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 Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:38 am

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:25 am

Does Kit ride a Shetland Pony?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:38 pm

some nice Bonsma type cows...click side arrows to see all 5 pics

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1122514677816683&set=pcb.1122514791150005&type=3&theater
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:44 pm

That link isn't working for me Mike and your FB ones usually do - "content unavailable because you are maybe not in the group"?



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:00 pm

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Farmerkuk



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:20 pm

Nothing for this non Facebook user. I do like that char calf!!!

If I could post a pic got a nice Shoshone x calf.
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:40 pm

I remember how incredibly accurate Dr. Bonsma was as he looked at our cattle in the arena and he could tell us about the production of our cows and he was correct. I am no expert at visual selection of cattle but I learned a lot about the feminine look of a cow and masculine look of a Bull
My wife is more gifted in visual selection than me but I think our cows have a feminine appearance. We keep our cows in good body condition so some would consider them feminine but fat.

Kit has very feminine cows and very masculine Bulls. I don't know if he followed the teachings of Bonsma but I believe Kit is a very smart cattleman and I admire his determination to raise cattle as natural and efficient as possible. I often see steer calves or bulls that have very masculine appearance and I prefer that thick masculine appearance and my calf weights reflect more pounds from the "masculine calves"

Someone asked if Kit rides a Shetland Pony and The answer to that is no, his horse is a fine looking full size horse that appears to me to be a Quarter Horse.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:25 am

Crcowboy wrote:

Someone asked if Kit rides a Shetland Pony and The answer to that is no, his horse is a fine looking full size horse that appears to me to be a Quarter Horse.

I wonder why? If his cattle "logic" applied the Shetland would be able to do the same job more efficiently with the bonus that he could run more of them on the same acres. And the market just loves shetland ponies.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:42 am

“Ignorance, prejudice and superstition are the three most important factors which make it difficult for the developing people to really breed good cattle.”

“…natural selection is hazardous. It is time consuming, it is merciless and expensive.”

“Production traits demonstrating the lowest heritability figures tend to yield the highest percent heterosis.”

“The first step in successful livestock production is to get adaptability. That gives you liveability.”

Since we have the comparative going: Kit starts off short cattle, small cattle or whatever and then tries to make it fit into every environment and region of North America by then looking at adaptability and liveability. For Bonsma, the steps are adaptability, liveability then fertility, then metabolic rate, ... Bonsma was not mesmerized with a particular size of cattle as it did not fit environmental or logical selection. Kit is an excellent promoter and salesman. Kit is biased and prejudiced toward small cattle because that is where he hangs his hat and makes his money. He is not a Bonsma comparative.
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:14 am

From what I remember, Bonsma was a researcher and teacher who was gifted in an amazing way
But he was working with other people's cattle. Kit is making his living, living and raising cattle in an amazing operation. I'm not saying that Kit's ideas of cattle size will work for everyone but it sure amazing to me what a great job he does.

Here's females look very feminine and his males look very masculine. I liked what he was doing before but I really like it since I've visited and got on the ground with him.

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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:25 am

This is probably off subject, but I heard if a 5 Rivers cattle buyer buys Pharo sired calves he will be looking for a new job. I don't want the high growth epd mainstream cattle in my cow herd, but I don't want a discount on my calves either. At the same weight, small framed cattle easily bring  $100 to $200 per head less than medium/large frame, and it will probably be worse in a low market, the buyers can be pickier. Why would anyone want to raise cattle that are hard to sell commercially.
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:49 am

For my operation the big advantage of kit pharaohs type bulls is they will put moderation in my larger frame cows. We have some Dutchman daughters that are good cows but they are really big and I think for our ranch we need more moderation.
Coleman Angus from Charlotte Montana, has used kit pharaohs ideas and blood lines and fed them well and I like what I see there.

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:14 pm

cc wrote:
I'm not saying that Kit's ideas of cattle size will work for everyone...

I realize that, but KIT does! That is the problem. He pretty much tells folks who know what the order buyers want that they are stupid to not follow him off of the cliff's edge.

Loose your hinnie at the barn because you don't think there is much difference in a FS 3 to 4 other than 2" (paraphrased version of an often printed farao quote) and you will find out, like Tom said, that the difference is not 2" but $200 per head.

And I disagree with your fire and ice mating of tall to short. I think it is better to use the ideal size and slowly moderate rather than ping-pong off the walls from big to little, little to big, ... Seems Larry had a quote about selecting an ideal type and using it.
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:14 pm

I know I sure liked the Shoshone cows I saw in Nebraska  but I like most of my cows too.
I used two Pharo Bulls and they did did good stuff for my cows.

