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 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sun May 14, 2017 9:43 pm

EddieM wrote:
Would EPD and current bovine genetic testing data be permissible as undeniable evidence in a court of law?

Of all the sparring that you and Larry did, what were the major topics and who won?

with no need for certification , Fire and Ice...no concession ever made... take that back, he agreed with me for a day, before backtracking Smile

science and industry use on my side; illusion{meaning anti seemed logical} and registered sentiment on his side...{many of which are practitioners of fire and ice matings; within the registry, of course Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Wink np, except the hypocrisy...
Since LL and I ended up with about the same methodology of closed herd selection letting inbreeding find its own level, no big deal ...

Line of Demarcation is the official nomenclature associated with the methodology Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon May 15, 2017 9:39 pm

WOW...Miss USA takes me back many years to a new version of Angela Davis...



A nuclear scientist who championed women in STEM in many of her answers, McCullough was asked during the Q&A portion
whether healthcare was a right or a privilege. 
“I’m definitely going to say it’s a privilege,” she said. “As a government employee, I’m granted health care and I see firsthand that for one to have health care, you need to have jobs.”
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue May 16, 2017 7:29 am

I finally caught a decent pic of one of the inbreds mentioned in the old cow repost below. ..this two yr old represents flawless phenotypic functionality for us, sorry the pic does not display the perfect teat and udder that all 6 full sibs possess. This is not a step back in time to some nostalgic " when Angus were Aberdeen Angus" but instead a product of time, evaluation , and enhanced prepotency of characteristics ( not just for pedigree admiration ). With three full sib brothers ready to breed cows this year, the genepool will be tweaked for a little less milk, maintainence of stature, and to bring a few unexpected and problematic outliers of previous matings back to the perferred maternal middle.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1360321957348499&set=a.948548291859203.1073741834.100001121223406&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue May 16, 2017 8:06 am

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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Fri May 19, 2017 7:59 am

These bulls were bred for eatin' ,
And that's just what they'll do,
One of these days these bulls
Are going to eat all over you...
Start eatin' bulls Smile
Tru-line was never about one kind doing everything best...as great an appreciation and need for these top 5% $B bulls as the cows WE breed that convert grass to calf yearly...
Maybe we should write...
Jack Spratt couldn't make it on grass,
and his wife didn't need any corn ,
So they both got together,
and a new way of thinking was born...



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1364325326948162&set=pcb.1364348273612534&type=3&theater



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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat May 20, 2017 9:50 pm

He bellows and he paws, you and he both know he`s a bull, nimble as a cat and harmless as a church mouse,
You can come home again as a 3 yr old, if you prove your worth in the pasture...
He will breed heifers here this year...thx Ralph Quillin, for the heifer ce proof , buy back ,and the support over many years...
Happy brewing, hope to see you at Howard Ranch-Idaho
,in July...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1367855583261803&set=a.948548291859203.1073741834.100001121223406&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue May 23, 2017 8:09 am

A fellow breeder and I were discussing tweaking the milk lower on some Angus maternal linebreds; questioning if we knew of a bull within the prepotent genepool to accomplish the feat...and I was reminded of this Watt Casey Beefmaster pair that just astounds me. Hard to believe this Feb calf could be growing so well , slick and shiny, on spring grass and what appears to be little milk, but surely plenty...
I know little about the Beefmaster breed, but she appears to be an exception among my few cows...what's possible doesn't impress me unless we can make it probable, but it does amaze me...maybe I'm too easy amazed because I've too limited experience


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1369234076457287&set=pcb.1369243896456305&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue May 23, 2017 8:11 am

Larry started writing The History of the Shoshone X-Strain of the Angus Breed late winter about 2008-9; Spring crop season caught up quickly, and the project, barely begun, was discarded until the next winter. As the cold set in the next winter, he mentioned he might work on it again, and finally with my encouragement and poor proofing skills, he decided to begin with the statement "awww Hell, might as well write it all down, if it finally proves to be a failure, at least there will be a record of How Not to Do It Smile
We worked our first set of spring calves on the four year olds today. The only calves below the Line of Demarcation { phenotypic cutoff whether by poor performance or inbreeding regression } were the calves born after the first 30 days of the calving season {mostly crossbreds; and most will catch up}...so I could not be happier with the progress and the ease and cost of that improvement...groups yet to be worked look the same...obviously the purebred value Line of Demarcation is not the quality, but how many non-traditionally produced maternal seedstock one can merchandize in an industry where good, better, and best is actually big, bigger, and biggest...
So no , while we still make plenty of little mistakes, overall , as my Dad used to say, "it all comes out in the wash"...and so the coveralls , though a little worn, look bright and shiny for another go around of new bulls from within the herd, for the same purpose, expecting the same results...
The greatest mistake was not arriving at this selection method sooner, and the bigger question will always remain...had I been exposed to this new paradigm of breeding earlier, would I have listened?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1370475719666456&set=a.944830912230941.1073741827.100001121223406&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed May 24, 2017 8:59 pm

