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 Paradigm Shift

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:10 pm

debt and lifestyle are the biggest contributors to "broke" I`ve seen...I can think of several registered wannabes going broke or losing at least their shirt if not their ass, but I can`t think of a single broke everyday cattle farmer around here...
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C.S.Cunningham



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:49 pm

pukerimu wrote:
Maaaate ...................... been there done that - have the t-shirt and the battle scars - we only learnt to ignore them the hard way ... trust me.

The two sides of the breeding coin in NZ are however easily identified and we find the company of like minds priceless.  Keep up the good fight but be sure to love what you are doing - heart and sole the cattle breeder maketh ................... in my ever so humble opinion Laughing

The company of like minds is what brought me here to Kee ny's Corner! It has been wonderful reading through Larry Leonhardt's posts and the various threads that you all have contributed to over the years. There has been much food for thought.

I have been a student of systematic linebreeding and a closed herd for years, though last year I decided to put my linebred Red Poll bulls over my linebred commercial herd experimentally. I feel like it will yield a very productive crop of F1 heifers. We shall see!

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C.S.Cunningham



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:04 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Anyone ignorant enough of cattle production to pay $5000 for this Pharo bull may well go broke;
but it won`t be the bull that breaks him; it will be his ignorance.

I do not disagree! Smile

But I am still curious to hear your thoughts on the gist of my thoughts and ideals! I do not dispute your dislike of Kit Pharo, nor am I here to defend him. I am genuinely eager to hear your opposing view point beyond the dislike and the emoticons.

As I have said, I have listened to a lot of BS from Pharo; I have talked to him several times, but I have never paid him a nickle. No PCC semen, bulls, or females have ever been on my place. Strictly commercial Brangus and registered Red Polls. So I don't have a tie to him except that I have come to agree with his ideal of a more moderate framed individual, amd I have no vested interest.

I am just interested in raising cattle that profit me and other cattlemen, which I feel to be the crossing of a moderate framed female (3-4.5 and 1,000-1,300 pounds) to a larger framed, terminal bull. You appear to disagree, and you have been offering maternal seed stock to the public longer than I have. Thus, I hold your experience in high regard and would love to hear what you hold to be a better size and type to pursue.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:08 pm

Some where here it is said x-strain was one man's concept and application of cattle breeding freely given by Larry for anyone interested...obviously it too is not the only way to breed or produce cattle profitably. ..Larry said one of the most difficult task was deciding how much cow you want...finally,each chooses his own path, accepting the asossiated tradeoffs...
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:25 am

C.S.Cunningham wrote:


I certainly have been docked for maternal line cull calves, but count that as the opportunity cost of having propotant cattle. I have always felt that the premiums gained through marketing maternal line bulls and heifers foils the dock at the sale barn for their lesser siblings, and the market calves sired by paternal bulls are better for having maternal dames that can rear them at a lower cost of forage and supplements. Of course, the dock on small framed market calves is the very reason I breed twice as many terminal calves!

I am intrigued that you get enough premium for "maternal" seed stock bulls to help cover the dock on your culls, premiums for your heifers is a story more often told.

Seems to me you have a good grasp of what you are looking to do and some of the logical problems that can and will occur.

Frame score, easy fleshing, balance all are objective and heavily influenced by environment and management.... Now all you have to do is find optimal through personal experience   Wink

Very little of what Pharo says or does adds up but he probably makes a profit.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:01 am

I have been wondering about the accuracy of milk epds as they race above 30 while I consider some of my cows excessive...somewhat amazed that the difference between low and high milk epds doesn't equate to more milk in the pail or calf`s belly...

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/research/research-reports-1/2005/2005-1%20Erat%20Research%20Report.pdf

a milk epd of 15 might be my average...a 35 would mean a calf gained .1 lbs per day spread over 200 days more than my cows etc...I really still don`t know pints of milk to lbs of calf...certain it would not be linear...
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:33 am

C.S.Cunningham wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Few ,if any, cattlemen have ever gone broke as a result of their genetics ...pharo sky is falling bs...


