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 a New Flush Cow

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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:17 am

like I stated I am a slow learner. Cross-bred cattle whether they are called angus or any name are still cross-bred. We have about 900 yearlings that we are wintering for some folk's on grass. They have used allot of numbers and data to breed these cattlle and are realy good folks. There are about 225 that are little odds and about 225 that are to big and rough, or 25% on each end. The remaining 450 look ok but I would bet will breed just like the ends. When our cattle looked like this we would end up with about 12% being 10 yearold cows. The problem with this is that you alway's have a group of cattle that are eating and not producing for the year. Whether it be cows or heifer's if you have 12% not producing at an average weight of 850lbs(500lbs hfr+ 1200lbs cow divided by2) x2.8%of body weight 850= 24 lbs of feed per day at .o4 cents perlb= .96cents per day x365 = 350 dollars per year to pack this 12% of free loader's. Now let's say you run 1000 head of cows X 12% is 120 X 350$ equals $42000 dollars. As a commercial cattleman I think that it is invaluable to search out a seedstock producer that linebreed's for your maternal line. As for the terminal on growth alone it appears that in order to get a crossbred angus to compete with an average charolais you would have to inject allot of Simmental or other conntennital breed into your angus to just get a peice of meat.
Not trying to argumentative just giving what our life experince has been with out B S.
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:34 am

No problem Bob H. I respect your experience and thoughfulness in this process. I think we agree what is needed is not what we have. I am just not totally convinced that straightbred commercial cows is the answer. I have a paper of a highly respected purebred British herd that has about 10% remaining in the herd at age 11. Improving that number would greatly impact profitability.
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OAK LANE FARM



Posts : 95
Join date : 2010-09-25

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:17 am

df wrote:
No problem Bob H. I respect your experience and thoughfulness in this process. I think we agree what is needed is not what we have. I am just not totally convinced that straightbred commercial cows is the answer. I have a paper of a highly respected purebred British herd that has about 10% remaining in the herd at age 11. Improving that number would greatly impact profitability.
With years of selection for traits with negative corelations to fertility what would you expect. I doubt whether crossbreeding these same extreme types will significantly enhance fertility. I have never signed on to heterosis being free. More growth- more stress on the cow to breed- more feed required. I recall in the 1970s when Dr. Robert Long warned that continued selection for growth and size would have serious negative consequenses to fertility. We still made them taller and slimmer. Are there tools that might help improve fertility? Maybe but they are of little value as long as a majority of the emphasis is on increasing other production traits. Would cattle with +40 yearling be more fertile than +100 yearling EPDs. Would cattle with +10 milk be more likely to stay in the herd than cattle with +20 milk.
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EddieM



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:51 am

Quote :
Oh contrair my good fellow. Everybody can see the differences in the cows; but few saw the differences in the bulls!!

I would say that Esso and JL's marbling wonder are both in the dud group: all the same to me. Shocked Next page.

Quote :
Obviously, the #1 $B more resembles a feedlot type compared to the Keeney cow. My point was we are back to judging by a picture, something that has some value (and in this case could accurately rank the cows) but using the two extremes for their proper role is easy. But I did not see many who thought the bulls were different, which is much more disturbing to me.

The bulls are not different for the guy trying to graze cattle for a living that calve annually. Sleep

Quote :
Actually, the class students were in prior to livestock judging was graded by ratios. If you ratio 100 or above you got an A or B. 99.99 would get you a C. Mine was 130, which is off the chart and made a couple of pretty good students get a C. But thanks for questioning my lack of ability to see the $B cow for what she is instead of JimL's bull for what he could be . I wonder which takes more talent?

OK, you're off the chart with talent. You were the top hog. You ought to try out for American Idol! cheers
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:53 am

Quote :
I am just not totally convinced that straightbred commercial cows is the answer.

I never thought we were discussing straightbred commercial cattle. I thought we were discussing maternal lines and paternal (terminal) lines to be used by the commercial industry.
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:10 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
I am just not totally convinced that straightbred commercial cows is the answer.

