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 Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?

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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:19 pm

I still find it an over simplification to identify the cow raising a poor calf and cull her, identify the cow that breeds later in the season and cull her and expect your herd to improve incrementally.

Example today when I drove past a really nice first calf heifer and bull calf - she was everything I am looking for in my program, the picture I have in my mind of the ideal cow. I pulled up in my tracks as I didn't recognize her. Looked at the tag and pulled up her ID on my phone. Her father is a bull that was a bit of a disappointment, this may be the best daughter I've seen off him. Her mother I was disgusted with just a couple of days earlier - bred on the last day the bulls were in, as usual - she's been late 2 out of 3 calvings. She is fat, too good to herself, coarse headed and has a heavy coat that means she likely won't adapt to our new location. True enough in turn her mother is a good old cow and this daughter is a big disappointment relative to other sisters. Looks to me like the first calf heifer is exhibiting about average characteristics of the closed gene pool we have/are aiming for.

So do you cull the ugly, unadapted looking cow based on her look and performance or on the look and performance of her progeny?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:47 pm

RobertMac wrote:
"Regular reproduction in the cow can be considered the grand functional test of the biological worth of the endocrine system. It is the most sensitive measurement of adaptation and constitution."....Bonsma

None of us have the ability to do extensive, meaningful testing.
None of us have the visual evaluation ability of Dr. Bonsma.
But we all know when a cow has a decent calf every year.

Then I guess Dr. Bonsma wasted his time writing information and teaching people. We just need to stand in line for government cheese and forget trying to learn or do.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:06 am

A gold miner does not have to find the mother lode to be success as long as he learns to find nuggets downstream.
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RobertMac



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Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:35 am

A good producer has to love learning.
Bonsma's books(and nature) are the best I have for triggering thought.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:24 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
I still find it an over simplification to identify the cow raising a poor calf and cull her, identify the cow that breeds later in the season and cull her and expect your herd to improve incrementally.

Example today when I drove past a really nice first calf heifer and bull calf - she was everything I am looking for in my program, the picture I have in my mind of the ideal cow. I pulled up in my tracks as I didn't recognize her. Looked at the tag and pulled up her ID on my phone. Her father is a bull that was a bit of a disappointment, this may be the best daughter I've seen off him. Her mother I was disgusted with just a couple of days earlier - bred on the last day the bulls were in, as usual - she's been late 2 out of 3 calvings. She is fat, too good to herself, coarse headed and has a heavy coat that means she likely won't adapt to our new location. True enough in turn her mother is a good old cow and this daughter is a big disappointment relative to other sisters. Looks to me like the first calf heifer is exhibiting about average characteristics of the closed gene pool we have/are aiming for.  

So do you cull the ugly, unadapted looking cow based on her look and performance or on the look and performance of her progeny?

Larry was always in tune with the Falloon statement that in a closed herd, goodness can come from anywhere...
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RobertMac



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Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:48 am

MKeeney wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
I still find it an over simplification to identify the cow raising a poor calf and cull her, identify the cow that breeds later in the season and cull her and expect your herd to improve incrementally.

Example today when I drove past a really nice first calf heifer and bull calf - she was everything I am looking for in my program, the picture I have in my mind of the ideal cow. I pulled up in my tracks as I didn't recognize her. Looked at the tag and pulled up her ID on my phone. Her father is a bull that was a bit of a disappointment, this may be the best daughter I've seen off him. Her mother I was disgusted with just a couple of days earlier - bred on the last day the bulls were in, as usual - she's been late 2 out of 3 calvings. She is fat, too good to herself, coarse headed and has a heavy coat that means she likely won't adapt to our new location. True enough in turn her mother is a good old cow and this daughter is a big disappointment relative to other sisters. Looks to me like the first calf heifer is exhibiting about average characteristics of the closed gene pool we have/are aiming for.  

So do you cull the ugly, unadapted looking cow based on her look and performance or on the look and performance of her progeny?

Larry was always in tune with the Falloon statement that in a closed herd, goodness can come from anywhere...

Lasater said that once you decide to keep a heifer, never judge her by her looks, judge her by what she produces.
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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:45 pm

RobertMac wrote:

Lasater said that once you decide to keep a heifer, never judge her by her looks, judge her by what she produces.

So did he judge them by their looks before deciding to keep them?
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RobertMac



Posts : 377
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:52 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
RobertMac wrote:

Lasater said that once you decide to keep a heifer, never judge her by her looks, judge her by what she produces.

So did he judge them by their looks before deciding to keep them?

