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 a New Flush Cow

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: a New Flush Cow   Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:00 pm

send me your flush semen, and linebred prepotency can make your outcross bull a red hot rarity in the registered world; just keep my name out of it...then your money can be used to make my linebred, genepool flushes...her last outcross calf weighed 785 actual at weaning...she`s gentle as a puppy, so even EXT stuff might let you live...She`s slick haired, some of those northern wooly momouths might be ok...perfect teat size, collapsible udder with super fore attachment, those bad uddered $B leader cows that look like bulls, could be helped, though my goodness, not cured...
her reg number...14632339
She goes to Black Prince of Sunbeam born in 1935 if that troubles you, but I`m more concerned about the fertility issues of having a 1893 born bull called Gay Lad in her pedigree...



her recent dozing baby boy is sired by Larkota`s Encore/Bob flush cow {yes, we breed cows to cows through their sons and grandsons}, plus the sire has Encore one more time...


and when the flush kitty gets full enough...Dennis, 1116 will be the serious mating...
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:46 pm

oh baby how very interesting. One line of cattle we are working with are the Juanada cattle and they go back to Black Prince of Sunbeam. Juanada 7 of P J M goes back to him 7 times. We're using a bull 16453112 that goes back to Juanada 7 nine times if you ever want to wrap it a little tighter... Very functional cattle. The oldest Juanada line goes back to some Ballindalloch cattle. Interesting with Wye selling two Elimast of Ballindalloch sons in their sale. Don't worry about the Gay Lad bull. Named back in the day when gay meant happy. Very Happy Not a name I'd bring forward today though.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:16 am



Contrasted to the number 1 dollar beef cow in the breed...Question for df ...which cow would you prefer to make a commercial profit with?

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robert



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:24 am

no, no, no! Ya got to look at the NUMBERS Mike, we'll just kind of ignore that sad, sorry looking deflated AI glove she has for an udder.............

nice cow that, your potential donor, I sure hope there isn't a bunch just like her or there'll be no rarity value in that. Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:54 am

robert wrote:
no, no, no! Ya got to look at the NUMBERS Mike, we'll just kind of ignore that sad, sorry looking deflated AI glove she has for an udder.............

nice cow that, your potential donor, I sure hope there isn't a bunch just like her or there'll be no rarity value in that. Smile
well, I sure don`t have too many like her, but at the same time, everybody that pays attention to maternal function as a first priority has some of them...and can make more, by using their own instead of buying mine...and then those wishing to get them on their own more often, can hopefully find worthy information here of a "how to" nature...
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:28 am

I am trying to get all EXCITED about these individuals, not working very well, as I remember tooooooo many of them being the same. When I saw this picture come up, said to myself, Loooooong narrow head, good under, deep, not toooo much muscle, yip, Encore. Then I thought, well that is the cow in with Scotty, whom never seems to be mentioned around here, but then you said the calf was sired by that cow. A bunch of nonsense to say, nice work Mike, and flush or no flush, still a heap of goodness.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:12 am

This is what the Angus breed was once synonymous for.

MKeeney wrote:


Contrasted to the number 1 dollar beef cow in the breed...Question for df ...which cow would you prefer to make a commercial profit with?


This is what the numbers breeders have turned it into.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:20 am

Claire is home on spring break. Her quote was and 'that picture is the one that makes her look the best". The sadest thing to me is that someone is proud enough to take a fancy picture of her and put it in their catalog. No blue sky with her though.
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:41 am

Better get your stock detectives out riding Mike. I can see smoke north and east of here. I'm sure the RR&R (rarity rangers and rustlers) are burning up their computers trying to figure out Black Prince of Sunbeam. They'll be coming like coyotes to a carcass and you know which end they'll start eating from.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:54 am

Put me down for three flushes MK. I'm thinkin Emblazon and N Bar Shadow for sure, and then probably whatever that latest high-selling Schaff bull was. I'm not worried about Gay Lad, but I am a little intrigued by Queen of B J.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:26 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
This is what the Angus breed was once synonymous for.

MKeeney wrote:


Contrasted to the number 1 dollar beef cow in the breed...Question for df ...which cow would you prefer to make a commercial profit with?


This is what the numbers breeders have turned it into.

click here to watch the ultimate in hypocrisy and BS advertising...title could be "a " Angus cow maybe, but not "the " Angus cow...

http://www.angus.org/pub/Videos.aspx?id=107&desc=The%20Angus%20Cow:%20She%20Has%20No%20Equal
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:27 pm

While y'all seem to be seeing some sort of differences between the keeney cow and the big $b cow, my immediate responses to both pictures were almost identical:

Response to keeney cow: "that's a cow."

Response to big $b cow: "that's a cow?"

