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 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale

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EddieM



Posts : 976
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:36 am

So many discuss fertility in terms of reproduction and it is a key element of livestock profitability and function. But the brass ring for linebreeding is predictable replication via the fertility. You and I both have had animals that were one in a million and they stayed one in a million because they could not transmit themselves well into the next generations. So we keep some so-so sons and daughters and hope of the grand-"chillen" to be the reappearance of the grand old patron or the grand old matron. It sometimes happens and often times does not. To sell the efforts we picture the old cow or a son or a daughter that prove that deep down in the genes there are good things to possibly come from our frustrating efforts. As often said here, a picture is a frozen point in time of both time and linebreeding programs.

Bonsma had the type in mind, in detail, and I assume that ever year was a sorting year to get the right ones back in the heifer or weaned bull pen for next year. Or else the search outside his efforts had the same criteria of type. Larry moved that bar up in that he sought replicators to increase the keepers and decrease the cull rate. I assume, from other's comments and his own writings, he never achieved the wide plateau.

Maybe I bear scars and maybe I hate to waste time, but I see a huge expectation of cull rates in the start up of linebreeding programs if we are hoping for some success in one lifetime. About the best anyone could do is start at least 6 lines and expect one to make it or some where around the 15% success rate of replication. I am dealing with sheep in much that way and have a sell sheet now to move sheep that are good but just not going 100% where I am headed. Take unimproved animals, an unproven animal or animals with unknown status, apply selection pressure and the inheritance rate of traits will put the males as easier to select because the inheritance rates on terminal type traits are 3X the rates of the female/fertility type traits. That should not surprise us that males look the part sooner than the females. Where I begin to see a line in the sand is when the females do not solidly replicate what I have seen in past generations much less a tad better.

Probably not positive enough but the word from here on Saturday.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 909
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:35 am

My selections/experiences have maybe been a bit different to yours Eddie. I like the picture of the old granny cow and would like that to be what her successors replicate but I don't select on phenotype. My herd really comprises 3 parts or three degrees of linebreeding. The core of the herd is sons of the original cow bred to female descendants of the same cow. That's where all the bulls used in the herd come from. Next stage out is progeny of other Luing cows I bought originally - with time they are becoming closer bred and closer related to the core group. Third group was graded up from commercial Red Angus type cows. Up until now I've basically bred all the females big enough from the 3 groups - if they work as cows they stay if they don't they go - I've done no selection on phenotype as I wouldn't know where to start and haven't generally had the numbers. Bull selection has been using progeny off all the different cows in that core group in turn with little selection other than favouring reds over yellows.

My results to date on the female side have surprised me - the drop out rates have been worst in the grade-up origin part and least in the tightest bred core group. That is counter intuitive to me but I'm taking it as a sign that there is some engrained goodness in the core group. Cull rate has not been excessive although our relocation across the country has cost us quite a lot of cows. The herd looks great this spring so hopefully after 2 years we are largely through the transition.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:59 am

Eddie, what defines a line ? is a cow family by common definition a "line"?
tom burke has been sick...I find this post to tom from dave Nichols quite revealing...
Don't you go and die on us... You've still got a lot of work to do to make the Angus breed better than ever.

It`s been a long and winding road that brought this calf to my pasture,
but the genetic path has been straight and narrow...
Great memories seeing every sire in the company of the conceptualist ...
from bottom right, proceeding up, then bottom left, up
born, then relocated,
1981-WY
1983-WY , KY
2001-MT...took a long time to find a breeder bold enough to trust an unknown
2006-MT, SD
2014-KY , not pictured , the most highly inbred, small and ugly; similar to corn parent lines
2017- KY , one of three baby bull calves casting the same shadow and same anticipated gene migration...
The Journey Continues...

5 pictures

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1407515002629194&set=pcb.1407515069295854&type=3&theater
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:59 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
My selections/experiences have maybe been a bit different to yours Eddie. I like the picture of the old granny cow and would like that to be what her successors replicate but I don't select on phenotype. My herd really comprises 3 parts or three degrees of linebreeding. The core of the herd is sons of the original cow bred to female descendants of the same cow. That's where all the bulls used in the herd come from. Next stage out is progeny of other Luing cows I bought originally - with time they are becoming closer bred and closer related to the core group. Third group was graded up from commercial Red Angus type cows. Up until now I've basically bred all the females big enough from the 3 groups - if they work as cows they stay if they don't they go - I've done no selection on phenotype as I wouldn't know where to start and haven't generally had the numbers. Bull selection has been using progeny off all the different cows in that core group in turn with little selection other than favouring reds over yellows.