The Brooks Donna Cow from Thistledew is the Dam or Grand Dam of most of my Bulls now and I love her
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:01 pm

Crcowboy wrote:


The Brooks Donna Cow from Thistledew is the Dam or Grand Dam of most of my Bulls now and I love her

That's awesome man.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:01 pm

Crcowboy wrote:
I think Kit has his own theory and he shares Jesus and doing things as He sees and knows Jesus intended for us to raise cattle.

I really admire both Dr Bonsma and Kit

This one is awesome too.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:22 am

I expect Kit to be the first non-Catholic canonized; his list of miracles far outshine Mother Teresa...miracles are dependent on a gullible following and a willing group of testifiers to seeing the miracles happen; he has both...I`ll just stick with science...
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:30 am

Did you ever go visit Kit and see his cattle and rangeland?  I am not sure what I expected but I was impressed by what I saw.

My understanding is that a very good Christian will receive crowns in Heaven and be able to lay those crowns at the foot of the throne of God, to further glorify our Almighty Lord and Creator.

Kit is Jesus Confident in his life work and he is wonderfully intelligent and a fine rancher. His integrity and natural ranching methods are very impressive to me and nothing he says or does resembles the Rich and extravagant appearance of Catholic leadership.

I spent a nice visit with one of Kit's helpers and his shares about Kit and the Pharo operation were very impressive too.

It was about 5 PM when I was ready to leave and Kit, his wife and son, went to AI cattle, his helper was done for the day. To me, that speaks volumes when a boss respects the time at home with family, for his help.
Kit Pharo is to me a lot of hat and a lot of horse and He is a Cowman who deserves respect and appreciation.

When I bought and used his Bulls, they were from his larger framed cows and they were very good for my breeding program.

I like light birthweight and explosive growth and Kits Bulls worked very well for me.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:40 am

"Explosive growth" ? Didn't think anyone would claim that about the farao cattle, not even Kit. After all his resounding message is that small is where the money is, small calves pay better than big ones, small cows better than big. Sorry, but explosive growth always leads to bigger in the real world.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:05 am

Cowboy,
Finding two saviors in one time and place must have been a miraculous , happy day for you. Both the Lord and the con men loveth a cheerful giver. Keep your faith, but just for the record, I`m going to keep my money.
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:40 am

Explosive growth thing is my desire not Kit's

I sure never called anybody but Jesus my Savior
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:17 pm

I have the top end of my replacement heifer calves all preconditioned, bangs vaccinated and the top 115 to 125 out of 150 will be offered for sale on the Video sale September 19

We took videos this morning and they look good. It is tough to sell heifers when market is low but our drought causes us to sell and if we keep cows, we still have the factory
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:47 pm

Gigsaw puzzle of 822 bull-shoulders, back and rump.  We can view, study and discuss Bonsma type stuff.  Looks more like a chihuahua (old term was Mexican hairless) but he is what he is and will be used here due to both sire and dam functions.






Stuck in a picture of a cow I have learned to appreciate.  Might call her Goldilocks: not too big, not too little, right at home here - "JUST-T-T RIGHT".  Look at those almost vertical shoulder blades and sleek hide with folds exhibiting looseness.  Good clean front.  Tail hangs vertical.  No fat deposits.  Will keep the son from this year and see how that goes.

"Regular reproduction in the cow can be considered the grand functional test of the biological worth of the endocrine system. It is the most sensitive measurement of adaptation and constitution."


Here is a 25% outcross and look at the hair.  Great growth, seems to fit and dam breeds like a clock.  She has more hair than him.
[url=]][/url]

Explosive growth or efficient growth in a package that has environmental fit?:
" The judging for functional efficiency in no way deprecate a performance and progeny testing. It must be a supplement or an additional aid or an assistance to the livestock breeder in the process of performance testing and selecting cattle for breeding purposes."

Heifer selection: (Hint - not merely the top cut, which has more of a terminal type connotation?)
"In the selection of heifers for replacement the interpretation of what we observe is important. The heifers are really measured three-dimensionally, that is, we interpret what we see in the morphology of the animal in terms of its endocrinology and physiology. In other words, every pathway ... is evaluated when animals are selected for future breeding purposes. ... It is therefore of the utmost importance that we should very carefully study heifers to determine which are really feminine and will settle quickly."
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:07 am

Crcowboy wrote:
I have the top end of my replacement heifer calves all preconditioned, bangs vaccinated and the top 115 to 125 out of 150 will be offered for sale on the Video sale September 19

We took videos this morning and they look good. It is tough to sell heifers when market is low but our drought causes us to sell and if we keep cows, we still have the factory

by all means, post the video links...what's the weight?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:23 am

"Regular reproduction in the cow can be considered the grand functional test of the biological worth of the endocrine system. It is the most sensitive measurement of adaptation and constitution."....Bonsma

None of us have the ability to do extensive, meaningful testing.
None of us have the visual evaluation ability of Dr. Bonsma.
But we all know when a cow has a decent calf every year.
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