Not much difference really.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:17 am

MKeeney wrote:


Contrasted to the number 1 dollar beef cow in the breed...Question for df ...which cow would you prefer to make a commercial profit with?


Well, I guess if we are going to just use phenotypic selection to judge the worth of a cow, I will have to reach waaaaaaay back to my college judging days where I was taught by a Chester White producer on how to select animals. Geez, MikeK, do you really want me to use information I gained on a judging team in a land grant institution by a "heritage" hog producer from Illinois, who first attended a junior college prior to going to a land grant institution? Shocked Shocked Shocked

While I really like your cow and would prefer to use her in commercial production, I cannot say for sure if she is the most profitable cow. If you can assure me that your cow is more fertile and require less labor inputs to make up for the growth and carcass value superiority of the #1 $B cow, that would give me more confidence in my selection. In other words, just having phenotypes, I am forced to make judgements based on a picture (which everybody wanted to chastise me, claiming nobody makes selection based just on phenotypes, yet here we are doing exactly that). On the other hand, data related to reproduction would go a long way.

I find it funny that JimL's bull is compared to Esso when his bull may be exactly the most profitable for JimL and JimL's customers in JimL's environment (and looks nothing like the picture of Esso). Again, judging a picture because we all think we are so smart, completely understanding genetics plus environment plus genetics x environment. Yet, I know I have no interest in living where JimL lives (and he would probably hate the rocks, E+ fescue, cedar tree, humid environment of southern MO) and would guess that his grass is pretty washy (although everybody sees the volume of green grass as heaven for their cows).
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:20 am

Why are you asking me to judge these cows that are raised in two different environments and make that selection based on a picture, which is just a snapshot in time? I thought you said we could not learn enough from a visit to a producers farm to make these decisions.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:42 am

wow..dead ringer for Esso, and you don`t see that? you must have had a hog guy for coach...scratch that trip to look at that bull for me, like breeding, if you want an opinion you trust, get your own...
you can take all the fertility measures you want DF, you could get Patterson to palpate the ovaries, measure her pelvic area, attend Sally`s lectures on Genomic use, visit me or whoever etc...and you still won`t know much about how to make a living with a cow...
I thought the pictures were enough different to cast judgement on, I guess not...I thought someone might say, both are neccessary and useful types in their proper place...nope, expected too much...and in Buffet mood this morning, it`s my own damn fault...
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:56 am

I would have to agree with DF, with my lack of ability I would have to breed a population of our own cows with both cows genetic's. Then wait around about ten years to see who was still around and why. That is why we don't make very quick decsions about the maternal side of our cow herd. It could take you out of the commercial bussiness with one peridigm that was not well thought out. Sustainable decisions I think are the cornerstone for commercial cattlemen. With that said I believe that linebred herds are the only way for a commercial cattleman to make educated decisions for the maternial parent. The terminal side is much easier.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:03 am

MKeeney wrote:
wow..dead ringer for Esso, and you don`t see that? you must have had a hog guy for coach...scratch that trip to look at that bull for me, like breeding, if you want an opinion you trust, get your own...
you can take all the fertility measures you want DF, you could get Patterson to palpate the ovaries, measure her pelvic area, attend Sally`s lectures on Genomic use, visit me or whoever etc...and you still won`t know much about how to make a living with a cow...
I thought the pictures were enough different to cast judgement on, I guess not...I thought someone might say, both are neccessary and useful types in their proper place...nope, expected too much...and in Buffet mood this morning, it`s my own damn fault...

I guess I thought JimL's bull and Esso pictures were enough different that those who commented could see the difference. I guess not. I suppose I am out of practice of seeing the "dead ringer" to Esso. I better go back to using all the information to make my selections instead of basing value on a picture of two bulls that are obviously (except to me) identical.

You don't have to collect data if you don't want to. Making a living with a cow is more than inbreeding coefficients.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:04 am

Bob H wrote:
I would have to agree with DF, with my lack of ability I would have to breed a population of our own cows with both cows genetic's. Then wait around about ten years to see who was still around and why. That is why we don't make very quick decsions about the maternal side of our cow herd. It could take you out of the commercial bussiness with one peridigm that was not well thought out. Sustainable decisions I think are the cornerstone for commercial cattlemen. With that said I believe that linebred herds are the only way for a commercial cattleman to make educated decisions for the maternial parent. The terminal side is much easier.
in df`s paradigm, there is no maternal/terminal...you can have it all in one
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:08 am

Bob H wrote:
I would have to agree with DF, with my lack of ability I would have to breed a population of our own cows with both cows genetic's. Then wait around about ten years to see who was still around and why. That is why we don't make very quick decsions about the maternal side of our cow herd. It could take you out of the commercial bussiness with one peridigm that was not well thought out. Sustainable decisions I think are the cornerstone for commercial cattlemen. With that said I believe that linebred herds are the only way for a commercial cattleman to make educated decisions for the maternial parent. The terminal side is much easier.

