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 a New Flush Cow

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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:46 pm

Not exactly If you breed Shoshone truline cattle to a good maternal linebred herford line you would have an f1 cross that would be good to breed a charolais for a terminal cross. What we found is that if we go any farther than that is we had too many genetic varitions in the f2s to be able to live with and why would we.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:53 pm

Jack
I think that when you cross within the breed with like kind that I still would not be very interested until you had bred them back to themselves enough time's to be sure where they would end up. That sounds like at least 9 years and probably longer.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:16 pm

Bob H wrote:
Not exactly If you breed Shoshone truline cattle to a good maternal linebred herford line you would have an f1 cross that would be good to breed a charolais for a terminal cross. What we found is that if we go any farther than that is we had too many genetic varitions in the f2s to be able to live with and why would we.

So you are talking about a three-breed rotation of AN x HH x CH?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:07 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
I'll go back to the two sheets of paper. Maternally complemtary would be crossing two maternal lines to cover up the holes in one or both lines. For example crossing EXT's with Shoshone. Both maternal lines in my opinion but each one does something better than the other. I would cross those lines to cover the holes and becaues sooner or later you have to cross them with something to avoid to much inbreeding. It's more of a tweaking than trying to change any trait in a large step but complementary to me would be gaining more from the cross than what you could give up.
Are you interested in crossing two maternal breeds, such as AN and HH, to produce a crossbred cow? Or are you suggesting the cross should be of two maternal lines within one breed?

correction...AN X HH....British terminal breeds...name me two Angus breeders have made selection for maternal their priority?

LOL. I guess what I meant to say was Continental maternal breeds because Gateway Simmental and Fink Beef Genetics (Charolais) have been selecting for maternal traits more than the average Continental breeders and have the data to prove it.

I guess then I would need to know how you make maternal a priority. What makes you think that any cow/herd/breed is maternal?
finally, at last, the data that tells me what the best maternal cow does Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation lay it on me...the last thing i read from fink was "we have used proven AI bulls for 5 generations to build consistency...which is nothing more than more registered bs
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:27 pm

And your data Question Question Question
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:42 pm

df wrote:
And your data Question Question Question
I don`t have any data, I`m waiting to see the real results of data so I can get on the academic road to a profitable cowherd...I best re-visit Fink`S websites and see the data you spoke of..
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:15 pm

df wrote:
And your data Question Question Question

from the fink website

NO seedstock supplier in the U.S. uses more proven genetics in both Angus and Charolais with the degree of accuracies than F.B.G. utilizes.
Why? F.B.G. doesn’t want any surprises or EPDs, fertility or convenience traits for you or us!

what /where is the Angus or Charolais fertility data Fink is using df?
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:25 pm

df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
I'll go back to the two sheets of paper. Maternally complemtary would be crossing two maternal lines to cover up the holes in one or both lines. For example crossing EXT's with Shoshone. Both maternal lines in my opinion but each one does something better than the other. I would cross those lines to cover the holes and becaues sooner or later you have to cross them with something to avoid to much inbreeding. It's more of a tweaking than trying to change any trait in a large step but complementary to me would be gaining more from the cross than what you could give up.
Are you interested in crossing two maternal breeds, such as AN and HH, to produce a crossbred cow? Or are you suggesting the cross should be of two maternal lines within one breed?

That would depend on what your objectives are. If I were selling everthing by the pound and keeping just enough heifers for my own use then I would have no problem using another maternal breed such as some HH. I could live with the F1 cow and sell hybred vigor on the rest of them. Now I can already hear it, those F1 cross heifers will out sell a straight black heifer! Not here they won't. I sat at the sale yesterday and watched a special replacement heifer sale and they cut the baldie hfrs away from the black heifers and they sold 25-50 bucks back. I'd have no problem using them for my own cows though after I sorted them hard for eyes and white teats. What I would rather do though would be more what I think BobH is describing and that would be breed two different bunches. One for my replacements and a terminal group. If I did this i would probably keep my cows straight black.

If my objective was to sell replacements female though as well as keeping heifers for my own use, I would only cross lines in the angus breed. They just sell better here. The steers I could live with and the heifers I would hope would out sell my steers.
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jhudson



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:28 pm

How do you measure such maternal traits as mothering ability, maternal reliability, adaptation to environment,etc. Anytime a breeder claims he is building maternal herd on years of AI a red flag should automatically go up. I remember when AAR New Trend was advertised as great maternal bull. Jim
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:41 pm

Bob H wrote:
Jack
I think that when you cross within the breed with like kind that I still would not be very interested until you had bred them back to themselves enough time's to be sure where they would end up. That sounds like at least 9 years and probably longer.

