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 What does a breed mean again?

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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: What does a breed mean again?   Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:31 am

I got some info emailed to me today on a Galloway bull that has some offspring coming up for sale soon. It causes me to ponder what the purpose of a breed is when it is being marketed as something totally different to that breeds purpose, another case of all kinds under the sun being available in one "breed".


"Big Deal Safe Passport 5S was the highest Gaining Galloway bull at Cattleland Bull Test in 2007, gaining 4.32 lbs/day.

We have 3 lines of selection: growthiness, maternal/grass finishing and calving ease lines.

Passport 5S is from our growthier lines of selection. 5S is off a cow that weighs 1900 lbs and her dam weighed 1800 lbs.

If you are looking for a Galloway that offers the growthiness of the other breeds, consider a bull off Passport 5S."
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:43 am

Quote :
It causes me to ponder what the purpose of a breed is when it is being marketed as something totally different to that breeds purpose

The breed is the same. The ad is for either an outlier or an outcross.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:57 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
It causes me to ponder what the purpose of a breed is when it is being marketed as something totally different to that breeds purpose

The breed is the same. The ad is for either an outlier or an outcross.

But doesn't the breed cease to be a breed when it has no breed characteristics ? I mean why not throw this bull in with Simmentals or Chianinas and sort them on the EPDs. It might be closer to them than Galloways. It appears to be a complete BS program. I got a follow up email today regarding another of their bulls who is off a "different line" - the grass based line that will moderate cow size - He is off the same sire as the "monster size, monster growth line" Isn't that the definition of a BS program??

"The attached flier is for Big Deal Salvation 17S, sire of Lots 1, 2, 15 & 16 in our upcoming sale. Salvation represents several generations of selection for Galloways that will do well on grass, that will moderate cow size and offer calving ease. Salvation did well at Cattleland Bull Test for Residual Feed Intake. Specific performance data is summarized in the attached flier."
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:06 pm

good stuff here...and presents a great opportunity to requote LL...

Many differences in EPD are highly overvalued and have had little lasting impact overall on commercial profitability, in fact the way we misuse them, they likely have had a net negative effect. When cattle breed like they look, EPD are not necessary, being satisfied with that look is an entirely different proposition - Larry Leonhardt, Shoshone Angus, Cowley, WY
"
I`m going to add...hmmm...maybe just ask...when cattle breed like they look, we don`t need breeds anymore...the TYPE is the "breed", and will have more to do with determining outcome than what "breed" a registration paper denotes an animal registered as...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:05 am

MKeeney wrote:
good stuff here...and presents a great opportunity to requote LL...

Many differences in EPD are highly overvalued and have had little lasting impact overall on commercial profitability, in fact the way we misuse them, they likely have had a net negative effect. When cattle breed like they look, EPD are not necessary, being satisfied with that look is an entirely different proposition - Larry Leonhardt, Shoshone Angus, Cowley, WY
"
I`m going to add...hmmm...maybe just ask...when cattle breed like they look, we don`t need breeds anymore...the TYPE is the "breed", and will have more to do with determining outcome than what "breed" a registration paper denotes an animal registered as...

But isn't the day when cattle breed like they look, when the "type is the breed" way, way off in the distance and getting further by the day as long as this kind of BS program is the most common type prevailing? This kind of garbage based on one generation phenotype where a bull is claimed to sire sons that will moderate mature size and have low birth weights out of one cow but out of another cow will produce extreme size and growth is surely destructive to a breed and to forming any type? Or this simply a misunderstanding by the breeder of what he has really got? ie will the two bull's offspring revert to herd average and neither live up to the marketing claims made for them?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:26 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
good stuff here...and presents a great opportunity to requote LL...

Many differences in EPD are highly overvalued and have had little lasting impact overall on commercial profitability, in fact the way we misuse them, they likely have had a net negative effect. When cattle breed like they look, EPD are not necessary, being satisfied with that look is an entirely different proposition - Larry Leonhardt, Shoshone Angus, Cowley, WY
"
I`m going to add...hmmm...maybe just ask...when cattle breed like they look, we don`t need breeds anymore...the TYPE is the "breed", and will have more to do with determining outcome than what "breed" a registration paper denotes an animal registered as...

But isn't the day when cattle breed like they look, when the "type is the breed" way, way off in the distance and getting further by the day as long as this kind of BS program is the most common type prevailing? This kind of garbage based on one generation phenotype where a bull is claimed to sire sons that will moderate mature size and have low birth weights out of one cow but out of another cow will produce extreme size and growth is surely destructive to a breed and to forming any type? Or this simply a misunderstanding by the breeder of what he has really got? ie will the two bull's offspring revert to herd average and neither live up to the marketing claims made for them?
I got a big kick out of reading the most recent Sinclair newsletter...an excellent story by Bob Hough I`ll try to reprint promoting moderation...and I guess the Sinclair "program" ...then, guess what??? the bulls Sinclair are keeping breeding interest in are the heaviest outliers...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:47 am

Quote :
This kind of garbage based on one generation phenotype where a bull is claimed to sire sons that will moderate mature size and have low birth weights out of one cow but out of another cow will produce extreme size and growth is surely destructive to a breed and to forming any type? Or this simply a misunderstanding by the breeder of what he has really got? ie will the two bull's offspring revert to herd average and neither live up to the marketing claims made for them?

