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 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:11 pm

Twin running around here as well...not too receptive, plenty stupid...not everything that comes out homozygous is good Sad
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:25 pm

Everyday is a winding road...Crowe
Farmer calls about a bull, I have one, hate his looks...he stops, hates his looks too...drive him through a group spring cows, calves,  we never get out of truck, 5 minutes,loves my cows, asks if I feed grain...back to house,  price next spring on those calves?  Probably 2100, semen ch, come next march to pick a bull...I already picked, I want number 6...then number 6 will be yours, handshake, 24 more to go...all do the same job as number 6...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:07 am

a little detour , just to sightsee ...

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tc



Posts : 76
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 67
Location : Moss,Tn

PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:29 am

MKeeney wrote:
Everyday is a winding road...Crowe
Farmer calls about a bull, I have one, hate his looks...he stops, hates his looks too...drive him through a group spring cows, calves,  we never get out of truck, 5 minutes,loves my cows, asks if I feed grain...back to house,  price next spring on those calves?  Probably 2100, semen ch, come next march to pick a bull...I already picked, I want number 6...then number 6 will be yours, handshake, 24 more to go...all do the same job as number 6...

You need to write a book on Bull buyers, all different buyers and excuses Mike! Some good reading I bet!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:04 pm

Travis, I don't know whether it would be closer to Grimm`s Fairy Tales,
or Fairy Grim Tales...but being a glutton for punishment, one more time, done the Tru-Line  way..
looking forward to it... cheers
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Mark Day



Posts : 238
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 51
Location : Russellville, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:37 pm

Mike - just consider those 25 bulls as 25 holes of golf and bull callers as swings and you will be just fine. Here's hoping you don't have any double bogeys.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:49 am

Golf`s a game you cannot win, all you can do is play...this is a game you cannot lose, I`ve already won enough
...it`s the registered con game that`s full of losers...
My favorite gal of 40 years retired from the pro shop yesterday...
I'm going to miss you girl,
That ready smile,
The listening ear ,
That twinkling eye,
The inquiring mind,
That knowing look
The give and take,
The laughter,
And joy you make...
I'll deal with it,
Knowing you've given,
More than your share,
Now it's your time
Though it troubles most,
If you're retired,
What does that make me ? Smile

Why does it take a minute to say hello and forever to say goodbye? ~Author Unknown

I really wanted to say, I knew you when you were young and sexy, but damn,
we both got old Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:15 am

to renew, and eschew complementarity and heterosis , that is the economic question ...that has two answers...


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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:41 am

point two needs revising to another possibility
with Tiechert influence...
2..a short breeding season {30 days} for the purebreds, crossbreed the failures for sustained commercial profit...
instead
2..a longer breeding season, purebred or crossbred, followed by a short calving season, sell the late calving, heavy pregnants for sustained commercial profit...
note...one set of bulls can breed all cows, saving time and money; forget about "reforming" the daughters of late calving cows by crossbreeding...




Based on the principles below, my "purebred breeding" way has evolved to...
"the principles of the successful breeder have been exceedingly simple. He isolates
and fixes a good type by careful selection and close breeding. The difficulty lies not
so much in knowing the principles as in applying them."
"in judging the value of a pedigree, it is, of course, important to give as much weight to the
inferior animals represented as to the champions. unfortunately, it is not possible to learn much
of the characteristics of any but the latter class. The rest of the pedigree consists merely of names.
A knowledge of the methods and ideals is of great assistance in giving substance to these names."
Sewell Wright circa 1920
I no longer rely on any names {pedigrees}, just a simple methodology of
1...a closed herd, selected with a MATERNAL priority, , the names become the same while making the
most informed selection, from your own experience and knowledge of YOUR own genepool..
2..a short breeding season {30 days} for the purebreds, crossbreed the failures for sustained commercial profit...
3..select bulls from the older cows, the "stayers" versus the "sprinters"; the cows with fewer problems
4..select bulls average to above herd average while avoiding outliers to maintain {not increase} the phenotypic production level of the purebred
5..use multiple young sires to breed "the herd to the herd" ; moderately increasing prepotency with generational turnover. A practical benefit is growing a yearling bull into a commercially preferred 2 yr old for sale
6..knowing "The proper cow size and type will automatically adapt to the environment that is provided" something
like the picture is becoming predominant
7..whatever epd levels evolve, they will be the form {level} that follows function, and I need know no more...neither
would the buyer who believes the selection program is paramount to predictability and functionality in maternal breeding...
8..if the growth of the crossbred progeny sired by select terminal bulls is not enough, then the cow environment must be
changed to accommodate more cow
9..time, not money, will be your most limiting factor; but it always has been for a breeder...
10..if the desired phenotypic level cannot be maintained from within the herd over a long span of time, the last resort
is to outcross with the same type and begin again using the same methodology...
11...be prepared to live on commercial dollars; few will appreciate your product, but some will...developing a market for
reality flies in the face of human nature...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:55 am