First on disposition
Then structural flaws
Then the very bottom end poor doers with the goal of keeping 80-90% of the heifer crop to expose to the bulls.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:32 am

Bonsma judged the canon bone after maturity. Wye measures the cannon bone at birth from what I read a long time ago. Which one made the most difference?

Eddie, thinking about going to the Cherokee Reservation to look for a rain dancer... or two.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:13 am

Been trying to give the "Bonsma eye" treatment to sales catalogs. Currently in my state of overall know-nothingness, it seems that Hereford cattle have stayed more Bonsma-like in general and Angus fell off the scale a long time ago. But I did get a mainstream Angus catalog this week and the lead off cow is the most Bonsma looking of any Angus in anything I have seen so far, but not overly attractive in total. They picture a dam or granddam and she has more of the right look. The rest of the catalog, Sad .

But take heart Red Angus fans, the new indexes (indices, if one wants to be proper!) will lead you to victory with more terminal type cattle. One in overdrive and one in 3rd gear. Happy motoring.
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Mean Spirit



Posts : 321
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:37 am

I got a Bonsma question-- in a "perfect" beef cattle world where most folks raise cattle to eat, and they keep their cowherds full of whatever the right kind and size of cows that is proven to be most efficient when crossed with terminal bulls, and where somebody else provides those terminal bulls--

Does Bonsma mean anything to terminal bull producers? Or is it really just more meat/muscle/marbling quicker with as little calving trouble as possible? In which case, the guy who is raising these cattle should really just try to have cows who are "good enough" (if just barely) in terms of udders, efficiency, etc..
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:09 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
I got a Bonsma question-- in a "perfect" beef cattle world where most folks raise cattle to eat, and they keep their cowherds full of whatever the right kind and size of cows that is proven to be most efficient when crossed with terminal bulls, and where somebody else provides those terminal bulls--

Does Bonsma mean anything to terminal bull producers? Or is it really just more meat/muscle/marbling quicker with as little calving trouble as possible? In which case, the guy who is raising these cattle should really just try to have cows who are "good enough" (if just barely) in terms of udders, efficiency, etc..    

Terminal bulls, commercial herds, sell all calves: Bonsma has no place.

Back in the herd that produces terminal bulls: you/ the producer faces the same production costs or saving as any cow herd: if more heifers are fertile and breed on time, if cows breed on time, if cows and heifers are trouble free (relative) on calving, if females are able to raise calves without assistance, if cows last longer, ... keep adding good and subtracting bad - the terminal bull producer will have lower cost of production and an easier management schedule. I know of a CH herd around here that has nice big cattle and sell great terminal bulls and expect a calf every 24 months. They don't say it but growth has trumped reproduction to be big and known as source of big bulls. Also, don't expect good feet or udders.

Not 100% but I tend to believe that pure Bonsma selection in a "terminal bull producing herd" could hinder the production of the biggest and baddest of terminal bulls as some of his observations sought more moderate rates of maturity thus lessening bone growth potential.

All free opinions come with money back guarantees.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:06 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
I got a Bonsma question-- in a "perfect" beef cattle world where most folks raise cattle to eat, and they keep their cowherds full of whatever the right kind and size of cows that is proven to be most efficient when crossed with terminal bulls, and where somebody else provides those terminal bulls--

Does Bonsma mean anything to terminal bull producers? Or is it really just more meat/muscle/marbling quicker with as little calving trouble as possible? In which case, the guy who is raising these cattle should really just try to have cows who are "good enough" (if just barely) in terms of udders, efficiency, etc..    

is it really just more meat/muscle/marbling quicker with as little calving trouble as possible? In which case, the guy who is raising these cattle should really just try to have cows who are "good enough" (if just barely) in terms of udders, efficiency, etc..

pretty much describes needed terminal production John...Angus breeders are employing that strategy routinely...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:15 am

Been studying and talking off site.

Revelation of sorts: Bonsma could pick the right cattle. Bonsma did not mind crossbreeding. Bonsma did not desire inbreeding. Bonsma had to select the correct cattle each generation.

The natural balancing act of genetic entropy preserves the Bonsma type to appear in individual animals in all cattle groups, breeds and herds. But that does not mean that those individuals will breed true into the next generation.

Cattle selected using Bonsma type parameters will only be proven as true breeders of proper type via intense inbreeding or linebreeding. The intensity of inbreeding or linebreeding is merely dependent on how much time you have to either prove the cattle to be worthy or to cull them as unable to replicate the pattern.

This has been helpful to me. Hope this helps someone else.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:45 am

If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done.

Bruce Lee


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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:47 am

If you don't spend enough time thinking about a thing, you'll probably repeat the same mistakes.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:13 pm

think too much, you'll create a problem that wasn't there in the first place.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:53 pm

I often think past my knowledge level, but procrastinate long enough for it not to become a problem.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:06 pm

larkota wrote:
If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done.