I never thought we were discussing straightbred commercial cattle. I thought we were discussing maternal lines and paternal (terminal) lines to be used by the commercial industry.

The answer I got from Mike is that all crossbreds should not be used as parents and should be considered terminal.
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:17 am

OAK LANE FARM wrote:
df wrote:
No problem Bob H. I respect your experience and thoughfulness in this process. I think we agree what is needed is not what we have. I am just not totally convinced that straightbred commercial cows is the answer. I have a paper of a highly respected purebred British herd that has about 10% remaining in the herd at age 11. Improving that number would greatly impact profitability.
With years of selection for traits with negative corelations to fertility what would you expect. I doubt whether crossbreeding these same extreme types will significantly enhance fertility. I have never signed on to heterosis being free. More growth- more stress on the cow to breed- more feed required. I recall in the 1970s when Dr. Robert Long warned that continued selection for growth and size would have serious negative consequenses to fertility. We still made them taller and slimmer. Are there tools that might help improve fertility? Maybe but they are of little value as long as a majority of the emphasis is on increasing other production traits. Would cattle with +40 yearling be more fertile than +100 yearling EPDs. Would cattle with +10 milk be more likely to stay in the herd than cattle with +20 milk.

We can either discuss correlated traits or measure what we want and select for that trait. Even traits that are low in heritability are worth selecting if they are important to the bottom line. I would put fertility in this category.

I've been told that about 1/3 of the increase in HV comes with a cost above the straightbreds. About 2/3 of the added value is essentially free. It's not all free but close.

I think it would be more productive to discuss an optimum crossbred as opposed to pointing to crossbreeding programs that don't work and saying "see, they don't work".
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:19 am

[quote="EddieM"]
Quote :
The bulls are not different for the guy trying to graze cattle for a living that calve annually. Sleep


Apparently JimL thinks that type of bull works for himself and his customers, which is what really matters.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:11 pm

df wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
I am just not totally convinced that straightbred commercial cows is the answer.

I never thought we were discussing straightbred commercial cattle. I thought we were discussing maternal lines and paternal (terminal) lines to be used by the commercial industry.

The answer I got from Mike is that all crossbreds should not be used as parents and should be considered terminal.
when? where?
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:45 pm

Subject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment Wed 12 Jan 2011, 10:39 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



quote below from MKeeney; the bold is my emphasis
you never should be buying heifers for your own commercial herd; you raise them...unless , of course, they are Show-me-Select heifers that are university approved
for building a cowherd, breed heifers/young cows...yes, save the heifers, all of them...bred them to another inbred strain of the same breed for more replacements; or crossbreed terminally for the market...sexed heifer semen could finally make AI a worthwhile proposition...
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:37 pm

df wrote:
Subject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment Wed 12 Jan 2011, 10:39 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



quote below from MKeeney; the bold is my emphasis
you never should be buying heifers for your own commercial herd; you raise them...unless , of course, they are Show-me-Select heifers that are university approved
for building a cowherd, breed heifers/young cows...yes, save the heifers, all of them...bred them to another inbred strain of the same breed for more replacements; or crossbreed terminally for the market...sexed heifer semen could finally make AI a worthwhile proposition...

Sex semen will be great for making terminal animals. On average 90 percent steer crop would help offset cost of semen and breeding. The question is what bulls will you use to make cows that is available in sex semen?
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Bob H