rainy days {2.5 in} and Wednesday`s don`t get me down; mid -week recovery ...for me and the grass... cheers
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed May 24, 2017 9:27 pm

I don`t think I ever had what it takes to make millions playing golf...Smile

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUW2r5Kg0qD/

if this is a warmup, what does a workout consist of?
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue May 30, 2017 7:48 am

AND so did LL...

"I was once asked, at a journalism conference, how I defined my job. I said: My job is to write the exact same thing between 50 and 100 times a year in such a way that neither my editors nor my readers will ever think I am repeating myself. That's because good advice rarely changes, while markets change constantly. The temptation to pander is almost irresistible. And while people need good advice, what they want is advice that sounds good." -- Jason Zweig
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:10 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:18 am

The last 50 calves were processed yesterday in 72 degree temps with a cool morning breeze; the pods on this farm
vary some, but a set of prepotent multiple yearling sires can still make peas...
Prepotency is dismissed as old school by the number crowd; after all, ALL their terminal product gets eaten, a demand
for all the variation, some at differing prices, until the least becomes the most etc...but variation in a set of replacement
heifers is a culling disaster...
If numbers have replaced prepotency, then there is no need for breeds...all Tru-line attempts to do, is make more consistent
and predictable breeds and outcomes, most importantly in the maternal segment where "numbers" have yet to define the most
profitable cow...
Were there any "number standards" for the ideal cow forthcoming from the recent BIF meeting? Can you imagine how lost a KY
producer is with a cowherd following recommendations to AI to bulls he`s never seen, raised in ND, from cows that never functioned
except as a donor in a feedlot, based on numbers that don`t apply?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1390903104290384&set=a.948548291859203.1073741834.100001121223406&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:28 pm

mvcatt wrote:
Larry,
I was wondering if you noticed any change in your cattle after you stopped registering them? I guess there are a couple of ways to look at it. Like most parents who want their children to aspire to greatness, maybe your herd went through some sort of depression knowing their kids would do nothing more than contribute to the lowly commercial segment. Or maybe with the pressure off of them, they actually performed better. No more restless nights worrying if they were going to get culled for their low YW epd's. "Well let's see I've had 15 calves and my $EN is pretty high, I sure hope he keeps me around another year".

I'm pretty sure the cattle never changed after the registrations stopped. I'm pretty sure the direction of the breeder never changed after the registrations stopped. The problem is how everyone else perceived the cattle and the breeder. But rather than question everyone else...we question the cattle and the breeder.

MV...proud to be part of this group who isn't everyone else. cheers


a gem of a rediscovered post...;
the last ten sale bulls head west today...some Fenley sons present and brought back home will be going to Arkansas come fall...maybe Pete...more bulls next spring...

comments from the customers....
1.The calves by your bulls are better than those by the IA test station winner...
2. Seen your calves? ans...they are tremendous
3. the half blood KA cows are such an improvement over that mainstream shit...

4...recent discussion group reminders...milk did not regress when LL  inbred, there is no need here to go outside, I think correction
DOES exist in individuals...
...picture proof coming...

structural faults become as prepotent as strengths, and outcrossing will not create restore correctness...

observation from discussion, and above...Pedigrees create prejudice which impede progress...

the 11 point plan, or was it 10, proven in the pasture daily...

hay is cheap, grass is in excess, and a customer needs 40 cows I don`t have...neither doesn`t anyone else in KY,
the only good cows in KY outside the tru-line effort have occurred by chance...
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:29 am

If you think making a living in the shade is hard, try taking pictures of black cows in the shade {good enough for the 4 who care Smile }...nonetheless, just for the friends with whom I`ve discussed where do we go to tweak this sometimes excessive milk level without bringing in new problems through the back door...the answer is pretty easy, "look around, and she`ll be there" first pic...second pic, her bull calf to spread the characteristics through the herd...he`s got his head down, kinda unusual for a pose, but not unusual for cattle that grow on grass...
a "you might be"...
if your cow`s heads keep slipping backwards out of the head catch, you might be a terminal breeder Smile