Bruce Lee

How large of a herd or flock did Bruce Lee manage? Was he a linebreeder or a promoter? How did he prove himself to be an example worth quoting? The best quotes are from individuals who were relevant by their work and their knowledge. Otherwise, we need to quote Henny Youngman and Milton Berle.

Thank goodness folks thought and thought long and hard who have made many inventions that moved us beyond a 3rd world country. Non-thinkers are mere followers.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:05 pm

mere follower is not so bad, I'm more of a doer. Next spring I'm going to do away with my cows and think no one will care.

renting pays better then thinking.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:26 am

larkota wrote:
mere follower is not so bad, I'm more of a doer.  Next spring I'm going to do away with my cows and think no one will care.

renting pays better then thinking.
What if your cattle were worth more, had more value and were more profitable than rental payments?
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outsidethebox



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:49 pm

EddieM wrote:
Been studying and talking off site.  

Revelation of sorts: Bonsma could pick the right cattle.  Bonsma did not mind crossbreeding.  Bonsma did not desire inbreeding.  Bonsma had to select the correct cattle each generation.

The natural balancing act of genetic entropy preserves the Bonsma type to appear in individual animals in all cattle groups, breeds and herds.  But that does not mean that those individuals will breed true into the next generation.

Cattle selected using Bonsma type parameters will only be proven as true breeders of proper type via intense inbreeding or linebreeding.  The intensity of inbreeding or linebreeding is merely dependent on how much time you have to either prove the cattle to be worthy or to cull them as unable to replicate the pattern.

This has been helpful to me.  Hope this helps someone else.

Not many "thinkers" on that sheep forum are there, Eddie??? Wow! Your attempt to begin a discussion in this regard sure went nowhere fast..."Mr. EBV" would have nothing of it...and I didn't have the energy to jump in.
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:23 pm

EddieM wrote:
Been studying and talking off site.  

Revelation of sorts: Bonsma could pick the right cattle.  Bonsma did not mind crossbreeding.  Bonsma did not desire inbreeding.  Bonsma had to select the correct cattle each generation.

The natural balancing act of genetic entropy preserves the Bonsma type to appear in individual animals in all cattle groups, breeds and herds.  But that does not mean that those individuals will breed true into the next generation.

Cattle selected using Bonsma type parameters will only be proven as true breeders of proper type via intense inbreeding or linebreeding.  The intensity of inbreeding or linebreeding is merely dependent on how much time you have to either prove the cattle to be worthy or to cull them as unable to replicate the pattern.

This has been helpful to me.  Hope this helps someone else.

Good thoughts and thanks for starting this thread! I keep hoping that our more experienced breeders will share their experiences with Bonsma's principles - both good and bad.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:27 pm

outsidethebox wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Been studying and talking off site.  

Revelation of sorts: Bonsma could pick the right cattle.  Bonsma did not mind crossbreeding.  Bonsma did not desire inbreeding.  Bonsma had to select the correct cattle each generation.

The natural balancing act of genetic entropy preserves the Bonsma type to appear in individual animals in all cattle groups, breeds and herds.  But that does not mean that those individuals will breed true into the next generation.

Cattle selected using Bonsma type parameters will only be proven as true breeders of proper type via intense inbreeding or linebreeding.  The intensity of inbreeding or linebreeding is merely dependent on how much time you have to either prove the cattle to be worthy or to cull them as unable to replicate the pattern.

This has been helpful to me.  Hope this helps someone else.

Not many "thinkers" on that sheep forum are there, Eddie??? Wow! Your attempt to begin a discussion in this regard sure went nowhere fast..."Mr. EBV" would have nothing of it...and I didn't have the energy to jump in.

I was fishing to see if Bonsma type selection has ever been tried in other species. I have looked at wild sheep pictures and I do not see great variation of male/female except for the classic neck extension, secondary traits but not so much body shape back to front or front to back. There is little to no research to find on the internet. the only odd link study had to do with horns and fertility or something that we would never link together as functions affected by same genes.

But I could tell that was not his subject and it was holy ground for him to tell that both breeds he raised never did need a look as much as they needed numbers. Some who read probably think I have gone hog wild on a fad. I am as skeptical as most. But I do wonder if we can improve percentages of keepers via visuals. I am not a horse, hog, goat or other experienced breed but I do not see that Bonsma can cross over to other species like sheep but just wanted to make sure.

Some see a chat site as a territory to conquer rather than a community to enjoy.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:41 am

With moderation of temperatures, I am beginning to see the start of winter hair on bulls. Seems to be starting in crest area.
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