At some point don't you think shortening the breeding season is a real good way to run out of cattle? I like a short calving period too but when you get down to 30 or 21 days you are really only giving that cow one day to get bred in the year. Not sure my management is consistently good enough to facilitate that with a high degree of repeatability. What if the bull has an off day? Two cycles works for me but one cycle seems unnecessarily tough.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:03 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
At some point don't you think shortening the breeding season is a real good way to run out of cattle? I like a short calving period too but when you get down to 30 or 21 days you are really only giving that cow one day to get bred in the year. Not sure my management is consistently good enough to facilitate that with a high degree of repeatability. What if the bull has an off day? Two cycles works for me but one cycle seems unnecessarily tough.

45 seems better...will redo...I think my spring scenario means wintering extra cows ...that generally will pay it`s way...the open two carried to a fall calver is a big advantage we southerners have...in fact, nov and dec are the "fertility months" to breed here...if I changed everything to fall calving, opens would become a non-issue...but feed adjustment would Sad
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:12 am

Calving in Fall makes it easy to breed longer and keep extra females around on excess summer grass and then get rid of the "extras " during calving time based largely on when they calve. Seems to make more profit sense than selling opens or short breds. That has been my strategy past several years. Seems better too keeping a few extras and then shipping the ones that screw up calving. Just my thoughts.
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Danny Miller



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Age : 59
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:22 am

MKeeney wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
At some point don't you think shortening the breeding season is a real good way to run out of cattle? I like a short calving period too but when you get down to 30 or 21 days you are really only giving that cow one day to get bred in the year. Not sure my management is consistently good enough to facilitate that with a high degree of repeatability. What if the bull has an off day? Two cycles works for me but one cycle seems unnecessarily tough.

45 seems better...will redo...I think my spring  scenario means wintering extra cows ...that generally will pay it`s way...the open two carried to a fall calver is a big advantage we southerners have...in fact, nov and dec are the "fertility months" to breed here...if I changed everything to fall calving, opens would become a non-issue...but feed adjustment would Sad

Mike, you are spot on with your comments on fall calving (fertility months Nov. & Dec.) but then I realize you have been doing this longer than I have Very Happy  At the thirty day mark last year we had calved 150 of 180, no drugs, all natural service. Yes the feed adjustment is real but I have found I can graze a little longer due to the fact the cows here in the summer can stay in great condition while not lactating and don't consume the grass that a spring calving cow would. More forage to feed during the winter but an added benefit to bull customers who purchase bulls for spring calving. Six months older and can be used a little harder.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:15 am

If we just put our cows under more pressure, we could have great cattle like Pharo...I'm tired of buying to prove points to those who can't accept the proof once accumulated. ..
Lost another of the devoted customers yesterday, Joe Trumbo was 79...never bought Angus bulls elsewhere once he bought the first here. ..never bought them for the performance, but for the freedom of problems...had some limmy influence when he bought the first , so frame and top feeder steers were a given...but it was more personal than anything, Joe loved to visit and talk cattle...I always had to deliver the bulls, and talk some more...breeding may be art and science, but selling is a people business. .. all the old guys that depended on me are pretty much gone now, even Anette who admired Larry so ...all the young crowd are more scientifically advanced,  and far smarter than I...I was smart once, before I became older,wiser, and too damn independent to have to BS  to sell a bull...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:51 am

MKeeney wrote:
If we just put our cows under more pressure, we could have great cattle like Pharo...

Lots of cows being put under pressure here at the moment. A drier year, conventional grazing "management" and most peoples cows are a bag of bones as their grass was finished mid August. Hanging on hoping they can get to an October start date to the winter feeding program. Only thing "great" will be their winter feed bill getting these cows back in condition and through winter.
Just ran our cows through pulling bulls and vaccinating calves and the mature cows are touching both sides of the chute. The grass we grew in June will last us well through October - grazing management is the low hanging fruit that most can't see.

As for fall calving we are going that way too, November the best conception rate of the year. The realization coming only recently that all the talk about "calving the same time as the deer" ignores the fact that you get to choose between breeding the same time as the deer (November) or birthing same time as deer (June) not both. Who decided that the latter was the most important when breeding rate is the primary driver of cow herd profitability?
In our dry, cold climate the fall calvers don't take any more feed as we pretty much have to supply all their forage once we get deep snow regardless of when they calve. Fall calvers take less feed quality though once we start feeding them so have a useful fit here in terms of feed resources. Never get scour issues in fall calves nor pneumonia at weaning.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:22 pm

they call this grass nimblewill...should be ironwill; cattle and horses won`t eat it; not sure sheep...way too low for goats...sorry for the roundup...fescue reseeding soon...