Posts : 372
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:55 pm

So that I am not misunderstood we live in the desert in Southwest Idaho and have used Shoshone linebred bulls exclusivly for 12 years. At first I thought that I could use Linebred Shoshone and Linebred Eaton bulls in a continual cross for maternal but was mistaken and quit in about 4 years because of too much fallout as mature cows. Since 2003 we have just selected daughter's from at least 1/2 shoshone that year until now we select from 3/4 to 15/16ths to fifth generation females and our cowherd has improved vastly. This year we have 110 of these females having their first calve's out of purebred waygu bulls we feel that these are the finest females we have ever seen. They are mostly calved out . They are calving in a 6000 acre field that we trot a man down thru every 4 day's out of habit. We will bred this population and 175 of their older siblings back to Shoshone Bulls to replace the maternal side of our operation. We expect that 85% of those heifer calves or about 115 hd will make oustanding stock cows. The balanace of our cowherd will be bred to Eaton Charolais which will average about 100 dollars per hd more back on carcasses as the terminal cross. This system is not perfect but works fairly well. My daughter yesterday after much discussion said it a fairly simple system;
we put the boys with girls and get the kids, and the world goes around and around.
DF the problem we ran into with crossbreeding for maternal is that it was always terminal after the first generation.
I am also an order buyer and in my circles I see nothing that will fit our enviroment any better.


Last edited by Bob H on Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:01 pm

df wrote:
Subject: Re: The Value of Genetics...another All Academic moment Wed 12 Jan 2011, 10:39 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



quote below from MKeeney; the bold is my emphasis
you never should be buying heifers for your own commercial herd; you raise them...unless , of course, they are Show-me-Select heifers that are university approved
for building a cowherd, breed heifers/young cows...yes, save the heifers, all of them...bred them to another inbred strain of the same breed for more replacements; or crossbreed terminally for the market...sexed heifer semen could finally make AI a worthwhile proposition...
Not sure the context of the above, Tru-line, etc...but I think you over-stated my position or I mis-stated it...breed them to an inbred strain of another breed if you want crossbred females; not just for heterosis, but for complimentary traits...I sure have no problem with that...I admire Dennis`s Longhorn cross females as a case in point...
but after a bit, the "system" produces a little helter-skelter mix of calves...
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df



Posts : 613
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:24 am

Well, that does clarify what this site is about. It seemed odd to me that MKeeney held one strong view and everybody else held another strong, yet opposing view. Now it appears the posters are on the same page.

In your opinion, is the greatest value of a crossbreeding the two maternal lines to obtain hybrid vigor or to match the two maternal breeds for breed complimentarity?
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:07 am

df wrote:
Well, that does clarify what this site is about. It seemed odd to me that MKeeney held one strong view and everybody else held another strong, yet opposing view. Now it appears the posters are on the same page.

In your opinion, is the greatest value of a crossbreeding the two maternal lines to obtain hybrid vigor or to match the two maternal breeds for breed complimentarity?

Why would anyone cross two maternal lines to obtain hybred vigor? For me any way, the only reason for crossing two maternal lines would be for maternal complementarity. When I think hybred vigor I think mostly growth so I would cross my maternal line with a more ( for lack of a better word ) terminal line to achieve hybred vigor.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:30 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
df wrote:
Well, that does clarify what this site is about. It seemed odd to me that MKeeney held one strong view and everybody else held another strong, yet opposing view. Now it appears the posters are on the same page.

In your opinion, is the greatest value of a crossbreeding the two maternal lines to obtain hybrid vigor or to match the two maternal breeds for breed complimentarity?

Why would anyone cross two maternal lines to obtain hybred vigor? For me any way, the only reason for crossing two maternal lines would be for maternal complementarity. When I think hybred vigor I think mostly growth so I would cross my maternal line with a more ( for lack of a better word ) terminal line to achieve hybred vigor.
Jack, good point... most "maternal" heterosis is achieved by crossing breeds selected for something other than maternal...if you breed for maternal, can crossing it achieve anything?
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:52 am

When I think of crossing two maternal line in the context of two sheets of papers with holes in them I can certainly see the benifits but it would be maternally complementary and any heterosis would be an unintened benifit but certainly not the goal for me.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:05 am

When I think of hybrid vigor, I think of more pounds weaned over the cow's lifetime. Most of the benefit is in reproduction with some benefit from milk and growth. I think of breed complimentarity as adding some growth and carcass value, especially carcass weight, leanness and ribeye area. Classic crossbreeding has been a two-breed rotation of two British breeds such as Angus and Hereford with a portion of the herd mated to Charolais and all of the Charolais sired calves are sold. Typically too complicated for most producers but some can make it work.