I would guess you have plenty of experience to know which cow would work for you just like the other posters (and lurkers) on this site. Very Happy As I stated in my post, I don't know which is most profitable because MikeK's cow may be out of some easy fleshing, no milking, bad footed genetics he cusses. I don't know that but if that was the case, his low growth, small ribeye area cow may be less profitable. Again, using the available data might be better than assuming a snapshot in time is an accurate reflection of profit.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:09 am

MKeeney wrote:
Bob H wrote:
I would have to agree with DF, with my lack of ability I would have to breed a population of our own cows with both cows genetic's. Then wait around about ten years to see who was still around and why. That is why we don't make very quick decsions about the maternal side of our cow herd. It could take you out of the commercial bussiness with one peridigm that was not well thought out. Sustainable decisions I think are the cornerstone for commercial cattlemen. With that said I believe that linebred herds are the only way for a commercial cattleman to make educated decisions for the maternial parent. The terminal side is much easier.
in df`s paradigm, there is no maternal/terminal...you can have it all in one

That is incorrect. But I do believe in crossbred commercial cows, unlike you.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:15 am

Bob H wrote:
I would have to agree with DF, with my lack of ability I would have to breed a population of our own cows with both cows genetic's. Then wait around about ten years to see who was still around and why. That is why we don't make very quick decsions about the maternal side of our cow herd. It could take you out of the commercial bussiness with one peridigm that was not well thought out. Sustainable decisions I think are the cornerstone for commercial cattlemen. With that said I believe that linebred herds are the only way for a commercial cattleman to make educated decisions for the maternial parent. The terminal side is much easier.

Getting reproductive information would be much quicker (< 5 years) than the wait has been for the Tru-line concept (> 30 years ago) to take the beef industry by storm, which I highly respect BTW.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:15 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
wow..dead ringer for Esso, and you don`t see that? you must have had a hog guy for coach...scratch that trip to look at that bull for me, like breeding, if you want an opinion you trust, get your own...
you can take all the fertility measures you want DF, you could get Patterson to palpate the ovaries, measure her pelvic area, attend Sally`s lectures on Genomic use, visit me or whoever etc...and you still won`t know much about how to make a living with a cow...
I thought the pictures were enough different to cast judgement on, I guess not...I thought someone might say, both are neccessary and useful types in their proper place...nope, expected too much...and in Buffet mood this morning, it`s my own damn fault...

I guess I thought JimL's bull and Esso pictures were enough different that those who commented could see the difference. I guess not. I suppose I am out of practice of seeing the "dead ringer" to Esso. I better go back to using all the information to make my selections instead of basing value on a picture of two bulls that are obviously (except to me) identical.

You don't have to collect data if you don't want to. Making a living with a cow is more than inbreeding coefficients.

your having a JimL morning df...making up things to argue with that I don`t have time for...it`s data time for me; add newborn calves to calving book, guess the birthweight, enter an udder score...if you need more , don`t waste your time here....
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:29 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
wow..dead ringer for Esso, and you don`t see that? you must have had a hog guy for coach...scratch that trip to look at that bull for me, like breeding, if you want an opinion you trust, get your own...
you can take all the fertility measures you want DF, you could get Patterson to palpate the ovaries, measure her pelvic area, attend Sally`s lectures on Genomic use, visit me or whoever etc...and you still won`t know much about how to make a living with a cow...
I thought the pictures were enough different to cast judgement on, I guess not...I thought someone might say, both are neccessary and useful types in their proper place...nope, expected too much...and in Buffet mood this morning, it`s my own damn fault...

I guess I thought JimL's bull and Esso pictures were enough different that those who commented could see the difference. I guess not. I suppose I am out of practice of seeing the "dead ringer" to Esso. I better go back to using all the information to make my selections instead of basing value on a picture of two bulls that are obviously (except to me) identical.

You don't have to collect data if you don't want to. Making a living with a cow is more than inbreeding coefficients.

your having a JimL morning df...making up things to argue with that I don`t have time for...it`s data time for me; add newborn calves to calving book, guess the birthweight, enter an udder score...if you need more , don`t waste your time here....

No wonder you don't think EPDs have value to you........guessing the birthweight? Proven time and again to have no value yet here we are.

Actually, I don't think I need more as long as you tell me every time she has a calf, dead or alive, and if she left the herd as a pregnant or open cow. As long as you told me for every cow, I think I could get a pretty good idea which sires work for you and which ones did not. What would be even more valuable is if you could take a birthdate, WW, YW and mature wt. That should not be to hard as all contemporary groups go across the scale together.