I personlly don't think if I cross like kind it will change much other than stop inbred regression. Can I ask you how much inbred regression are you willing to live with before you outcross? I understand it may not be an issue in your tenure but lets say your daughter follows in your foot steps and continues the same program you are, how much inbred regression would you recommend she lives with before she outcrosses?
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:00 pm

jhudson wrote:
How do you measure such maternal traits as mothering ability, maternal reliability, adaptation to environment,etc. Anytime a breeder claims he is building maternal herd on years of AI a red flag should automatically go up. I remember when AAR New Trend was advertised as great maternal bull. Jim

For me it is simple. Turn them loose in a big pasture to calve on their own and sell the drys. Sell the opens in the fall and if I get to where I have to many of either, admit I've made a selection mistake and make the necessary changes.

I couldn't agree more on the AIing business and DF my data is they don't stay here. On most of the bulls we used AI back in the day on cows, we had around a 75-80% wash out rate by 5 years old with every problem imaginable. Was it my fault for selecting the wrong bulls? Hell yes, but I was using the same bulls everyone else was using. The only AI daughters that we could get to stick around was the ones out of first calve heifers. That was becaues we were selecting the bulls for one specific job and not trying to make them somthing they weren't but the bullls we used on the cows, they were suppose to do it all. Well thats what they claimed anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:32 pm

[quote="df]

LOL. I guess what I meant to say was Continental maternal breeds because Gateway Simmental and Fink Beef Genetics (Charolais) have been selecting for maternal traits more than the average Continental breeders and have the data to prove it.

I guess then I would need to know how you make maternal a priority. What makes you think that any cow/herd/breed is maternal?[/quote]

My question is why do we want maternal Charolais? We have breeds that are more maternal than others and thats what they do best. We have breeds that are more productive in pounds produced but are more terminal and thats what they do best. Why then do we try to change one into the other. It's like a chinese fire drill. I'll make my Angus black Charolais if you'll make your Charolais white Angus. For me it makes so much more sense to breed the most stable of either, for their own specific contributions.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:41 pm

Jack;
That will be a decision that we will have to make when we see it coming. I am not sure that nature won't take care of allot of it by using multiple sire's within our trueline set of females. This year we will breed 300 females to 14 bulls so it will be hard to see much inbreeding regression. If it got to be much over 5% of the offspring that we felt were less than their mothers we probably would consider searching for other solutions, but right now we bred around 400 cows this way last year and don't have over 2 or 3 hd that I would question. We have been in a partnership on about 500 Angus cows that were bought with the thought that the fellow wanted the best Angus cows around and would pay whatever they were worth. We have about 5% dinks in those cattle and every time it gets a little tough a small percentage of the cows just die. I think that the last forty years of testing cattle on high energy rations have built allot of cattle that have to have high energy to survive. The good news is that we partnered with him to supplement our need to pay for some high priced land and have sold those cows at a profit. That is rambling and I apologize.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:47 pm

About the white angus I agree let the charolais be for growth and have them work on grade (which is why we chose Eaton for our terminal cross calve's) it is simple then you keep the black ones and sell the gray. Notihing like individual ID.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:49 pm

Questions I have for anyone in this group, do you think Bob could stand more inbred regression in his black cows since the end game will be to cross them with Char. bulls? Would you get more heterosis from that cross if the black cows were more inbred? Would what you lose on the black steers due to inbred regression be made up from the gain on hybrid vigor on the cross?

Bob, do you breed in two groups or just turn out so many black bulls and so many Char. bulls? Sorry for all the questions Bob but I believe what you are describing as your program may be the best way to make as much net profit one can with commercial cows. I really like the Eaton cattle that I've seen. I have a really good friend that neighbors them and they have good cattle.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:31 am

We have done both. We have used Shoshone bulls for 12 days then pulled them, and put in the charolais when we ran about 400 cows. This allowed us to have a suffient ammount of heifers to replace the cow herd and maximize heterososis. When we needed to build numbers we actualy bought cows and bred them Charolais. At the same time we bred around 300 linebred cows to Shoshone bulls to replace the boughten cows with. What we have actualy found is that we have lost weight on the black heifer calves but dosen't matter they are cows anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:30 am

I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading what you are doing and the results you are having Bob. Thanks for for sharing all of this. I raise bulls for one segment of this industry and that is the commercial producer. Without honest feed back from the producer I'm just throwing darts. I see by some of yor pictures that you feed some of your calves. Do you background them, finish them or just feed to go back to grass?

On another note, HAPPY ST. PATRICKS DAY TO ALL. SURE AND IF YOU'RE NOT IRISH THEN YOU OUGHT TO BE!
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:21 am

Jack: May the wind always be at your back and the road rise to meet you...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:23 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
jhudson wrote:
How do you measure such maternal traits as mothering ability, maternal reliability, adaptation to environment,etc. Anytime a breeder claims he is building maternal herd on years of AI a red flag should automatically go up. I remember when AAR New Trend was advertised as great maternal bull. Jim

For me it is simple. Turn them loose in a big pasture to calve on their own and sell the drys. Sell the opens in the fall and if I get to where I have to many of either, admit I've made a selection mistake and make the necessary changes.