I think lack of crop rotation, abundant moisture,  and stockpiling is letting  it spread rapidly...



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:11 am

another bull caller last night...I don`t think I`ve ever looked more forward to a sale; anxious to get this silage done,
calves weaned, and even going to weigh the bulls INDIVIDUALLY from the different sets of cows, noting the range of variation...
not for SELECTION purposes, but to prove a point...it doesn`t matter which bull, or which group, ALL have the same potential...
Should I have an auction and let you spend more foolish money to buy what you deem BEST when I know better? No, I won`t do
that to you...I`m the government of my affairs, and it won`t cost you more to help yourself, it will cost you less...

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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:55 am

MKeeney wrote:
they call this grass nimblewill...should be ironwill; cattle and horses won`t eat it; not sure sheep...way too low for goats...sorry for the roundup...fescue reseeding soon...

I think lack of crop rotation, abundant moisture,  and stockpiling is letting  it spread rapidly...





It does seem being understocked, no crop rotations (grass only), buying all hay and good rainfall creates a whole different set of problems. I have been seeing more types of weeds that cows won't eat than I recall seeing years ago.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:30 pm

An enjoyable brief {silage chopping} conversation today with a commercially oriented cattleman, a mere 26 yrs old...
imagine to be 26, and start now on the 10 point plan with your maternal gene pool cattle, and see if you can make it fail
over the next 50 yrs...nutrition in a pill is more likely to be the culprit than the failure of the genetics imo...none the less,
there is an escape clause in the plan...you wont be exiled to Alcatraz, except when you try to compete in the marketplace with
your genetics versus the traditional BS...there`s a WARNING LABEL included in the plan, prepare to live {and flourish}
on commercial dollars...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:25 am

I think I screwed up spraying and re-seeding...cows may handle this situation, we`ll see in time...

This grass commonly known as Nimblewill has sure invaded several of our pastures, I don't quite
know why, moisture, grazing intervals, stockpiling, over grazing ? Anyhow, it is deemed bad , summer
perennial stuff, with no grazing species liking it, and no real means of control by agronomist and cohorts
So having never attended one of these grazing conferences, I just held my own impromptu this morning
as the fields dried a bit...I thought cows might be the most qualified to display their experiences, so I just
sat a bit.. yelp, occasional ladino clover was the perference, fescue blades ok, but I saw plenty of Nimblewill
grass being eaten...some pulled out by the roots , a shallow rooted grass, spread by stolons...and the cows
condition seemed the most worthy of testament to " hey , Mike, everything's cool."...replenished by seed,
I think we'll just graze this stuff into the ground after weaning, and let nature take its course...hopefully,
there's always a next year to try a different approach...grass ,that is, the cow breeding program stays the same...





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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:18 pm

You might? Wink be a terminal breeder if your bull is 6 frame and weighs 2400 lb...size alone would
suggest that to me, putting a creep feeder in the pasture in July would confirm it...and that's ok,
as long as corn fed beef is in demand, we need cattle that can utilize corn in a feed lot efficiently and profitably...
But as long as there's land whose best long term use is to grow grass, there'll be a need for our
kind of cow pictured below that can convert grass to calf, reproduce regularly, and renew the
maternal gene pool she evolved from ..without corn or supplements...and know what it means
to be evaluated as a mother instead as a piece of meat...
Our maternal selection paradigm seems to be working without all the traditional habits; this type
pair is seen more often; I cannot compare them to any cattle except what was here previously;
slowly and simply we progress...not to change the best, but to make the rest match the best...80% there imo...
Larry loved the quote " To make the simple complicated is commonplace; to make the complicated
simple, awesomely simple; that`s creativity " I`m not creative at all; I'm just following the breeding
plan Larry had evolved to; with a couple of personal extensions...Nature is the creator; I`m just limiting her choices...

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:58 am

you have a registered herd?

no, beyond registered, PUREBRED...
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Danny Miller



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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:41 am

MKeeney wrote:
you have a registered herd?

no, beyond registered, PUREBRED...

Smile Cool cheers
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:24 am

How do you like me now ,
Now that you've seen my dad,
If you thought I was pretty good,
I bet you think he's pretty bad...
Can you learn to like a purebred,
Way beyond the common core ,
Bred to build greater consistency,
Rather than a picture to adore ?
Purity and prepotency are rarely pretty
So few ever make the parent stock ,
I usually just show the progeny,
And hide daddy out in the back lot...



Last edited by MKeeney on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: 2018 Keeney Angus Top 25 Bull Sale   Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:13 am

Pretty good.
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