I did not purposely make anything up. Only amazed that I see lots of differences between the pictures in terms of profile/conformation which actually leads me to believe some things that I would see if I had a different angle.

I suppose if they are the same, their EPDs related to conformation should be similar? Or is that a stretch? Maybe you want to use about 50 units of each and let us all know how similar these two bulls are? Wink I suspect you think you would have a uniform calf crop by using these two bulls.


Last edited by df on Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:00 am


Quote :
Well, I guess if we are going to just use phenotypic selection to judge the worth of a cow, I will have to reach waaaaaaay back to my college judging days where I was taught by a Chester White producer on how to select animals. Geez, MikeK, do you really want me to use information I gained on a judging team in a land grant institution by a "heritage" hog producer from Illinois, who first attended a junior college prior to going to a land grant institution?

While I really like your cow and would prefer to use her in commercial production, I cannot say for sure if she is the most profitable cow. If you can assure me that your cow is more fertile and require less labor inputs to make up for the growth and carcass value superiority of the #1 $B cow, that would give me more confidence in my selection. In other words, just having phenotypes, I am forced to make judgements based on a picture (which everybody wanted to chastise me, claiming nobody makes selection based just on phenotypes, yet here we are doing exactly that). On the other hand, data related to reproduction would go a long way.

I find it funny that JimL's bull is compared to Esso when his bull may be exactly the most profitable for JimL and JimL's customers in JimL's environment (and looks nothing like the picture of Esso). Again, judging a picture because we all think we are so smart, completely understanding genetics plus environment plus genetics x environment. Yet, I know I have no interest in living where JimL lives (and he would probably hate the rocks, E+ fescue, cedar tree, humid environment of southern MO) and would guess that his grass is pretty washy (although everybody sees the volume of green grass as heaven for their cows).

df, you missed your calling to be a politician. You covered all bases and said nothing. If you cannot see a gutless, slab sided, hungry ox type wonder in the bottom picture then you were the one who got the benefit of grade inflation when you were given a passing grade in the hog judging class. That cow would work in a feedlot but she would be a calfless rail in a pasture where normal folks feed their cows. You need to get over to the "x" site and you can be Jimmy Hoffa in the Jimmyfest.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: a New Flush Cow   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:15 am

EddieM wrote:

Quote :
Well, I guess if we are going to just use phenotypic selection to judge the worth of a cow, I will have to reach waaaaaaay back to my college judging days where I was taught by a Chester White producer on how to select animals. Geez, MikeK, do you really want me to use information I gained on a judging team in a land grant institution by a "heritage" hog producer from Illinois, who first attended a junior college prior to going to a land grant institution?

While I really like your cow and would prefer to use her in commercial production, I cannot say for sure if she is the most profitable cow. If you can assure me that your cow is more fertile and require less labor inputs to make up for the growth and carcass value superiority of the #1 $B cow, that would give me more confidence in my selection. In other words, just having phenotypes, I am forced to make judgements based on a picture (which everybody wanted to chastise me, claiming nobody makes selection based just on phenotypes, yet here we are doing exactly that). On the other hand, data related to reproduction would go a long way.

I find it funny that JimL's bull is compared to Esso when his bull may be exactly the most profitable for JimL and JimL's customers in JimL's environment (and looks nothing like the picture of Esso). Again, judging a picture because we all think we are so smart, completely understanding genetics plus environment plus genetics x environment. Yet, I know I have no interest in living where JimL lives (and he would probably hate the rocks, E+ fescue, cedar tree, humid environment of southern MO) and would guess that his grass is pretty washy (although everybody sees the volume of green grass as heaven for their cows).

df, you missed your calling to be a politician. You covered all bases and said nothing. If you cannot see a gutless, slab sided, hungry ox type wonder in the bottom picture then you were the one who got the benefit of grade inflation when you were given a passing grade in the hog judging class. That cow would work in a feedlot but she would be a calfless rail in a pasture where normal folks feed their cows. You need to get over to the "x" site and you can be Jimmy Hoffa in the Jimmyfest.

Oh contrair my good fellow. Everybody can see the differences in the cows; but few saw the differences in the bulls!!

Obviously, the #1 $B more resembles a feedlot type compared to the Keeney cow. My point was we are back to judging by a picture, something that has some value (and in this case could accurately rank the cows) but using the two extremes for their proper role is easy. But I did not see many who thought the bulls were different, which is much more disturbing to me.

Actually, the class students were in prior to livestock judging was graded by ratios. If you ratio 100 or above you got an A or B. 99.99 would get you a C. Mine was 130, which is off the chart and made a couple of pretty good students get a C. But thanks for questioning my lack of ability Rolling Eyes to see the $B cow for what she is instead of JimL's bull for what he could be Wink . I wonder which takes more talent?
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