This is pretty common place and widely accepted until the daughters of the calving ease bull (determined in one generation) begin to have large calves or the sons of the "growth son" look like large goats. Stability is the key and nobody, or few, seek stability, only MORE of whatever sells that day. And, they want to sell it all from one pot: low fat, high test, like home made, none better, old timey, best yet, new and different. Each ladle full brings up a new and different dish.

I'd say that your breeder of question has a lot to defend in coming years if he offers a guarantee. He wants to be all things to all people.
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:55 am

The Jimmies are jamming about their pictured Brangus bull (act. a Smittys Focus on BS son) who has a rock picker brush attachment multi-purpose tool assembly and if you get behind him he looks just like a fence post with a tail. He sure has the Brangus head and front end, I just love to jam with the Jimmies, ah Freedom, Freedom
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:31 am

IMHO I see why Big Jim looks for corrector bulls outside of his program.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:30 am

I think Jim's bull is a testimonial for the "find the cattle that work for you then learn to like what they look like" school of thought. At least I hope thats whats going on.

And a bull at Cow Creek called Jim's bull-- he is asking that Jim's bull return his sheath and front end.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:20 pm

I wonder if that`s the bull he decided to not let me have after I asked him what kind of growth, terminal bulls he had in the sale about 5 years ago that I wasn`t about to buy for anymore than $1800...grown-ups say the darnest kid like things...
but all is not lost; there`s a learning opportunity in every venue we travel...I was about to quote the rhyme "the three blind mice" this morning; remembering it as a harmless nursery ryhme, but re-checked te lines on google...and found it`s blood curddling inspiration...and yes LarryL, it`s because of google that you believe me well read Shocked mk


The origin of the 'tale' of Three blind mice!
The origin of the words to the Three blind mice rhyme are based in English history. The 'farmer's wife' refers to the daughter of King Henry VIII, Queen Mary I. Mary was a staunch Catholic and her violent persecution of Protestants led to the nickname of 'Bloody Mary'. The reference to 'farmer's wife' in Three blind mice refers to the massive estates which she, and her husband King Philip of Spain, possessed.

The 'three blind mice' were three noblemen who adhered to the Protestant faith who were convicted of plotting against the Queen - she did not have them dismembered and blinded as inferred in Three blind mice - but she did have them burnt at the stake

The origins are steeped in history... Bloody Mary!
The Mary alluded to in this traditional English nursery rhyme is reputed to be Mary Tudor, or Bloody Mary, who was the daughter of King Henry VIII. Queen Mary was a staunch Catholic and the garden referred to is an allusion to graveyards which were increasing in size with those who dared to continue to adhere to the Protestant faith - Protestant martyrs.

Instruments of Torture!
The silver bells and cockle shells referred to in the Nursery Rhyme were colloquialisms for instruments of torture. The 'silver bells' were thumbscrews which crushed the thumb between two hard surfaces by the tightening of a screw. The 'cockleshells' were believed to be instruments of torture which were attached to the genitals!

The " Maids" or Maiden was the original guillotine!
The 'maids' were a device to behead people called the Maiden. Beheading a victim was fraught with problems. It could take up to 11 blows to actually sever the head, the victim often resisted and had to be chased around the scaffold. Margaret Pole (1473 - 1541), Countess of Salisbury did not go willingly to her death and had to be chased and hacked at by the Executioner. These problems led to the invention of a mechanical instrument (now known as the guillotine) called the Maiden - shortened to Maids in the Mary Mary Nursery Rhyme. The Maiden had long been in use in England before Lord Morton, regent of Scotland during the minority of James VI, had a copy constructed from the Maiden which had been used in Halifax in Yorkshire. Ironically, Lord Morton fell from favour and was the first to experience the Maiden in Scotland!

Executions!
Another form of execution during Mary's reign was being burnt at the stake - a terrible punishment much used during the Spanish Inquisition. The English hated the Spanish and dreaded the idea of an English Inquisition. The executions during the reign of Bloody Mary were therefore viewed with a greater fear of the Spanish than the executions themselves - it is interesting to note that executions during her reign totalled less than 300 an insignificant amount compared to the executions ordered by her father King Henry VIII which are believed to have numbered tens of thousands! We recommend the following site for more facts and information about Bloody Mary

Mary Mary Quite Contrary: Origins and History

Mary Mary quite contrary,
How does your garden grow?
With silver bells and cockle shells
And pretty maids all in a row.