To describe my program more fully that you might have a better understanding of my situation:

My ideal is an angular cow (broader at the rump than the shoulder and deeper at the flank than the heart girth) beong of frame score 3-4.5 and weighing from 1,000 to 1,300 pounds, that is long lived, easy keeping, and able to deliver a good calf at weaning each year by the fat of her back. My only input in feeds being good quality hay in the winter. I have not yet fully eleminated grain supplements, as I am improving the diversity of my pasturage through drilling more cool season mixes. I calve from April to May to better facilitate these goals.

I utilize high density stock grazing focusing on a stocking density of around 100,000 pounds per acre, but I flex the density up and down situationally.

Hey I think if you can get by with the discounts on your straightbred feeder calves who are, presumably, 3-4 frames, then I don't know what there is to question. To me Pharo's story is at its worst when he seems to advocate going ever smaller in frame, as in "a smaller cow is always better than a larger cow"-type stuff, and also when he tries to make some argument that a 4 frame 1200 lb cow is somehow a lot more efficient than a 5 frame 1200 lb cow. I don't doubt type matters, but I'd be very surprised if there's a substantial difference between a smaller statured cow and a bigger statured cow that weigh the same. Generally, I don't think there's any real question that cows more moderate cows with growthier terminal bulls is the best system for most people, but its likely a good bit more complicated to figure out what is best in a particular situation.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:40 am

We did try breeding small frame 1000-1100lb Galloway cows to large frame Charolais bulls 25 years ago. The calves produced were outstanding and hinted at being "curve benders" on profitability with the low maintenance small cow producing the big market calf. Didn't pan out overall due to increased calving difficulty resulting in some dead calves, crippled cows and cows that didn't breed back as a result. We discovered, as the Scottish saying goes "You can't breed rats from mice".
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:16 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
We did try breeding small frame 1000-1100lb Galloway cows to large frame Charolais bulls 25 years ago. The calves produced were outstanding and hinted at being "curve benders" on profitability with the low maintenance small cow producing the big market calf. Didn't pan out overall due to increased calving difficulty resulting in some dead calves, crippled cows and cows that didn't breed back as a result. We discovered, as the Scottish saying goes "You can't breed rats from mice".  

You mean even hybrid vigor isn't free.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:59 am

MS wrote:
I'd be very surprised if there's a substantial difference between a smaller statured cow and a bigger statured cow that weigh the same
You missed that chapter and verse: the answer is the number of hairs per square inch for fly scoring purposes!

We talk about the average of the population. Maybe the Red Poll population is what is being described in FS and mature weight. For C. S. to try to change the population above average would be a waste of time or a waste of resources if they want to revert back to what they are. He might be doomed to have to use the big bull/little cow system to meet market demands.

That's how I picture the Wye effort. Any real efforts to change the short genetics of the herd to taller animals replays the old game plan of shifting the skeleton to a point of cattle which are post legged and out of proper bone angle for longevity of joints.
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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:26 am

Efficiency and profit are not the same thing. It doesn't matter how efficient small framed cows are per acre, if each cow is losing money.
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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:44 am

Low input cows don't have to be short and fat. http://coronasc.nmsu.edu/documents/angus20journal20article.pdf
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:08 am

Referencing Burke Teichert`s philosophies, I am at odds in practice with developing my yearling heifers on the same feed my cows eat; the nutrient demands of a young growing heifer different than a mature cow...first, I am a farmer, not a rancher; silage expands my herd numbers, maybe not my bank account...and I think "my preferred type" would suffer a paradigm shift toward smaller for sure...a shift a terminal might not be usable on ala Grassy`s story...
so I accept the trade-off of early expense for the long, lived, later maturing type that can function as Tom points out in a lower input management fashion...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:41 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
We did try breeding small frame 1000-1100lb Galloway cows to large frame Charolais bulls 25 years ago. The calves produced were outstanding and hinted at being "curve benders" on profitability with the low maintenance small cow producing the big market calf. Didn't pan out overall due to increased calving difficulty resulting in some dead calves, crippled cows and cows that didn't breed back as a result. We discovered, as the Scottish saying goes "You can't breed rats from mice".  

You mean even hybrid vigor isn't free.

The C-sections sure weren't but maybe the education was?
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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sun May 01, 2016 3:19 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Referencing Burke Teichert`s philosophies, I am at odds in practice with developing my yearling heifers on the same feed my cows eat; the nutrient demands of a young growing heifer different than a mature cow...first, I am a farmer, not a rancher; silage expands my herd numbers, maybe not my bank account...and I think "my preferred  type" would suffer a paradigm shift toward smaller for sure...a shift a terminal might not be usable on ala Grassy`s story...
so I accept the trade-off of early expense for the long, lived, later maturing type that can function as Tom points out in a lower input management fashion...


