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 Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:03 am

Been reading the lectures of Bonsma. I have met a number of people over the years who were either readers, quoters or self-professed followers of the system/observations/details of the writings, lectures, books, ...

What parts do you overlook of his recommendations and why? Example: fertility of females. Recommendation: short breeding season then cull opens. We know that there are most or many herds with spring/fall options to pick up cows that missed in the spring. Are we short circuiting the adaption, selection and improvement of cattle to do that?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:12 pm

Mostly a bragging rights sales pitch
..more dependent of feed than genetic improvement....
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:47 pm

Adaptation...yes, most of the time
Selection(type) and improvement (weight)... I'll go with Mike, most of the time Very Happy
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:58 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Adaptation...yes, most of the time
Selection(type) and improvement (weight)... I'll go with Mike, most of the time Very Happy

I`ve already seen enough to say 70 years of Beefmaster breeding with just the essentials has not solved all problems, but as a population I am very optimistic that the cross cow will exceed either of the purebreds maternally...in this geographical area...
as to adaptation, my cows breed/function great in the fall; is that adaptation or management? I tend towards management decision on time of calving...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:31 am

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Adaptation...yes, most of the time
Selection(type) and improvement (weight)... I'll go with Mike, most of the time Very Happy

I`ve already seen enough to say 70 years of Beefmaster breeding with just the essentials has not solved all problems, but as a population I am very optimistic that the cross cow will exceed either of the purebreds maternally...in this geographical area...
as to adaptation, my cows breed/function great in the fall; is that adaptation or management? I tend towards management decision on time of calving...

If a "breed" solved cattle problems then this site would never have been necessary.

I really like ear crossed cattle. They add so much good in a cross and I proved that to myself years ago. I never proved it to the buyers. Money makes the mare trot.

Quote :
..more dependent of feed than genetic improvement....
Was just blessed with an Express Ranch catalog this week. If feed = fertility ... those are the most "fertile" cattle I have ever seen. Surprised Functional? Not for me but they never went a day grubbing up a bite to eat.

Are we going for adaptation or somewhat adapted? Adapted, for real, is going to have a hard time to work in other climates and regions. Almost adapted: has enough variation to self-sort and self-cull in the new location to expose a fraction that fits. Maybe that is our limitation: small zone of sale vs. larger zone of sale.

One thing I have concluded about Bonsma so far: he greatly admired an outstanding dairy cow.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:14 am

I think adaptation is achieved by "being there a while"; it is therefore, mostly out of my control when selling to a new owner...Genetic selection can eliminate genetic PROBLEMS wherever the cattle go...type, udders, feet, structure, temperament etc; but genetics are very limited when it comes to genetic adaptation...and certainly, move genes to new locations with bulls, never cows as a standard practice...
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:28 am

MKeeney wrote:
I think adaptation is achieved by "being there a while"...
...with out introduction of new genetics

In the natural world, adaptation is a function of reproduction and survival of the fittest in a specific environment.

In our world, adaptation is normally adjusting the environment to meet the needs of the desired results for our cattle with profitability.
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:29 am

It is better to be a cockroach than a dinasaur. After spending past 8 days driving out past Denver and back on a family vacation I am quite amazed. Pictures don't do any of it justice, including the golf courses. Very Happy Management can help overcome and maybe just as much also bury anything. The ash bore from what I read is thriving as much in Colorado as it is in Ohio and other parts east. Go figure.
We can try to bulletproof our success and local practices and most everyone on here is on that journey. I feel that success is best sustained from smart rather than being rich after making excessive $ off fools buying your sales pitch.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:26 am

Mark Day wrote:
It is better to be a cockroach than a dinasaur. After spending past 8 days driving out past Denver and back on a family vacation I am quite amazed. Pictures don't do any of it justice, including the golf courses. Very Happy Management can help overcome and maybe just as much also bury anything. The ash bore from what I read is thriving as much in Colorado as it is in Ohio and other parts east. Go figure.
We can try to bulletproof our success and local practices and most everyone on here is on that journey. I feel that success is best sustained from smart rather than being rich after making excessive $ off fools buying your sales pitch.