I couldn't agree more on the AIing business and DF my data is they don't stay here. On most of the bulls we used AI back in the day on cows, we had around a 75-80% wash out rate by 5 years old with every problem imaginable. Was it my fault for selecting the wrong bulls? Hell yes, but I was using the same bulls everyone else was using. The only AI daughters that we could get to stick around was the ones out of first calve heifers. That was becaues we were selecting the bulls for one specific job and not trying to make them somthing they weren't but the bullls we used on the cows, they were suppose to do it all. Well thats what they claimed anyway.

Culling the opens don't make the rest maternal. Even the most terminal breeders sell the open ones.

I know it bothers many on this site that many modern Angus don't work for you but are commonly used in other (prominant) Angus herds. So now you have a chance to prove that your maternal cattle are more profitable compared to modern Angus. Will you through data or rely on anecdotal information to make the most informed choices?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:27 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
I'll make my Angus black Charolais if you'll make your Charolais white Angus.

Hasn't that exact thing already happened? It seems to have in my neck of the woods. Selection for calving ease and marbling in the Charolais breed and selection for unlimited growth and yield in the Angus.

Oops, I'd maybe best retract that as I don't have any data to prove it Rolling Eyes
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:30 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
I'll go back to the two sheets of paper. Maternally complemtary would be crossing two maternal lines to cover up the holes in one or both lines. For example crossing EXT's with Shoshone. Both maternal lines in my opinion but each one does something better than the other. I would cross those lines to cover the holes and becaues sooner or later you have to cross them with something to avoid to much inbreeding. It's more of a tweaking than trying to change any trait in a large step but complementary to me would be gaining more from the cross than what you could give up.
Are you interested in crossing two maternal breeds, such as AN and HH, to produce a crossbred cow? Or are you suggesting the cross should be of two maternal lines within one breed?

correction...AN X HH....British terminal breeds...name me two Angus breeders have made selection for maternal their priority?

LOL. I guess what I meant to say was Continental maternal breeds because Gateway Simmental and Fink Beef Genetics (Charolais) have been selecting for maternal traits more than the average Continental breeders and have the data to prove it.

I guess then I would need to know how you make maternal a priority. What makes you think that any cow/herd/breed is maternal?
finally, at last, the data that tells me what the best maternal cow does Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation lay it on me...the last thing i read from fink was "we have used proven AI bulls for 5 generations to build consistency...which is nothing more than more registered bs

Just like you, they use correlated traits and visual appraisal.

Funny everybody is jumping on CH and not SM. I guess the argument against SM would be pretty challenging considering they actually select for profit and according to MARC, have smaller cows compared to Angus. Maybe we should pause for a moment and consider the significant direction change accomplished by SM breeders since Dec, 1992. There is significance to that date, as you might imagine.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:31 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
I'll make my Angus black Charolais if you'll make your Charolais white Angus.

Hasn't that exact thing already happened? It seems to have in my neck of the woods. Selection for calving ease and marbling in the Charolais breed and selection for unlimited growth and yield in the Angus.

Oops, I'd maybe best retract that as I don't have any data to prove it Rolling Eyes

LOL. You don't need data to show Black Charolais. A picture will basically accomplish that. Very Happy

Edit. If it is not the result of spray paint or photo shop.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:08 am

We finish all of the cattle except the cattle that have been given antibiotics which will be between 1 and 5%, by belonging to Country Natural Beef coop we are verticaly intergrated from birth to the housewife. I would like to add that the programs we use to breed cattle came from Larry Leonhardt discussions from the start.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:21 am

There are 3 reasons that we don't use Simmental. They can be black so identity is a problem, we found that the ones we used were not as thrifty, and calving ease, about that if we have trouble we have a dead cow and calf.
I see that M.A.R.C. has finally showed up in these conversations. My opinion is, the research has been flawed since the beginning because they did not start with linebred populations and by doing that all they have essentially done is to compare cross-bred cattle to cross-bred cattle, is it odd that they came up with those results?
scratch
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:53 am

Bob H wrote:
There are 3 reasons that we don't use Simmental. They can be black so identity is a problem, we found that the ones we used were not as thrifty, and calving ease, about that if we have trouble we have a dead cow and calf.
I see that M.A.R.C. has finally showed up in these conversations. My opinion is, the research has been flawed since the beginning because they did not start with linebred populations and by doing that all they have essentially done is to compare cross-bred cattle to cross-bred cattle, is it odd that they came up with those results?
scratch

CSU and Ft Keogh have linebred herds. It might be worth reading about their results.
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