The greatest benefit of hybrid vigor has been shown on low heritable traits such as reproduction. If crossbreeding for growth benefits, the cross of Angus and Charolais should worked.

Could you clarify what you mean by "maternal complimentarity" as the word complimentarity is usually associated with mating higher growth/carcass value breeds to lower growth/maternal lines?



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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:17 am

This is all good but the end result is the same terminal and that is not sustainable it is short term monetary gain. trueline angus x linebred hereford = f1 cross back on self terminal. f1 cross X charolias terminal it is all terminal.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:27 am

I'll go back to the two sheets of paper. Maternally complemtary would be crossing two maternal lines to cover up the holes in one or both lines. For example crossing EXT's with Shoshone. Both maternal lines in my opinion but each one does something better than the other. I would cross those lines to cover the holes and becaues sooner or later you have to cross them with something to avoid to much inbreeding. It's more of a tweaking than trying to change any trait in a large step but complementary to me would be gaining more from the cross than what you could give up.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:37 am

Jack I am not that far along we have only been using Shoshone bulls for 12 years where we use mutiple sire's on the population we have not experinced a very high percentage of what we feel are inbreeding problems less than 1/2 of 1% and at 53 years old this maybe something that my daughter 24 will worry more about. It appears that we will put the boy's with the girls and get the little one's until I am long gone.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:07 pm

Bob H wrote:
This is all good but the end result is the same terminal and that is not sustainable it is short term monetary gain. trueline angus x linebred hereford = f1 cross back on self terminal. f1 cross X charolias terminal it is all terminal.

So you are in the camp who believes any crossbred progeny should be considered terminal?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:08 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
I'll go back to the two sheets of paper. Maternally complemtary would be crossing two maternal lines to cover up the holes in one or both lines. For example crossing EXT's with Shoshone. Both maternal lines in my opinion but each one does something better than the other. I would cross those lines to cover the holes and becaues sooner or later you have to cross them with something to avoid to much inbreeding. It's more of a tweaking than trying to change any trait in a large step but complementary to me would be gaining more from the cross than what you could give up.
Are you interested in crossing two maternal breeds, such as AN and HH, to produce a crossbred cow? Or are you suggesting the cross should be of two maternal lines within one breed?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:33 pm

df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
I'll go back to the two sheets of paper. Maternally complemtary would be crossing two maternal lines to cover up the holes in one or both lines. For example crossing EXT's with Shoshone. Both maternal lines in my opinion but each one does something better than the other. I would cross those lines to cover the holes and becaues sooner or later you have to cross them with something to avoid to much inbreeding. It's more of a tweaking than trying to change any trait in a large step but complementary to me would be gaining more from the cross than what you could give up.
Are you interested in crossing two maternal breeds, such as AN and HH, to produce a crossbred cow? Or are you suggesting the cross should be of two maternal lines within one breed?

correction...AN X HH....British terminal breeds...name me two Angus breeders have made selection for maternal their priority?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:19 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
I'll go back to the two sheets of paper. Maternally complemtary would be crossing two maternal lines to cover up the holes in one or both lines. For example crossing EXT's with Shoshone. Both maternal lines in my opinion but each one does something better than the other. I would cross those lines to cover the holes and becaues sooner or later you have to cross them with something to avoid to much inbreeding. It's more of a tweaking than trying to change any trait in a large step but complementary to me would be gaining more from the cross than what you could give up.
Are you interested in crossing two maternal breeds, such as AN and HH, to produce a crossbred cow? Or are you suggesting the cross should be of two maternal lines within one breed?

correction...AN X HH....British terminal breeds...name me two Angus breeders have made selection for maternal their priority?

LOL. I guess what I meant to say was Continental maternal breeds because Gateway Simmental and Fink Beef Genetics (Charolais) have been selecting for maternal traits more than the average Continental breeders and have the data to prove it.

I guess then I would need to know how you make maternal a priority. What makes you think that any cow/herd/breed is maternal?
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