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1395392727174755&set=pcb.1395396897174338&type=3&theater
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:23 am

MKeeney wrote:
If you think making a living in the shade is hard, try taking pictures of black cows in the shade {good enough for the 4 who care Smile }...nonetheless, just for the friends with whom I`ve discussed where do we go to tweak this sometimes excessive milk level without bringing in new problems through the back door...the answer is pretty easy, "look around, and she`ll be there" first pic...second pic, her bull calf to spread the characteristics through the herd...he`s got his head down, kinda unusual for a pose, but not unusual for cattle that grow on grass...
a "you might be"...
if your cow`s heads keep slipping backwards out of the head catch, you might be a terminal breeder Smile

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1395392727174755&set=pcb.1395396897174338&type=3&theater

The LL "I visualize the pedigree as cows in a pen" thing is as valid as ever here, though I know not a single name, sire or number, absolutely no reason to, except to
accommodate traditional thoughtlessness ...but I bet "the line of demarcation " has near eliminated "the same cow will appear more than once" part...
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:29 am

Pretty funny watching hypocrites argue over the color specs that determine a breed...I'll make my breed based on economic traits of INDUSTRY need rather than contrived con games based on color
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:56 am

977...4 photos on link
Golf instructors teach that the golf swing is built from the ground up, so are maternal cattle rather than from the carcass rail down...
It`s not really in our breeding plan to keep many 8 yr old bulls around, but I keep finding cows for this 6309a son that fixes a lot of problems
and causes none; I get rather sentimental about goodness...he's been from KY to SD and back , and sons are working in several Tru-line inspired
maternal herds over a wide geographical area of diverse environment where fewer problems , and less culling creates increased commercial profit...
I see AAA has instituted a scoring program; where ever there is a program; there is a problem...I agree with seasoned breeder`s comment that
scoring yearling bulls is useless...or has it really gotten that bad?

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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:01 am

miss the old guy, guess you could say he is why I am a believer today. wished I could find the picture of my 1.5 year old grandson riding him, coward of the county till breeding time. this lines best asset is brains. I have 4 and 5 year old sons of 977, full brothers, this will be their last year here. time for the grandsons and great grandsons to step up.
semen checked today, had to move the bulls and was bored. what a waste of time. why I put myself or the bulls at risk, will not happen again.

Mike I hope you still give him a scratch now and then.
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:07 am

larkota wrote:
miss the old guy,  guess you could say he is why I am a believer today. wished I could find the picture of my 1.5 year old grandson riding him,  coward of the county till breeding time.  this lines best asset is brains.   I have 4 and 5 year old sons of 977, full brothers,  this will be their last year here.  time for the grandsons and great grandsons to step up.
semen checked today, had to move the bulls and was bored.  what a waste of time. why I put myself or the bulls at risk, will not happen again.

Mike I hope you still give him a scratch now and then.

he stood there for a rubbing while I took the close-ups...loaded him in the trailer out in the middle of his bull lot to go to cows...your other KA project, the Encore -Bob granddau
continues to reap acclaim...I let that ugly duckling son go much too soon; daughters are beauties...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:40 am


My 8 year old. The initial mating of my line-breeding program, his mother was 20 when he was conceived.  Created more daughters with less problems than any bull I've ever used before. Well balanced phenotypically to my eye, still gets a 96% semen check every year and his cow group invariably has the best breed up. Worth every cent of his $2500 value.


A double grandson who will be entering service this year. Slicker hair-coat and less extreme than anything I've kept before.


"Form Follows Function..."? - managing my land and grass using cattle to recreate the effect of the buffalo has maybe gone too far in this yellow 4 year old? The 8 year old is to the left in this picture.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:19 pm

Are you selecting the bulls based on the dams, I assume. Did the parents of the double grandson look similar to the base stock or desired type? Any idea why the yellow bull went to one end of the phenotypic bell curve? Are bull 1 and 3 close kin? Are you willing to give up mass in the bulls to get the cows to be more towards frail or dairy type? Just trying to get a big picture.
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:47 pm

EddieM wrote:
Are you selecting the bulls based on the dams, I assume.  Did the parents of the double grandson look similar to the base stock or desired type?  Any idea why the yellow bull went to one end of the phenotypic bell curve?  Are bull 1 and 3 close kin?  Are you willing to give up mass in the bulls to get the cows to be more towards frail or dairy type?  Just trying to get a big picture.