WHEWWWWW..ENOUGH; ENOUGH... Sad

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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:15 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I wonder if that`s the bull he decided to not let me have after I asked him what kind of growth, terminal bulls he had in the sale about 5 years ago that I wasn`t about to buy for anymore than $1800...grown-ups say the darnest kid like things...
but all is not lost; there`s a learning opportunity in every venue we travel...I was about to quote the rhyme "the three blind mice" this morning; remembering it as a harmless nursery ryhme, but re-checked te lines on google...and found it`s blood curddling inspiration...and yes LarryL, it`s because of google that you believe me well read Shocked mk


The origin of the 'tale' of Three blind mice!
The origin of the words to the Three blind mice rhyme are based in English history. The 'farmer's wife' refers to the daughter of King Henry VIII, Queen Mary I. Mary was a staunch Catholic and her violent persecution of Protestants led to the nickname of 'Bloody Mary'. The reference to 'farmer's wife' in Three blind mice refers to the massive estates which she, and her husband King Philip of Spain, possessed.

The 'three blind mice' were three noblemen who adhered to the Protestant faith who were convicted of plotting against the Queen - she did not have them dismembered and blinded as inferred in Three blind mice - but she did have them burnt at the stake

The origins are steeped in history... Bloody Mary!
The Mary alluded to in this traditional English nursery rhyme is reputed to be Mary Tudor, or Bloody Mary, who was the daughter of King Henry VIII. Queen Mary was a staunch Catholic and the garden referred to is an allusion to graveyards which were increasing in size with those who dared to continue to adhere to the Protestant faith - Protestant martyrs.

Instruments of Torture!
The silver bells and cockle shells referred to in the Nursery Rhyme were colloquialisms for instruments of torture. The 'silver bells' were thumbscrews which crushed the thumb between two hard surfaces by the tightening of a screw. The 'cockleshells' were believed to be instruments of torture which were attached to the genitals!

The " Maids" or Maiden was the original guillotine!
The 'maids' were a device to behead people called the Maiden. Beheading a victim was fraught with problems. It could take up to 11 blows to actually sever the head, the victim often resisted and had to be chased around the scaffold. Margaret Pole (1473 - 1541), Countess of Salisbury did not go willingly to her death and had to be chased and hacked at by the Executioner. These problems led to the invention of a mechanical instrument (now known as the guillotine) called the Maiden - shortened to Maids in the Mary Mary Nursery Rhyme. The Maiden had long been in use in England before Lord Morton, regent of Scotland during the minority of James VI, had a copy constructed from the Maiden which had been used in Halifax in Yorkshire. Ironically, Lord Morton fell from favour and was the first to experience the Maiden in Scotland!

Executions!
Another form of execution during Mary's reign was being burnt at the stake - a terrible punishment much used during the Spanish Inquisition. The English hated the Spanish and dreaded the idea of an English Inquisition. The executions during the reign of Bloody Mary were therefore viewed with a greater fear of the Spanish than the executions themselves - it is interesting to note that executions during her reign totalled less than 300 an insignificant amount compared to the executions ordered by her father King Henry VIII which are believed to have numbered tens of thousands! We recommend the following site for more facts and information about Bloody Mary

Mary Mary Quite Contrary: Origins and History

Mary Mary quite contrary,
How does your garden grow?
With silver bells and cockle shells
And pretty maids all in a row.

WHEWWWWW..ENOUGH; ENOUGH... Sad


I hope Tom D and Bootheel are not skipping today, and got their full dose of English Literature... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:29 pm

We're in like Flynn, and doin' to it like Pruitt used to do it.

Ring around the Rosy, Pockets full of posey, ashes ashes, we all fall down.

You all know what that one is about.
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:39 pm

Incidentally, I have studied Flynn, inquired on ashes, all I know of Pruitt is through the musings of McCall, of the Nitchnobotnia
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:53 pm

Of course we're skippin' today, it's Friday smokey. We're out in the mud and crud and cornfields where the Mari-ju-ana grows. Later on we're goin' to the Oldhomefillerupandkeepontruckin Cafe. We're lookin' for Mavis, she's built like a burlap sack fulla bobcats, she's got it To-gether.
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:41 pm

When I say a rock, I mean a ROCK, that thang ya got thar aint no bigger 'an a grapefruit.


Armed and ready TOM, great minds......great minds, I say
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Double B

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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:43 pm

I had a McCall cd in my truck several years ago when working 2 hours from home anyway the guy that was helping me could not get enough of it and after about 2 weeks I gave it to him if he promised to never bring it back to work. What good times we had I should pick another one up, I kinda miss it now.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:21 pm

I bought CW's greatest hits when I was about fourteen. (Maybe that explains why I was never very popular in school? scratch ) I took that tape everywhere, thru the college years. There's nothing like cruisin' the mountains of SW Colorado in an old beatup Jeep listening to CW sing Wolf Creek Pass and Silverton. Earl, let's mail a card to Mother, then truck them chickens on down t'other side.
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PostSubject: Re: What does a breed mean again?   Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:38 pm

Since we have fully gone off topic, Ring around the Rosey, was the Bubonic Plague, rash,,,,,,ashes, burning of the bodies. Better dodge that gopher hole smokey.
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