-on Dennis. The numbers people do not allow for common sense. Just like the academics in Fish & Game and wolf management do not ask ranchers for information that would help balance their academic, numerically founded research. Common sense has been kicked out of this country. You poor soul, df, you poor soul. What old Dennis, who dabbled in numbers is trying to tell you, is that he had 799 head of these big numbered rips left to calve. Imagine the Ace, imagine the broken hands, on top of this the cattle had low resistance to disease such as pneumonia and scours. "Maternal" is not a numerically based concept. It is about cattle that can take care of themselves and their calves, who do the right things to make life easier for themselves and their owners. It is a concept based on observations of behavior not some number in a formula. This whole group of people who are breaking away from the numbers are not a bunch of hee-haw yokels, Mr. Academic. When Bob H says we really have nothing to prove, we do all our own banking and pay all of our own debts, he's saying his system works and it works damn well. He's expressing common sense. For you I suppose, df, and many like you, numbers mean security, a roof over your head, a roof over your brain, a roof over your whole treasured numerically oriented life. It won't be long then will it, that we need to start EPD's for human beings. Oh what a jar of worms that would be. What we're starting to hit on here, df, is the security factor of numbers. If a trait can be numerically measured it gives a sense of security to those breeders who cannot otherwise figure out what they do or do not have in their cattle. And this needs to be explored as part of the essence of your thesis. My assignment to you df and other numbers afficianados, is take 15 minutes and think about how common sense governs your life, just 15 minutes.
Dennis Voss, wearing a t-shirt with SSS across the front, wolf management specialist in the vicinity of the Two Dot bridge

The EPDs and indexes are used in selection of parents outside of your herd, primarily. It is not really about what you already have, it is about where you want to go.

There is certainly a sense of security. What can you tell me that will increase my confidence that your bull will meet my expectations?
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:59 pm

Quote :
What can you tell me that will increase my confidence that your bull will meet my expectations?

Are you discussing the typical sale bull that is less than 2 years old and unproven or are you buying semen on an older proven bull that has been proven in your environment? The younger bulls with low accuracy EPDs do not increase my confidence and a mature bull that has not been proven in my environment is also a gamble.
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df



Posts : 613
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:48 pm

I want to buy a yearling bull. Why should I buy from a person who collects no data compared to the alternative?
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:21 pm

Because you set your laptop down, took a ride( yes, by horse) guided by the "Hee Haww no nothing rancher/breeder" where upon
you saw with your own eyes, cows doing what cows should do, with all the equipment necessary to do it, after which you said I want
THAT
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:37 pm

df wrote:
I want to buy a yearling bull. Why should I buy from a person who collects no data compared to the alternative?

Because you set your laptop down, took a ride (yes, by horse), guided by the "hee-haw know-nothing rancher/breeder", whereupon you saw with your own eyes cows doing
what cows are supposed to with all the equipment necessary to do it. Never in your life have you seen cows as consistent in type, nor better equipped for motherhood. You
ask "hee-haw know-nothing breeder" all your questions pertaining to the goodness of these cows. At the end of the day, your mind is convinced that you have indeed seen a
no-nonsense, work-and-wear herd of cows. Scratching your academic ass and the top of your academic head, you ask "hee-haw know-nothing rancher/breeder" if he would sell
you a yearling bull that would help you make cows like these also, since you had to have had quite a bit of discontent with your current cows to want to investigate what you'd
heard about "hee-haw know-nothing rancher/breeder's" cows. This would be a start, and if I recall Bob H has already given you an invitation.
Dennis Voss, currently looking out at an ocean of absolutely incredible cows and nobody else gets to see them because I no longer sell bulls.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:53 pm

df wrote:
I want to buy a yearling bull. Why should I buy from a person who collects no data compared to the alternative?

every breeder collects data...just not the same data; recorded in the same places...there have been more buyers conned with data than without data...

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df



Posts : 613
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:44 pm

LOL. That's probably what LL should have told MKeeney the first time Very Happy

And when I am disappointed, what will you say? I can't have another bull until I set my laptop down, ride a Longhorn through the cows and kill a chicken Wink
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:51 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
I want to buy a yearling bull. Why should I buy from a person who collects no data compared to the alternative?

every breeder collects data...just not the same data; recorded in the same places...there have been more buyers conned with data than without data...


Remember the days of nurse cows, creep feed, deep straw, fat, hair, "birthdate adjustments" etc. There have been plenty of cons prior to EPDs. The same marketing and many of the same tatics are still with us today (perfect in every way, does it all, and everybody's favorite "cool"). I beg to differ if you think it just got worse once people collected data.

I would contend we have more serious commercial cattlemen trying to fit hit market specs demanded by the packers more today than any other time in the US beef industry. They are more focused for sure than the 70s and 80s with the mongrolization of the nation's cowherd.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:53 pm

OK, I'll drop in when I get to MT. But you have to promise to not call yourself the "hee haw no nothing rancher/breeder". I would have tears in my eyes and have trouble focusing on the cows Very Happy
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:28 pm

df,
I have said before and still mean it...the Angus breed is in the most useful shape currently of my lifetime...somewhat relative to how just how bad it has been before now...was/is data the driving force that brought us to this point ?
now you mentioned Simmental cows were smaller mature size now than Angus...you failed to mention; so are yearling Simmentals smaller than Angus...
Is the Gardiner selection pressure on yearling height meaningful for what I suppose is for less cow size; when the rest of the selection is terminal?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:18 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df,
I have said before and still mean it...the Angus breed is in the most useful shape currently of my lifetime...somewhat relative to how just how bad it has been before now...was/is data the driving force that brought us to this point ?
now you mentioned Simmental cows were smaller mature size now than Angus...you failed to mention; so are yearling Simmentals smaller than Angus...
Is the Gardiner selection pressure on yearling height meaningful for what I suppose is for less cow size; when the rest of the selection is terminal?

I think that is true. Is there more linebreeding today or focus on the market? What do you think caused this to happen? Personally I think it is a combination of having historical reference, more information, a focus on a specific market, etc. Yes, I think the data had a lot to do with with the positive changes (and some negative changes).

I was discussing maternal production, finding it interesting that the "maternal" breed is now the largest of all breeds. I think the yearling Angus are probably bigger than most Simmental. I don't see that as a positive for my purposes but I am not driving the ship.

Can GAR select for a more moderate size while also selecting for more growth? Of course, the correlation is not 1 so there is room for selection. Are the cows still terminal? Depends, as long as it is defined. They have certainly selected for growth and carcass value which is largely terminal traits. It does not mean that some of their sires are "maternal" but probably more "paternal".
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:36 pm

Mean Spirit wrote:
While y'all seem to be seeing some sort of differences between the keeney cow and the big $b cow, my immediate responses to both pictures were almost identical:

Response to keeney cow: "that's a cow."

Response to big $b cow: "that's a cow?"

Not much difference really.

"That Cow has the #1 Beef Value" OR "That Cow's #1 Value is for Beef" ???

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