Still reading: Bonsma seemed to have proven restrictions on extremes. Cattle with too much growth or late growth or cows which were not feminine and fertile were undesirable. This limited extreme height or extremely fast growing females. Yet he strove for better cattle and some of that reflected in discussions of weight at 8 months and performance testing. His #1 was adaptation and I have enjoyed that depth of thought probably the most. I think the main thing is to retrain your observation skills to a proven set of traits of a better type and still have enough data or comparative information to know what is happening. The hair and skin are strong indicators. Some of you might know but the late Leroy Boyd developed heat resistant wool sheep in Mississippi decades ago. The beginning cull was extreme and seemingly unsuccessful but the flock became well known in the south and was highly sought after as better genetics. His two main indicators were skin thickness and one other body measurement. Maybe he heard Dr. Bonsma somewhere along the way and tried to adapt the concepts to sheep.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:45 pm

Part of a George Jones song wrote:
I've had choices
Since the day that I was born
There were voices
That told me right from wrong
If I had listened
No I wouldn't be here today
Living and dying
With the choices I made

I guess I'm payin'
For the things that I have done
If I could go back
Oh, Lord knows I'd run
But I'm still losin'
This game of life I play
Living and dying
With the choices I made

Going along with any system, we make choices in livestock, and sometimes ... maybe often, look back and wonder about ourselves and the choices. Just been stuck in my head today for some reason.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:32 am

Fooled with some bulls on Monday. Tried the Bonsma view. Shoulder blades were correct, crest, varying hair, testicles, ...Question: how did Bonsma measure hide thickness and quality? Leroy Boyd measured ear thickness on sheep. Is that a correct way? A better way? Weight watchers had the "pinch an inch" rule but that never worked so well as most folks could "grab a slab". Embarassed Any suggestions or experiences?

Uneducated observation; Bonsma wanted cattle to stop height growth at 20 months so I assumed more moderate frame scores. The last bull I hauled was 2+ YO and was probably FS 6 yet correct. Any info available on the sizes of the Bonsmara cattle when proper and Bonsma was pleased?

Also, lectures said that Bonsamara cattle achieved a preg rate of 80%. I understand the problems of tropics as more severe and folks in LA with heavy Brahman influence and lightly managed wet range/swamp type were OK with a calf every 18 to 24 months according to my late father in law. Does anyone know the increase to expect in % bred if Bonsma principles are applied?

One last question to see if you are a true convert; if you had it to do over again would you use Bonsma principles to cull the field when you were looking for a spouse? Shocked

Thanks.

Eddie, reading and wondering study
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:08 am

EddieM wrote:
  if you had it to do over again would you use Bonsma principles to cull the field when you were looking for a spouse?  Shocked

Thanks.

Eddie, reading and wondering study


sure glad my wife never heard of  Bonsma principles when she meet me.

wondering in Bonsma's thinking which had more influence the male or female? scratch
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:51 pm

As far as hide thickness you can measure it with some tweezer like things with a scale on them. In Scotland we used to have to get the vet to test for TB (I think it was TB) every 4 years. They came and gave all the cows an injection in the neck then came back about 5 days later and in theory measured the spot for reaction. In practice they just ran their hand over the area and in the odd case where there was a lump they measured it. I remember once commenting to my Dad that a certain cow that we were running through was "thin skinned" meaning it was a poor doer and never carried much flesh. The vet said "you're right it is only 3mm instead of the rest that are 5 mm" - measurements were something like that, can't remember exactly as it was 30 years ago now.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:08 am

I looked up and found the skin calipers. I might try measuring ear thickness to see if I can make it simpler but maybe harder on a moving target. I did find one paragraph where some of the selection processes moved % calving from 70 to 93% for a particular herd. Will be weaning calves in the next several weeks so I will have to decide if I want to jot any notes while the cows are up.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:37 am

Looking at cows and bulls yesterday: hair type on bulls is hard as the hair is so short right now. I see some hair in shoulders and neck so that would be OK while the rest of the body is not bald but no hair to judge. I do not see the darker hair on the neck and shoulder. Not questioning bull status but wondering if other than black cattle exhibit and especially if red cattle are easier to read on color contrasts? Seems like Bonsma clues for selection would be easier and more economical than culling a lot later on.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:09 am

Burke`s is far more accurate...I did wrangle an answer from the genomics crowd yesterday...if your pedigrees are not connected to the popular Angus bloodlines, the current test are pretty much useless...
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:40 am

EddieM wrote:
Looking at cows and bulls yesterday: hair type on bulls is hard as the hair is so short right now.  I see some hair in shoulders and neck so that would be OK while the rest of the body is not bald but no hair to judge.  I do not see the darker hair on the neck and shoulder.  Not questioning bull status but wondering if other than black cattle exhibit and especially if red cattle are easier to read on color contrasts?  Seems like Bonsma clues for selection would be easier and more economical than culling a lot later on.

Don't have black bulls, so don't know how one would see a "darker" black.