We feed our heifers better than the cows too. This past winter the heifer calves were fed about 200 pounds of ddgs, 1/2 ton of hay and all of the dormant grass they would eat. I think they gained about 1 to 1.25 pounds per day, but I don't really know because we never weigh them, except when something sells. The first calf heifers got 120 pounds of ddgs and 3/4 ton of hay. he three year olds and a few teen age cows got about 9 pounds of 12% protein hay per day, fed every other day from January through March, about 800 pounds per head. The cows were on the desert, and we put out Mix 30 once a week, to average 3 pounds per day. We try to balance getting the heifers big enough to calve without trouble and breed back, but not pamper them so much that they can't handle it when they are wintered out later in life

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Tom



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sun May 01, 2016 3:20 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
We did try breeding small frame 1000-1100lb Galloway cows to large frame Charolais bulls 25 years ago. The calves produced were outstanding and hinted at being "curve benders" on profitability with the low maintenance small cow producing the big market calf. Didn't pan out overall due to increased calving difficulty resulting in some dead calves, crippled cows and cows that didn't breed back as a result. We discovered, as the Scottish saying goes "You can't breed rats from mice".  

You mean even hybrid vigor isn't free.

The C-sections sure weren't but maybe the education was?

Everyone pays tuition one way or another.
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rross



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Wed May 04, 2016 8:41 pm

Tom wrote:
Low input cows don't have to be short and fat. http://coronasc.nmsu.edu/documents/angus20journal20article.pdf


The cows pictured in the article............Are they thin because of the harsh environment and the way they are supplemented or is it breeding?? scratch
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Fri May 06, 2016 6:55 pm

rross wrote:
Tom wrote:
Low input cows don't have to be short and fat. http://coronasc.nmsu.edu/documents/angus20journal20article.pdf


The cows pictured in the article............Are they thin because of the harsh environment and the way they are supplemented or is it breeding?? scratch

maybe a combination of all three? looks like they could stand more gut, but maybe nothing to fill it...I wonder if they are fatter by weaning time? I think they could be if the milk subsided earlier...there`s a dairy term for the cow that sustains her milk level over a longer period in her lactation ...maybe a beef cow should be the opposite...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sun May 08, 2016 4:43 am

Kent posted a reminder at advantage...length, in itself, is of no value in meat animals and should not be a consideration...

http://www.angusjournal.com/articlepdf/0498_beef_logic.pdf
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sat May 14, 2016 1:42 pm

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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sun May 15, 2016 8:30 am

A little more heat would help, but not unless we get more rain to go with it. That commodity is looking pretty sparse just now.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sun May 15, 2016 9:14 am

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Sun May 15, 2016 11:16 am

After a disaster calving heifers to Wagyu this spring , Dan Brown bought a Jersey bull from a grass based dairy...dam is 15 years old still in production cheers he might produce some useful little crossbred cows for beef production in high rainfall country...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Tue May 17, 2016 9:38 pm

Dan`s new bull after Wagyu failed him...top .1% for ce, marbling, milk, fertility, mature wt, ht, and perhaps longevity as his 15 yr old dam is still producing...I bet his feet are good, and he kinda reminds me of Pete...Smile cept Pete was not a ce bull...

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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Paradigm Shift   Tue May 17, 2016 10:53 pm

I hope Dan is only planning on using him for a year to 18 months for natural service. I used a Jersey bull that was raised by a recip heifer that looked very much like this bull. He was gentle and easy to work with until one day when he was about 3 years old. The old dairy farmers warned me about Jersey bulls and I was beginning to think they were wrong, but wow. Fortunately, it was me and not the kids that was out there and he went to town the next day. I haven't used one since, but would consider yearling bulls on heifers and then get rid of the bulls after using for a spring and fall breeding season. I had his mother until she was 17 years old and didn't breed back and still have one of her AI daughters that I am using as a nurse cow if I am feeling energetic and as beef cow if I am not. I think she is 8 or 9 this year. Both gentle and easy to work with and hand milk if desired. My desire to do that has come and gone.
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