My results to date on the female side have surprised me - the drop out rates have been worst in the grade-up origin part and least in the tightest bred core group. That is counter intuitive to me but I'm taking it as a sign that there is some engrained goodness in the core group. Cull rate has not been excessive although our relocation across the country has cost us quite a lot of cows. The herd looks great this spring so hopefully after 2 years we are largely through the transition.

cheers
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RobertMac



Posts : 399
Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:16 am

GF, a bit of advice, be a little more forgiving regarding the functionality of your core-group cows. These are the genetics you have chosen to build your herd from. The move will have an effect on them.

I feel like I made mistakes selling foundation cattle too quick.
Like you, I don't breed for a type, but let functionality define the type.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 909
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:40 pm

RobertMac wrote:
GF, a bit of advice, be a little more forgiving regarding the functionality of your core-group cows. These are the genetics you have chosen to build your herd from. The move will have an effect on them.

I feel like I made mistakes selling foundation cattle too quick.
Like you, I don't breed for a type, but let functionality define the type.

More forgiving how? Keep females that are open another year? I don't want to do that I have bills to pay, besides the core group of the herd has suffered less from the move than the others. I did give about 15 cows a six month break last year as I'm expanding my fall calving herd and wanted to tighten up the spring calving period again. Of the 15 only 1 was from my core group. I've culled very few from the core, tighter bred end of the herd since we moved and I haven't regretted one of them as the ones that went were outliers to the fat/low production/low fertility end of the spectrum.
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:01 pm

MK wrote:
Eddie, what defines a line ? is a cow family by common definition a "line"?
The population designated for that project. Some tight, some breeding up, some outcross and come back with the line, some paternal based, some matron based, ... Sort of a read the tea leaves and keep walking the path effort. Got to have a vision or two along the way. Or stop for a cup of coffee. The term "cow family" is like "all American" - over-used and under-defined. Each individual does different, nicks, or doesn't, too tight shows up on inbreeding, ... keep on rollin' with the flow.

I cannot replicate others (but can learn) as I cannot duplicate the gene arrangements or the environments. So it is what is here and how they do or don't do. I can live with that.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:59 pm

I have no genetic lines; just parameters, and they are kinda fuzzy...
what do your sheep do better than others in the breed?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:34 am

MKeeney wrote:
I have no genetic lines; just parameters, and they are kinda fuzzy...
what do your sheep do better than others in the breed?
More predictable and defined with minimal care.

RM wrote:
be a little more forgiving regarding the functionality of your core-group cows. These are the genetics you have chosen to build your herd from. The move will have an effect on them.
Saw a research article some years ago that it took 4 to 5 years for some adults to fully adjust to a new environment. That is a long and expensive wait. Clemson U imported some Iowan Suffolks down to do a fescue study. I doubt that after 4 years they will have any left. I saw them months after arrival, all huddled under shade structures at mid morning with great annuals to graze if they could stand the sun and humidity to graze. Got home and took a picture at 2 PM with full sun and ours were out grazing whatever so-so permanent grasses we had to offer. You don't see many polar bears at the equator even on National Geographic specials.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:51 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
GF, a bit of advice, be a little more forgiving regarding the functionality of your core-group cows. These are the genetics you have chosen to build your herd from. The move will have an effect on them.

I feel like I made mistakes selling foundation cattle too quick.
Like you, I don't breed for a type, but let functionality define the type.

More forgiving how? Keep females that are open another year? I don't want to do that I have bills to pay, besides the core group of the herd has suffered less from the move than the others. I did give about 15 cows a six month break last year as I'm expanding my fall calving herd and wanted to tighten up the spring calving period again. Of the 15 only 1 was from my core group. I've culled very few from the core, tighter bred end of the herd since we moved and I haven't regretted one of them as the ones that went were outliers to the fat/low production/low fertility end of the spectrum.

remember Robert has Beefmasters, bad feet and crappy udders are unlikely caused by moving from Texas to KY...
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:53 am

[quote="EddieM"]
MKeeney wrote:
I have no genetic lines; just parameters, and they are kinda fuzzy...
what do your sheep do better than others in the breed?

More predictable and defined with minimal care.

WHAT % $ over lb market price for rams?

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:26 pm

MKeeney wrote:
EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I have no genetic lines; just parameters, and they are kinda fuzzy...
what do your sheep do better than others in the breed?

More predictable and defined with minimal care.

WHAT % $ over lb market price for rams?