Hair on shoulder, neck, and forehead should be more course and curly and present in summer hair coat.

A Bonsma observation that has stuck in my head is that his most functionally efficient, best adapted cattle were the ones that maintained the most consistent body temperature in varying seasons and activities. The reason he thought of the hide as the most important organ.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:07 pm

RobertMac wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Looking at cows and bulls yesterday: hair type on bulls is hard as the hair is so short right now.  I see some hair in shoulders and neck so that would be OK while the rest of the body is not bald but no hair to judge.  I do not see the darker hair on the neck and shoulder.  Not questioning bull status but wondering if other than black cattle exhibit and especially if red cattle are easier to read on color contrasts?  Seems like Bonsma clues for selection would be easier and more economical than culling a lot later on.

Don't have black bulls, so don't know how one would see a "darker" black.

Hair on shoulder, neck, and forehead should be more course and curly and present in summer hair coat.

A Bonsma observation that has stuck in my head is that his most functionally efficient, best adapted cattle were the ones that maintained the most consistent body temperature in varying seasons and activities. The reason he thought of the hide as the most important organ.
I noticed that he collected temperatures for part of his knowledge base and breed formation. White cattle would present the same problem with shades of color, I guess. Worked thru the rams yesterday and they smelled strong when I started and WE Embarassed smelled strong by the time I finished. There is a ram effect Dr. Browning of TSU said last week that selecting a buck (goat) requires one that has a strong odor to excite the females. So I guess we have undervalued a bull with the proper smell due to hormones. Might be a good graduate student project. Could develop "Canned Bull" in a spray bottle to use on the cow's muzzle when AIing!
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:27 pm

My name is Calvin Christensen and years ago our County Agent, John Maki, brought Dr Jan Bonsma to Dillon Montana and my Daddy took cattle to the local fairgrounds because we had very accurate production records on our cattle.
Dr Bonsma was incredibly precise in telling us the history and production of our cows. He was amazing and John Maki became very competent in the use of Bonsma's techniques.
John could not get ten people to a local meeting but packed the building at Roundup Montana.

I thought Dr Bonsma was magic
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:41 pm

I recently visited Kit Pharo and toured part of his ranch and saw a lot of his cattle, they are sure easy keepers and I was amazed that red cattle in general had less horn flies than most of the blacks.
I think that the huge push and promotion of grass fat cattle will make some of us happier if we follow the policies for selection suggested by Kit Pharo.
I like to think we have selected for the right kind of cattle but things may really change with so many imports into our US markets.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:06 pm

RobertMac wrote:

A Bonsma observation that has stuck in my head is that his most functionally efficient, best adapted cattle were the ones that maintained the most consistent body temperature in varying seasons and activities. The reason he thought of the hide as the most important organ.

Surely that's easier to accomplish the closer to the equator you get? We can have a 140 f range up here summer to winter. Our red cattle are really easy to see the colour changes and patterns on but I think you can see it on whites and blacks too, different shades and different degrees of shine on the hair.

Below is a picture from a customers herd - one of our Luing bulls in breeding colour (the real dark red they take on in breeding season) cow beside him is a Luing x red Angus and the calves the product of crossing these F1s with Charolais. The Luing bulls are more the colour of that cow in the off season.

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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:09 am

[quote="MKeeney"]Burke`s is far more accurate...I did wrangle an answer from the genomics crowd yesterday...if your pedigrees are not connected to the popular Angus bloodlines, the current test are pretty much uselesquote]Ah the simplicity of pass fail ....... observation gets thumped again,we must have a test to create popular modern accruacy. Bonsma's is/was to visual .Too few appreciate his findings and fewer took the time to use their eyes instead of their tongue. Jon
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:23 am

[quote="Crcowboy"]My name is Calvin Christensen and years ago our County Agent, John Maki, brought Dr Jan Bonsma to Dillon Montana and my Daddy took cattle to the local fairgrounds because we had very accurate production records on our cattle. Welcome Calvin , Please fill us in on Bonsma's teachings and your families experience . Not sure I understand the Bonsma .....Pharo conectiion



"The superior man understands what is right;the inferior man understands what will sell." Confucius. Again Welcome,Jon









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Farmerkuk



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:50 am

Calvin

Is kit using bonsma principals in his selection?
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Crcowboy



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PostSubject: Re: Bonsma - which parts do you let slide?   Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:29 am

I think Kit has his own theory and he shares Jesus and doing things as He sees and knows Jesus intended for us to raise cattle.

I really admire both Dr Bonsma and Kit
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