I've just been keeping the bulls out of daughters, now grand daughters and beyond of the one old cow I started with. I have 2 "bull lines" both sons of the same old cow by different sires. The first bull I pictured is one of those sons. This was his older brother Solomon.



He was more to the terminal side and his daughters have not been as good. That is basically my system though - expand the female base by breeding daughters off one bull line to bulls of the other. Very, very close breeding but I'm happy with the way it's gone given how limited our starting pool was. I find it fascinating the range of variation within this tight genepool from the real big gutted belly dragger cows to the finer more dairy like types. I can see now that we are working within definite parameters in terms of type though although here the individual phenotype pops up from is sometimes surprising. The mother of the double grandson is a finer more dairy like type but neither of her parents were. There are more and more family similarities popping up - a heifer that doesn't look particularly like its mother but is the image of an aunt etc.

So bull 3 is a grandson of the Solomon bull pictured above. Solomon is the 8 year old's half brother (same dam) so that is how they are connected. Funny enough the yellow bull's sire was this Solomon son which the KC visitors saw running with heifers and a few cows.



I thought he was a "more maternal type" but he is the one real disappointment I've had. He is out of a full sister of the 8 year old bull. Just bred small frail females and small fine bulls with these huge neck crests once they mature. The picture of the yellow bull I posted this morning is deceptive he is a fine boned, fairly small framed bull with poor testicle development. Maybe 2/3 the size of the 8 year old. That is par for the course for that side of the "family" thus far. Definitely a weaker side and a stronger side in my 2 bull family system.
I'm trying to steer things away from types that are too extreme. I want to keep away from real small framed cattle, slow maturing ones, heavy haired cattle, and ones that have too much beef (= terminal).
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:06 pm

Some cow types for you Eddie.


My foundation cow, pictured at 19 but she went on to rear her last calf at 23.


Her double grand-daughter. A cow with huge capacity, she weighed 1600lbs in her prime but still not a big framed cow. This picture would be @age 9. Rearing twins this year at 13.


Daughter of the above by the chunky Solomon bull. Overly fat type.


A finer, more feminine daughter by the 8 year old bull - this is the mother of the "double grandson bull" in the earlier post. She looks finer than this in person.

And another bull - full brother to the plain yellow bull in the earlier post so uncle to the yellow buffalo bull. Again a small bull.
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PostSubject: Re: 2017 Keeney Angus Bull Sale   Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:36 am

So many discuss fertility in terms of reproduction and it is a key element of livestock profitability and function. But the brass ring for linebreeding is predictable replication via the fertility. You and I both have had animals that were one in a million and they stayed one in a million because they could not transmit themselves well into the next generations. So we keep some so-so sons and daughters and hope of the grand-"chillen" to be the reappearance of the grand old patron or the grand old matron. It sometimes happens and often times does not. To sell the efforts we picture the old cow or a son or a daughter that prove that deep down in the genes there are good things to possibly come from our frustrating efforts. As often said here, a picture is a frozen point in time of both time and linebreeding programs.

Bonsma had the type in mind, in detail, and I assume that ever year was a sorting year to get the right ones back in the heifer or weaned bull pen for next year. Or else the search outside his efforts had the same criteria of type. Larry moved that bar up in that he sought replicators to increase the keepers and decrease the cull rate. I assume, from other's comments and his own writings, he never achieved the wide plateau.

Maybe I bear scars and maybe I hate to waste time, but I see a huge expectation of cull rates in the start up of linebreeding programs if we are hoping for some success in one lifetime. About the best anyone could do is start at least 6 lines and expect one to make it or some where around the 15% success rate of replication. I am dealing with sheep in much that way and have a sell sheet now to move sheep that are good but just not going 100% where I am headed. Take unimproved animals, an unproven animal or animals with unknown status, apply selection pressure and the inheritance rate of traits will put the males as easier to select because the inheritance rates on terminal type traits are 3X the rates of the female/fertility type traits. That should not surprise us that males look the part sooner than the females. Where I begin to see a line in the sand is when the females do not solidly replicate what I have seen in past generations much less a tad better.

Probably not positive enough but the word from here on Saturday.
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