It depends on expressed quality or known background of the individual, sire and dam. This is how it goes:

The buyer shows up, I pull a crystal ball from behind the truck seat, drop the tail gate after parking in the shade, put the ball on a magic empty feed bag to keep manure off of the sacred base of the "ball of all knowledge" and begin to envision the price for the particular beast at hand. The face of Tom B. appears and says "Stop the sale, stop the sale. Now wait a minute folks these prices should be higher, higher, there's only one like this left in the sale and you brought a trailer to take something home...", the scene fades into an arena filled with green sawdust and there I see art work, a fat heifer and see folks bidding wildly to get their picture in the AJ. Then a hand appears, I see it opening my mailbox and putting GAR, SAV, fly-less farao and Express catalogs in for me to see the greatness of masterful breeders selling their bestest for the mostest. Finally, out of the haze of the 4 color catalogs and the pictures of great old cull cows, and drifting ever bigger and bigger, I see a golden dollar sign moving towards me followed by numbers, those magic numbers, those necessary numbers, that only a magic ball in the shade of an oak can provide.

There are sheep here that cannot be bought. That would be what I think is the top end I need to keep to work with. I have no EPDs or EBVs to boggle my mind or impress others. Sheep are expected to be more do-all (to a limit of breed type) than cattle in my way of thinking but that is just me. I also know what the original imports were like to start the breed and that is the goalpost; No more and no less. I'm headed there. I have tracked genetic trends in ewes, I have done the same in rams but I lean more towards the ewes. Rams are expected to wean OK from ewes that have a strong tendency to twin. The ewes are expected to lamb out even sized lambs at birth that are nursing within about 15 to 20 minutes of birth. Lambs should have almost even weaning weights from a ewe. The first time I touch a lamb is generally at weaning. Ram lambs have to grow continually for their first 12 to 15 months. They need proper scrotal development and growth, they need average or better muscling for their group via manual evaluation and they need good health and vigor. Ewe lambs are expected to lamb at 12 months without assistance to restart the cycle. Nobody gets wormed or feet trimmed or else they hit the road as culls. As mentioned in another post, there is a history for me in notes and data that tracks replication and also reproduction.

Prices can range from market value to 3 or 4 times market value depending on the ram. Very few sell for 3X and very, very few sell for 4X. Those generally are proven or I know the lines well enough to feel honest in those prices. In time, the ratios of market prices for some will probably go higher as predictability increases.

Bump up lamb survival in the SE USA by some percentage and there is immediate profit to others for using the breed. Bump up the efficiency of the commercial ewe flock by retaining daughters and there is delayed by expected profit to others. Increase muscling by a few % on HCW/LW without impacting ewe productivity and there is profit to others. Don't worm and don't bury wormy sheep and there is profit to others.

I'm merely a building block on the path to profit.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:11 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Victorio says he is worming some...I was not aware of that,  ...obviously, many cattlemen are breeding decent stock and selling them for too little compared to raising steers, and I'm tired of being one of them...

further thought 3 x for a ram isn't much premium per transaction...
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:52 am

We have a cattle show here every day; the fitter is grass; the judge is nature; and the winner may not adhere to the form currently in vogue...in fact, since this is a real show, and the other is "fake news", I will guarantee it...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1413913251989369&set=a.944830912230941.1073741827.100001121223406&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:05 am

Tru-line is not about making Angus great again; it is about making more profit for commercia beel producers...with a shot of lutalyse on the fourth day after turning bulls out, our 50 heifers this year had 10 days to get bred in three identified groups to our calving ease, maternal Angus bull prospects, and 21 more days to a multi-sire group of Beefmaster bulls bred by Watt Casey continuing ongoing experiments with crossing linebred populations for complimentararity. ..on second thought, we are improving the Angus breed, we just aren't making the Angus Association richer...

2 pics


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1414962021884492&set=pcb.1414966018550759&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:30 pm

I only wanted to get your attention
But you over looked me somehow
Besides you had too many bulls to mention
maybe I pawed the ground and bellowed too loud
How do you like me now

How do you like me now
Now that I'm on my way
Do you think I'm "not enough bull" standing here today
I couldn't make you love me
But I always dreamed about living permanently in your pasture
{ps...more grass and no ponds}
How do you like me now?

I by chance saw a bull along the road I sold to a Nancy neighbor for $2500
after breeding heifers two years;
superior CE, nice daughters...yeah, I wouldn`t mind having him back...but, there`s still a lot of bulls ...Smile

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1416188051761889&set=a.944830912230941.1073741827.100001121223406&type=3&theater
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:39 am

If you don't get bred in 30 days for a purebred, a bull from Faraway Cattle Company could be close by...LL envisioned pre-tested line crossing, that's way beyond my scope, and perhaps the scope of quantitative genetic reality...I do it for the fun of seeing what could be, and for the commercial profit...buying bulls from John Dellinger keeps such experiments economically profitable. ..

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1417780968269264&set=a.948548291859203.1073741834.100001121223406&type=3&theater
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:24 am

When close breeding { full sibs e.g.}, Faith is the substance of progeny hoped for, previously experienced, but not currently seen in the parent...this close bred creation is a remnant of a past mating paradigm no longer practiced, for the buying public has too little faith or experience in looking at the regressed parent and seeing the restoration of phenotype in progeny when outcrossed or diluted...It can be added that failing to recognize the unsustainable heterosis effect of outcrossed and crossbred bulls, oft called composites, is an example of Blind Faith .
2 pics...may or may not link...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1418761678171193&set=pcb.1418754181505276&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1418762031504491&set=pcb.1418754181505276&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:49 am

We just followed your desire for independence Henry, and nearing the end of the path, it looks like this...

3 pics
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1421169697930391&set=pcb.1421171534596874&type=3&theater
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:14 am

Out, out brief candle of sunlight that blemishes the pic of this model cow...this cow was unnoticed before, though the tag says a daughter of 6309a...too bad she's not registered so AAA could do a dna profile as the model to compare the population against...I would be curious to know her homozygousity level since a nice bull calf followed her to water, greater confidence that she and he will concentrate the genes of this prototype here, creating greater prepotency to fix problems in commercial cowherds elsewhere...

1 pic
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1422645231116171&set=a.948548291859203.1073741834.100001121223406&type=3&theater



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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:29 am

While reminiscing about college glory days, I separated 4 heifers into the sunlight, and I thought of how differently I appraised them now compared to fifty years ago...{hey Bill Able , are you coming to the 50 yr reunion of three farm boys and three city girls that you built something resembling a judging team from? SE Champions! Smile }
....As I remember, then we spoke only in terminal terms; longer, taller, thicker, more growth, heavier muscled { many still only think and talk terminally; but with epds the language } then we would toss in more feminine , in summation, an ideal feedlot/carcass steer with a heifer head; if such ever existed...
...but now my official reasons would be...I place this class of heifers "as all good enough and in ten years, I`ll tell you the winner "...well, the winner of commercial cow production, but it will take another ten years to determine the breeding cow winner, for the breeding cow must TRANSMITT her attributes to the next generation to have value as a breeding animal...I`ve seen enough of those rare genetic combinations that by chance come together; e.g. the small cow raising the big purebred calf, to know such rarities are not sustainable from one generation to another...LL named them "carrots"...and we`ve all seen the biggest, highest performing heifer turn out to be a total dud as a cow.
Most investors in the registered business don`t have 20 years to be a breeder; they need instant popularity and adulation; they can buy that, but they can never buy what we have; it can only be created over TIME...
if Ronnie Milsap was lost in the fifties, I suppose I`m lost in the 80`s...
" Injecting outside blood into a proven, attested, selected genetic pattern is a crime of the same enormity as a burglar`s breaking into one`s home and leaving furniture, fixtures, and precious keepsakes in a state of utter disarray "
Lingle, circa 1981

4 PICS
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Scott Shively, I may not always agree with WHAT you say, but I always love HOW you say it...Smile since the below is both, I added a cautionary pic to your post Smile
Scott quote...As for myself I will continue to breed my Angus in artisan fashion believing no bull can have too many good cows in his pedigree. Further I believe that average production cattle serve the commercial industry better than those chosen for their extreme features. I believe that if you look and think deep enough maternal selection brings no detrimental effect to the beef consumers enjoy.
Breeding livestock is never easy but yet can be easier if we avoid all the changing, fads and extremes. The scientific breeders have had more than 25 years to improve the breed with their biggest accomplishment being damaging fertility and longevity. In a system relatively devoid of measuring inputs all this monkey business means very little. More production usually means more problems.
{great conclusion coming !!!...mk }
A little time in the wilderness might be more fruitful than spending all of our time at the circus. Most of what I have learned about breeding Angus has either been in the company of lonely men or alone at Oak Lane. If Single Step and Genomics are a better mousetrap I will just keep on putting up with the cat. end quote
We Scott, are the mice...and we have gotten smarter and rich enough to make steak from the daughters of these $Mousetrap bulls so the daughters never ever need to be fertile or live past two

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1429828163731211&set=p.1429828163731211&type=3&theater&notif_t=like&notif_id=1499823469684949
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:02 pm

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